Poorly Mouse....

[Mike-Bracknell]

Originally Posted by green granite

Yes it would, hence my suggestion.

It sounds more like a windows explorer problem than anything

A 'pale page' is Windows telling you that an application (e.g. Windows Explorer) is waiting for something. Hence my suggestions earlier in the thread.

[FullOppositeRudder]

Quote:
Originally Posted by green granite
Yes it would, hence my suggestion.

It sounds more like a windows explorer problem than anything

A 'pale page' is Windows telling you that an application (e.g. Windows Explorer) is waiting for something. Hence my suggestions earlier in the thread.

I think that these two comments may well hold a key to identifying the issue.

I've been seeing Windows Explorer fail under pressure at various time in recent months, mostly when I have a few applications open and throw in a couple of Windows Explorer pages for good measure. The result is a frozen computer and <CTL>-<ALT-<DEL> is needed. Windows Explorer is always the cuplrit. Sometimes a message about Dr Watson having difficulties appears, and sometimes a window pops up asking me to send an error report. I did this for a while but eventually tired of the process.

My machine is probably of a similar vintage and heritage to Cameronian's. It's faintly possible that we are seeing a similar problem with different symptoms. I just put mine down to a "Windows thing" and tolerate it as best I can. I do a registry clean every two weeks or so.

Not that this helps of course, but suddenly I see a possible similar pattern. And still no obvious answer. Sorry.

FOR

[Cameronian]

Well, I've had no response from the Windows help forum. I am beginning to suspect that it's because I use neither IE nor Active-X and I'm not about to start now.

Something slightly new has just happened. I opened this page to write this reply and the mouse is working perfectly in it so far (and the page, including the blue bit at the top hasn't gone pale) but I tried to click the "Start" button to open Speccy so as I could list this machines spec. to see if FOR thought that it looked like his (see his last post) and my click didn't work. I'll try again later!

[Cameronian]

I hope that this makes sense!

Operating System
MS Windows XP Home 32-bit SP3
CPU
Intel Pentium D 935
Presler 65nm Technology
RAM
2.0GB Dual-Channel DDR2 @ 334MHz (5-5-5-15)
Motherboard
ASUSTeK Computer INC. P5B (Socket 775) 29 °C
Graphics
ASUS VW192Sÿÿ @ 1280x1024
512MB GeForce 7300 GT (Undefined) 47 °C
Hard Drives
313GB Seagate ST3320620AS (SATA) 29 °C
Optical Drives
HL-DT-ST DVDRAM GSA-H44N SCSI CdRom Device
Audio
SoundMAX Integrated Digital HD Audio
Operating System
MS Windows XP Home 32-bit SP3

[Mike-Bracknell]

Do you have that list of installed programs for us yet?

[Cameronian]

Hi Mike. I have tried to copy the list from the "all Programs" list from the Start menu and also from the install/uninstall list in Control Panel. First, I don't know if either of those is the list you're looking for and, secondly, I haven't managed to copy either list - and far less paste it for your perusal. Some things I can do and others are beyond my ken! Meanwhile I've been up to my knees in attempting to remove Win32.AutoRun.tmp and its consequences from my wife's laptop.....

[Mike-Bracknell]

I need to see the latter list as it'll tell me what is specifically installed on your PC. You won't be able to copy it easily, so I suggest you start transcribing it.

[Cameronian]

