AC is heading down the wrong path

[Craic Ore]

I was sent this article to comment on. At first I thought it must be a typo. But I went to AC's website and sure enough, it was true. 458 seats in the new 300ERs. OMG, do you all know how cramped its going to be back there? I've operated versions with 420 2 class, but didn't think it possible to fit that many in. Unless you're going full on sardine in there.

I don't think AC will be able to buy their way into the Skytrax "best airline NA" much longer with this disturbing trend. There's going to be a mountain of complaints over this one.

When airline service is this bad, it?s hardly worth complaining - The Globe and Mail

Boeing 777-300ER (77W) - Our Fleet - aircanada.com
SeatGuru Seat Map Air Canada Boeing 777-300ER (77W) Three Class

Good luck AC, you're going to need it.
CO

[TowerDog]

31" pitch in economy, ouch.
Even Tower Air had 36" with 480 Pax in the old jumbos..

[clunckdriver]

With "Scumwing" getting a free ride by not having to pay training costs is it any wonder that the other players will have to resort to this sort of thing to compete? The "race to the bottom" is well under way in Canada, this includes crew pay and working conditions Im afraid, Thank TC for turning a blind eye to this gross breach of the CARS!

[J.O.]

And which CARS would that be?

[clunckdriver]

Car421.07 .To save you looking it up it is pretty clear that a FLVC is not to be used in place of a Canadian Lic if it doesn't fit into the above CAR under items {a} to {j} what TC is allowing Scumwing to do is clearly against the letter and spirit of the CARs.This by the way is also the opinion of the aviation lawyer who represented my company for many years, this opinion has been confirmed by other qualified law firms, but its OK, in Canada TC is above the law, or not willing to stand up to Lisa Rait, thus risking their nice indexed pensions.

[J.O.]

Enough with the rhetoric and wild accusations. Let's look at what the applicable regulations and standards actually say. Bold type is mine for emphasis.

CAR 401.07 Validation of Foreign Licences

(1) Subject to Section 6.71 of the Act, if the holder of a foreign flight crew licence issued by a contracting state other than Canada meets the applicable requirements set out in the personnel licensing standards and does not reside in Canada, the Minister shall, on receipt of an application submitted in the form and manner set out in those standards, issue a foreign licence validation certificate to the holder of the licence.

(2) The Minister shall, in accordance with the personnel licensing standards, specify in a foreign licence validation certificate the privileges that may be exercised by the holder of the certificate.

CASS 421.07 Validation of Foreign Licences

(1) Issue of Foreign Licence Validation Certificate

(a) A Foreign Licence Validation Certificate shall be issued to an applicant who provides the following:

(i) a foreign licence valid under the laws of a contracting state and valid for the privileges requested; and

(ii) a letter requesting issue of the Foreign Licence Validation Certificate and specifying the purpose for which the foreign licence is to be validated.

(b) The Foreign Licence Validation Certificate shall normally be issued for a period of one year from the date of issue. A shorter period may be granted upon the applicant’s request.

(c) If the medical validity period of the licence issued by a contracting state other than Canada is longer than the ICAO standard, the validation shall be limited to Canadian airspace.

(2) Purposes for Which Foreign Licence Validation Certificates May Be Issued

(a) for the holder to undergo a flight test;

(b) for private recreational flying;

(c) for ferry of an aircraft registered in Canada to or from a foreign country;

(d) for the holder to give type rating training on an aircraft registered in Canada to the registered owner, or to Canadian flight crew employed by the registered owner;

(e) for the holder to receive training in a Canadian registered aircraft;

(f) for operation of aircraft registered in a foreign state under the operating certificate of a Canadian carrier provided that the privileges are limited to the type of aircraft being operated;

(g) for operation of Canadian aircraft on Canadian commercial air services in urgent circumstances; such as fire suppression operations, emergency agricultural and forestry aerial application, airlift in relief of domestic natural disasters, and search and rescue operations;

(h) for commercial air services operated entirely within a foreign country where pilots holding a licence from that country may have their licence validated for operation of Canadian registered aircraft in that country;

(i) for the operation of aircraft registered in Canada on lease to foreign carriers;

(j) for reasons other than those mentioned above where approval may be given if, in the opinion of the Minister, it is in the public interest and not likely to affect aviation safety.

