Broadband/phone packages UK

[mixture]

Aren't AOL Carphone Warehouse these days ?

[al446]

Please do not take my post #2 as an endorsement of Plusnet, it is far from that but I am aware that my problems are down to distance by copper from exchange and BT throttling my speed. PN have no influence on this as they simply resell a product. Why Zen, who are LLU, can do this (speed over 512 in contrast to PN's 18ish) and BT cannot I have no idea. I believe that in circumstances other than mine PN can be quite good.
Don't know about AOL these days, I just hate their software which is like herpes of the computer, you will never get rid of it.

Future for me is either back to Zen or use mobile PAYG for speed plus a LLU supplier with no d/l cap for volume.

Phone is a different matter.

[390cruise]

Not Aol

Mixture

I think you might find Talk Talk are part of Carphone Warehouse rather than AOL. I believe AOL are part of Time Warner.

Talk Talk appear to use some AOL software.

390

[Mike-Bracknell]

Being a bit optimisitc aren't we MB.....

- indeed - he obviously believes Mr Vaizey and Hunt and BT (small club), although it may well happen in Bracknell I suppose.

Out 'ere in t'sticks it will be a decade before FTTC arrives, I reckon, and FTTP- well, I may get it piped to my coffin. Obviously MB has no idea of the state of our 'local copper' (and I don't mean PC Plod).

Not really. I know at least 3 friends who've already got it, in Manchester and Hampshire. My exchange is scheduled for December 2010.

I know there's a few teething issues (like the rollout logistics are back to the bad old days of early BT rollouts), and maybe Dec 2010 is a little optimistic, but first quarter 2011 is a little more realistic, and that's when we're intending to start reselling it (not through BT).

Please do not take my post #2 as an endorsement of Plusnet, it is far from that but I am aware that my problems are down to distance by copper from exchange and BT throttling my speed. PN have no influence on this as they simply resell a product. Why Zen, who are LLU, can do this (speed over 512 in contrast to PN's 18ish) and BT cannot I have no idea

LLU providers have a difference from the BT offering thus:

1) Different DSLAMs in the exchange (differing manuf/cost/quality/firmware)
2) Different backhaul from the exchange to their network

So, as for #1 your modem/router can sync at a specific speed based upon the efficiency of it's handshake between it and the DSLAM, and as for #2 if you sync at a high enough speed then don't get enough of a real-life speed over it then it's to do with the backhaul being either too small, too congested, or both.

e.g. IF you had an Alcatel chipset in your home router, and your exchange LLU provider uses an Alcatel DSLAM, and you're both using router and DSLAM firmware designed for proper interop between themselves, and you're the only LLU user from that specific provider in the exchange, and the backhaul from the exchange to the ISP (and onto the internet) is greater than your modem sync rate, THEN you're going to get the fastest speed available.

...and any deviation from the above optimum scenario *can* have a greater or lesser effect upon the speed you'll get.

e.g. If your modem is Alcatel and your DSLAM is Fujitsu it may not be able to sync at the same rate as an Alcatel-Alcatel or Fujitsu-Fujitsu pairing, or if your ISP hasn't kept up it's interop work with the modem/router manufacturers or hasn't patched the DSLAMs then you might get a lower sync as well. Then despite the sync rate, if you have more users competing for the same bandwidth provided by the ISP through the entire length of the journey to the internet, you're going to get a lower bandwidth than expected anyway. Remember, the contention ratio basically relates to the amount of customer connections sharing the same ISP bandwidth.

HTH.
Mike.

[mixture]

MB,

Manchester and Hampshire

Manchester doesn't count as it's next best to London in terms of availability of whatever connectivity your heart desires. I suspect Hampshire might not be too bad off either, being affluent commuter belt territory.

I'm taking a more wait and see attitude.....I suspect there might be some skeletons awaiting to emerge from the closet..... theory vs practice and all that.

LLU providers have a difference from the BT offering thus:

1) Different DSLAMs in the exchange (differing manuf/cost/quality/firmware)
2) Different backhaul from the exchange to their network

You missed (at least) one.....

3) Different network policies (traffic shaping etc.) and product definitions (contention etc.)