Adobe Download Manager
Adobe Flash Player 10 plugin
Adobe Reader 8.2.5
Adobe Reader 8.2.5 CPSID_83708
Apple Application Support
Apple Software Update
avast! Free Antivirus
Belkin Wireless USB Facility
BlueSoleil 5.4.305.0
Camera RAW Plug-in for Epson Creativity Suite
CCleaner
Defraggler
EPSON Attach to Email
EPSON Easy Photo Print
EPSON File Manager
EPSON Printer Software
EPSON Scan Assistant
EPSON Stylus C90_91_D92 Manual
EPSON Web-to-Page
FlashPeak SlimBrowser
Google Earth
High Definition Audio Driver Package - KB888111
Java(TM) 6 Update 22
Logitech Camera Driver
Logitech QuickCam Software
Malwarebytes' AntiMalware
Microsoft Compression Client Pack 1.0 for Windows XP
Microsoft IntelliPoint 6.1
Microsoft IntelliType Pro 6.1
Microsoft Office Home and Student 2007
16 Updates and Security Updates for Office and OneNote
Microsoft Office 2007 Service Pack 2 (SP2)
Microsoft User-Mode Driver Framework Feature Pack 1.0
Microsoft Visual C++ 2005 ATL Update etc.
Microsoft Visual C++ 2005 Redistributable
Microsoft Visual C++ 2008 Redistributable etc.
MozBackup 1.4.9
Mozilla Firefox (3.6.13)
Mozilla Thunderbird (3.1.7)
MSXML 4.0 SP2 (KB***** four of)
MSXML 4.0 SP2 Parser and SDK
Nero 7 Essentials
NVIDIA Drivers
Opera 10.63
PC Inspector File Recovery
PC Probe II
PowerDVD
QuickTime
REALTEK GbE and FE Ethernet PCI-E NIC Driver
Recuva
SoundMAX
SPC 900NC PC Camera
Speccy
Spybot - Search & Destroy
Windows Genuine Advantage Validation Tool (KB892130)
Windows Internet Explorer 7
22 Security Updates for Windows Internet Explorer 7
2 Updates for Windows Internet Explorer 7
1 Hotfix for Windows Internet Explorer 7
Windows Live Essentials
Windows Sign-in Assistant
Windows Live Upload Tool
Windows Media Format 11 Runtime
Windows Media Player 11
Windows Media Player Firefox Plugin
Windows Resource Kit Tools
Innumerable Updates, Security Updates & Hotfixes for XP
Windows Genuine Advantage Notifications (KB905474)
Windows Genuine Advantage Validation Tool (KB892130)
Windows XP Service Pack 3
ZoneAlarm
ZoneAlarm Toolbar

and that's it Mike!

[In rerum natura]

At the risk of my playing Malcolm to your Ogri, have you tried simulating the mouse click from the keyboard?

Use TAB to cycle the focus, SPACE to toggle on/off, ENTER to select/click.

IRN

[Cameronian]

In the nature of things I am not destined for computing greatness! I don't even really understand what you mean, In rerum natura! Ogri has better balance than I and, by the way, I think you are clearly too modest about your own talents!

[Mike-Bracknell]

First things first.

Uninstall ZoneAlarm (uninstall the toolbar first) and use the Windows Firewall.

See if that helps.

Secondly, if that doesn't help, uninstall the Microsoft Intellipoint, and see if that fixes things.

Nothing else jumps out as being problematic from that list, but ZoneAlarm is most probably the culprit. I'd hazard a guess you've mapped a drive somewhere or browsed a network resource in the past, and since then you've blocked it using ZoneAlarm.....leading to Explorer freezing (the symptoms you've described) as it's trying to wait for it's interrogation of the remote resource to finish (which it eventually will do, with an unannounced network timeout, which is what happens when you get control back).

I'd hazard an educated guess that there's nothing at all wrong with your mouse.

[FullOppositeRudder]

Thanks Cameronian for all your hard work - copying across all that data is not an easy task.

I've cooled off somewhat on any connection between your problems and mine, but I did have another Explorer overload freeze this morning just to keep me guessing.

FWIW my system is:
Motherboard: Asus P5G41T-MLX
CPU: Socket 775 Celeron
OS Win XP with SP and all the 'upgrades' as offered.
2 Gb memory
using on board video and sound systems
etc....

I don't see enough similarities to draw a link between the two system at this stage. However I would follow Mike-B's suggestions. I think he is on to something here, but I've run out of puff for the moment anyway.

As always, good luck,
FOR

[Load Toad]

Have you tried hitting it?

[In rerum natura]

The quintessential, alchymical Wintel black box and I don't have a real clue to lead us through the labyrinth (fortunately others do). This linked text [taken from a comment by *jake* appended to a recent El Reg article *FBI 'planted backdoor' in OpenBSD*] ACM Classic: Reflections on Trusting Trust can be followed by a general reader (me) and should scare everyone.

My mind-set is that everything is hardware and that software is maya, illusion. I had assumed that you were using a PS/2 keyboard. Clearly the external mouse is fit and well ... I was considering the path taken by a notional differential voltage as it propagated from the USB port across the motherboard to some unknown final destination there to be read as a Mouse_Event_Multi or whatever the grownups call it. If you could reproduce the failure along a different signal path from a keyboard controller via PS/2 then you could be almost certain that the problem lay within the Windows environment. The default keyboard can be used (within limits) to control both the mouse pointer and the buttons ... I was suggesting you gave it a bash when next the error condition was encountered. I have seen apparent software (i.e. hardware) faults that only manifest in certain mysterious, albeit reproducible, switching states. I have not checked the block diagram for your specific motherboard but they are all much of a muchness.

However, the one thing that Microsoft always got right (both hardware and software) was the mouse. I've tested various operating systems and rejected some within the first minute simply on the basis of the *feel* of the mouse. If you want to mess up someone's day then give them a crabby mouse to work with ... so empathy.

As an aside, I read in one of the PC comix that the Intel 65 nm process had been less than successful (now they tell us) ... mine's the beat-up Zilog (I was happier then). I had to use my fingers today to work out which was larger, 2/3 or 3/5, so that's probably Why Johnny Can't Add.

PS: I don't deserve hitting ... soy una vida en ser. Malcolm always meant well.

[Cameronian]

Mike, thank you for your thoughts. Does your explanation involving the freezing of Windows Explorer square with the instant and 100% reliably effective resolution of the problem by the two step closing of Task Bar? Will Windows Firewall behave differently from ZoneAlarm (and is it as good at its job?).

In rerum natura, you've confirmed that you're a better man than I by being able to pen all of that in the morning!

[green granite]

Rather than uninstalling zone alarm just untick it in the start-up menu, reboot and start windows firewall, that way you can go back to it if not running it makes no difference.

Is Windows FW as good as Zone alarm, not in my opinion, as it lets anything connect to the net where as ZA asks first.

[Mike-Bracknell]

Originally Posted by green granite

Rather than uninstalling zone alarm just untick it in the start-up menu, reboot and start windows firewall, that way you can go back to it if not running it makes no difference.

Is Windows FW as good as Zone alarm, not in my opinion, as it lets anything connect to the net where as ZA asks first.

Ignore the above. ZoneAlarm hooks itself into the network stack, so any disabling by unticking doesn't actually remove it (and you get more into these sort of issues because you lose the user interface but the PC keeps the hooks, and blocks, in the network stack).

And yes, the task bar (part of Windows Explorer) being restarted would square with being able to regain control.

Windows Firewall is "adequate". It depends upon which version of Windows you're running as to it's abilities:

With the Windows XP version it will block all incoming network traffic initiated from outside but will (unless configured) allow all outbound traffic initiated from the machine itself (which is fine unless you already have malicious software already on the machine).

With the Windows Vista & Windows 7 versions, you can configure it to block both ways if necessary.

The reasons I believe it's the best firewall to use, is because for 99.99% of people here they're using it behind a router which provides NAT and a firewall already. These people would only *need* a firewall on the PC if they were to have a laptop and take it to a coffeeshop etc where they were in danger of sitting on the same wet piece of string as other coffee drinkers with dubious virus protection habits, or in some cases opened up to the elements without it's own firewall.

The Windows firewall, with it's general abilities of blocking incoming traffic but letting outgoing traffic work means in the main that it's immune to user error whereby the firewall would ask a question of the user such as "Windows Explorer is trying to access the internet. Should I block it or not?". Obviously, for the uninitiated, the answer is "yes, block it". However, that's probably what you've just done and it's rendered your computer broken to a certain extent. The Windows firewall on the other hand "knows" how Windows does networking, and "knows" what your individual PC has installed on it in the way of applications, and finally it gets updated with Windows. All 3 of these methods mean it's almost impossible to get the symptoms you're describing with ZoneAlarm.