390cruise

BBC NEWS | Business | Carphone Warehouse buying AOL UK (11 October 2006)

I rest my case.

[Crashpad]

Originally Posted by 390cruise

Hi Crashpad

If he has a BT line then he has a number of options

390

More info please.....Doing a postcode and line check on all the majors indicates they don't provide in his area....Only BT and TT....If I could get him something unlimited for the same price TT are offering with phone and BB then result all round....

[jimtherev]

Originally Posted by al446

Don't know about AOL these days, I just hate their software which is like herpes of the computer, you will never get rid of it.

Agreed. Stopped using their ideosyncratic perverse apology for software two computers ago.
But then I use Outlook as part of my calorie controlled diet - which will probably enrage a whole heap of other people.

[mixture]

Crashpad,

More info please.....Doing a postcode and line check on all the majors indicates they don't provide in his area....Only BT and TT....If I could get him something unlimited for the same price TT are offering with phone and BB then result all round....

Quite simple really.

There are two ways ADSL to end up in your house. LLU Backhaul (using copper provided by BT Openreach) and BT Backhaul (by enabling ADSL signal on your common BT Retail PSTN - a.k.a "phone" - line).

Therefore, by definition, anyone who isn't a LLU operator will be using BT backhaul. LLU operators being : AOL, Be, Bulldog, Talk Talk, Sky/Easynet, Edge, Tiscali, Orange.

(Alright, perhaps a little bit of a over-simplification in the above paragraph because LLU operators can easily also operate BT backhaul in parallel in order to capture customers that they would otherwise miss ... and most do this. The other over simiplification is you've got to weed out the LLU resellers ... who are just middle-men).

Might be worth you trying the broadband checker at SamKnows.... SamKnows - Broadband Availability Checker

If SamKnows shows any of the BT Wholesale products as being available to you, then the above statement about non-LLU operators applies.

[BOAC]

Crashpad - your 'mate's' situation is identical to mine, and fairly common - the local 'parent' exchange (ADSL2=8mb) has only TT as an LLU operator- they do seem to be the most common in the LLU market. My 'exchange' (which is actually a dark and dusty corner of the parent exchange) is not 'unbundled' as there is no 'commercial interest', so all B/band is actually BT broadband however packaged by the many ISPs, and thus reliant on the rubbish lines along which it travels and subject to the contention allocation of the ISP within the BT pot. We watch larger settlements within 15km of us go up to 20mb with the odd tear in our eyes . We are looking at all other options at the moment because of the potential decade or so before the BT woolly mammoth wakes up (or is woken up) including a private cable supply and wireless distribution.

We are not in Manchester or Hampshire.

[Crashpad]

Samknows says that only BT wholesale, BT wholesale max and TT LLU are available.
He needs unlimited as his son has just acquired an Xbox and once he's into online gaming with his mates a limit will go out the window pretty quick I imagine.
The TT package will save him around £80 a quarter as it includes line rental and all phone calls (not just evening and weekends) so he's very interested in that.
As the speed achievable is only around 1.5Mb then I don't think he should really angst over it.
I guess it's the penalty you pay for living in the sticks!!

[mixture]

Crashpad,

Samknows says that only BT wholesale, BT wholesale max

Which means every man and his dog should be able to reach you (Zen, Nildram etc.)

Perhaps your problem is your distance from the local exchange. Some providers public checkers will say "no service" because of the distance from the exchange, simply due to the fact that although theoreticallly achievable, in practice, sites that are far from the exchanges are a right pain in the neck ! In the residential market, the ISPs want easy volume, not troublesome individual cases.

[cats_five]

If distance from the exchange is the issue, you might like to try Wizards - a small two-man and a dog ISP. Yes, they are middle-men, but if that's all you can get... I originally used them for exactly that reason, and didn't change when I moved to a house where I can see the exchange out of my front door as I like being able to ring & talk to Hugh or Chris. They were quite helpful as well about me prizing a domain from the grasp of an awful ISP that wasn't renewing it.

wizards: Wizards

PS one of them is Hugh and he has a strong interest in aviation, the Vulcan and so on.

[Crashpad]

Originally Posted by mixture

Crashpad,



Which means every man and his dog should be able to reach you (Zen, Nildram etc.)