Now, if you take the above with the information that ZoneAlarm blocks inbound and outbound traffic by default, and only allows through the firewall certain holes which you, the user, define. You can then see that since you're the human element in this jigsaw you're the most likely element not to be in full possession of the facts when asked to make a decision such as the one described in the previous paragraph. So technically, yes, it's a more 'secure' firewall than the Windows firewall, but when you put it into context that it places a LOT more emphasis on relying upon you, the user, to decide things which could either block something you rely upon or, worse still, open up a hole (forever more) for something you shouldn't really leave open, then you can see why I think things like ZoneAlarm can sometimes be worse than the hackers that it attempts to protect you from.

Remember, Windows O/Ss do a LOT of 'networking' behind the scenes that you may not be aware of. Block that at your peril.

HTH.
Mike.

[jcjeant]

Hi,

The Windows firewall under winxp is useless if you are not connected via a router (don't block outgoing traffic)
If you use a modem I suggest you keep a third party firewall running and disable the Windows one.

Fixed for you

Remember, Windows O/Ss do a LOT of 'networking' behind the scenes that you may not be aware of. Don't Block that at your peril.

[Cameronian]

Hi again Mike. I completely uninstalled ZoneAlarm (entirely unapplied toolbar first) and activated the Windows firewall. I'm sorry to say that within fifteen minutes the mouse was doing exactly the same as under ZoneAlarm.

One thing that I hadn't posted was that before making this change I noticed that on occasions, while the mouse worked apparently correctly within the page in use, it completely failed to have any effect if any button on the taskbar (including "Start") was clicked. When returned to the page in use, it went back to working correctly once more.

Because I am unsure whether or not my Spanish "Telefónica" (national telephone company) router includes a hardware firewall or not, I would feel more comfortable (rightly or wrongly) reinstalling ZoneAlarm once again and deactivating the apparently one-way Windows firewall, even though I imagine that ZoneAlarm will have to begin its education process afresh. Don't hesitate to tell me if I am mistaken.

[Mike-Bracknell]

Originally Posted by Cameronian

Hi again Mike. I completely uninstalled ZoneAlarm (entirely unapplied toolbar first) and activated the Windows firewall. I'm sorry to say that within fifteen minutes the mouse was doing exactly the same as under ZoneAlarm.

One thing that I hadn't posted was that before making this change I noticed that on occasions, while the mouse worked apparently correctly within the page in use, it completely failed to have any effect if any button on the taskbar (including "Start") was clicked. When returned to the page in use, it went back to working correctly once more.

Because I am unsure whether or not my Spanish "Telefónica" (national telephone company) router includes a hardware firewall or not, I would feel more comfortable (rightly or wrongly) reinstalling ZoneAlarm once again and deactivating the apparently one-way Windows firewall, even though I imagine that ZoneAlarm will have to begin its education process afresh. Don't hesitate to tell me if I am mistaken.

Sorry to hear it didn't work. I would suggest your next port of call would be to create a new profile on your PC and see if it does the same in that. If it does, then a rebuild would be in order.

As regards the firewall, assuming your Telefonica 'device' contains the word 'router' in it's declaration and you're not using cable, then you'll be using a private IP address anyway (courtesy of NAT), and as such nigh on immune to hacking from outside. I wouldn't worry until you get to the bottom of the troubleshooting, unless it's a laptop and you wish to take it elsewhere. For what it's worth i've used the Windows Firewall myself and for all of my customers (i'm an IT Director for an IT support company) for the last umpteen years (since it was launched) and not had ANY reasons to have any other firewall. Besides, i'd say it's 50/50 that you'd need to rebuild the laptop to get rid of the issue, so it could easily wait until then.

Hope that helps