Perhaps your problem is your distance from the local exchange. Some providers public checkers will say "no service" because of the distance from the exchange, simply due to the fact that although theoreticallly achievable, in practice, sites that are far from the exchanges are a right pain in the neck ! In the residential market, the ISPs want easy volume, not troublesome individual cases.

Chasing around he can get the resellers but none are offering the package TT are tempting him with. I suppose when you are on a budget £80 a quarter means a lot....
I'll leave it up to him I think....Too much chance of the 'it was your suggestion' further down the line..

[newswatcher]

TalkTalk

I have been with TalkTalk for 4 years now. Previously with Onetel, which TalkTalk took over. I pay 22GBP per month, which includes unlimited calls(not 0870,0845 etc), broadband, and line rental. During this time, I have had three outages, with a maximum of 2 hours. Customer service is frustrating, but usually delivers.

My distance from exchange limits my BB speed to 2MB, but I understand that the BT roll-out has reached the junction box at the end of the road!

I await further developments!

[Mike-Bracknell]

Mixture...

Alright, perhaps a little bit of a over-simplification in the above paragraph

Can I jump on your 99% accurate info for the 1% missed for clarity too?



BOAC...

We are not in Manchester or Hampshire.

I didn't say you were. I said that the rollout HAS ALREADY HAPPENED in those two places at least, and so IT IS COMING. That was the ONLY reason I mentioned Manchester and Hampshire.

[BOAC]

MB - I'm well up to speed() with the 'roll-out' and awaiting with passing interest the 'upgrade' new list to be published end Sep/early Oct (we are not on it, a well-placed source tells me, nor will we be next year) BUT the problem those not in 'Manchester' or 'Hampshire' face is that the wait, in some cases for broadband at all, is indeterminate. Our folk here on 'dial-up only' have seen the 'promise' of 2012 go back already to 2015. We don't even have a real 'exchange'.

[mixture]

MB,

Can I jump on your 99% accurate info for the 1% missed for clarity too?

At least provide a Visio diagram and PowerPoint presentation if you're going to do that.

[BOAC]

Originally Posted by Crashpad

He needs unlimited

- just be aware that you will find even with 'unlimited' ISP packages, a 'fair use' policy will be in the small print and they will probably penalise your lad if he is into heavy 'gaming' on-line.

[mixture]

just be aware that you will find even with 'unlimited' ISP packages, a 'fair use' policy will be in the small print and they will probably penalise your lad if he is into heavy 'gaming' on-line.

I will second what BOAC says, it is very rare to find residential ADSL products that don't have a 'fair use' policy where you will find yourself rate-limited and/or packet-shaped for exceeding it.

I beleive Zen were one of few exceptions to the rule, not sure if they've changed their policies for home users now though.

[Mike-Bracknell]

MB - I'm well up to speed() with the 'roll-out' and awaiting with passing interest the 'upgrade' new list to be published end Sep/early Oct (we are not on it, a well-placed source tells me, nor will we be next year) BUT the problem those not in 'Manchester' or 'Hampshire' face is that the wait, in some cases for broadband at all, is indeterminate. Our folk here on 'dial-up only' have seen the 'promise' of 2012 go back already to 2015. We don't even have a real 'exchange'.

I don't dispute that, but the reality is that BT have sunk a LOT of cash into this rollout, and are really pushing it. If therefore it is successful, and barring any protectionism spats with Ofcom, you should see the rollout schedule ripped up again (like it has been several times so far already).....as other well placed sources tell me.

Anyway, my original point still stands - don't get yourself stuck in a 12 month contract without knowing better, as faster things are *around the corner


(*the corner being nearer or further, depending upon your affinity to Manchester/Hampshire).

I will second what BOAC says, it is very rare to find residential ADSL products that don't have a 'fair use' policy where you will find yourself rate-limited and/or packet-shaped for exceeding it.

I beleive Zen were one of few exceptions to the rule, not sure if they've changed their policies for home users now though.

You'd be lucky anyway. BT are due to roll out QoS on their network shortly too. Now how they differentiate between EF-marked packets from a VoIP setup versus some twazzock pushing EF-marked torrents is another matter.