CAR 401.07 is pretty clear. If the applicant meets the requirements, the minister shall issue the FLVC. This is the same as any other application submitted to the Minister. If the applicant meets the conditions, our legal system requires the Minister to extend the privileges that the applicant has applied for.

That regulation also requires the Minister to set out the privileges that may be exercised as stated in the standard you quoted (421.07), which is also quite clear. Paragraph (j) allows the Minister to extend the FLVC for privileges that are in the public interest. You can argue the merits of the Minister's public interest decision all you want, but you cannot argue that the Minister (or TC personnel) are turning a blind eye to a gross breach of the regulations.

[Niallo]

The OP asks: "OMG, do you all know how cramped its going to be back there?"

Well, word is getting out about how uncomfortable Air Canada's High Density 777 is for both passengers and flight attendants, and in all classes.
Read all the adverse comments on Seat Guru and Skytrax.

Air Canada was gloating about the low seat mile costs of this plane when it came into service.
But what use is a low seat mile cost for an empty plane, after passengers catch on and learn to avoid it?

[clunckdriver]

On our corporate aircraft we have removed two seats as we just don't normally fly with a full load, you should hear the compliments when we fly folks who are used to "cattle class" when traveling, they can stretch out or put their feet up . This begs the question, is there a place for a one class, lots of seat room service for a premium price? Many have tried and failed , but that was before the legacy airlines were forced into the "race to the bottom" and aircraft flew sixteen hour non stop flights. Any one out there care to comment?

[evansb]

[Townie]

They are rising to the top of some surveys.

Minimal personal space and rude flight attendants on a long haul airplane. Sounds like a great combination.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/air-c...inds-1.1789350

[clunckdriver]

You know what guys/galls? Ive been deadheading and a fare paying passenger since 1954, and I have NEVER run into a rude flight attendant, but I have seen hundreds of pax behave like complete A--Holes ! As for the "airline awards and surveys" having been in the industry for a long time I can state with certainly that they are not worth the paper they are printed on, this includes the outfit which has a person filling out papers praising their employer, and passing it on to the various media, along with free tickets! this in spite of recent fiascos of lost baggage and stranded pax, and $300 compensation aint going to change a thing. Now, nothing is going to change leg room space , blame the bean counters for this, they, not true leaders, are now making these decisions , I cant fathom that there are enough stupid folks out there who still want to go into this industry, my generation had the best of it, but then we ran things under the leadership of some "greats", who didn't give themselves huge rewards for doing their jobs. Of across the pond tonight, can hardly wait to contort my old bones into a few inches of leg room for seven hours!

[Left Coaster]

Why, do you think, that the adds for seat sales are for cheap tickets, and not the fantastic economy seating and service? Demand. In addition, the advertising money spent by most carriers is on how great their premium classes are…that's where most operators make the money…the returns are huge for the effort made. Those who travel in Economy are simply "asses in the seats" ( oops! ) The big seat revenues are where the serious advertising is aimed. In most cases…in my opinion…I think…maybe...

[Wolfdog]

The more seats they stuff on, the better chance I have of getting a seat when I jump seat. I'll ride to Sydney a bit cramped for $50! Could it get any more selfish than this? LOL
WD

[Capetonian]

I haven't travelled on AC for at least 10 years, and that is because my previous experiences had been so bad, on both transatlantic and domestics. A great pity and certainly not me seeing the worst as I like Canada and the Canadians, but the airline's service, specially on the ground, left a lot to be desired. I think AC had an identity crisis at least on domestic/regional routes and was never sure whether to be a legacy carrier or a LoCo. A sure way to lose customers at both ends of the spectrum.

My last trips to Canada have been on LOT, Swiss, AirTransat, Lufthansa, and KLM, all significantly better than my recalled experiences of AC.

[connies4ever]

AC is headed down the wrong path

Clunckdriver-

Spot on comment. AC is my airline of choice (and there is choice in Canada)...good service, good schedule (usually). The only problem is if YYZ wx's out.

WS still with the stupid preflight announcements. Moreso, as they grow they're starting to run into many of the problems a legacy encounters, usually due to miscommunication. BTW, any early returns on the YYT-DUB transat service ?

The high density 777s, to my knowledge, are only intended for 6-8 hour segments that are high volume, low yield (i.e., YUL-CDG) so they can compete with Transat and Corsair, for example. As well, there are only 5 in the picture (currently) and no plans (currently) to convert already delivered 777s. That may of course change over time. Many operators around the world are going to 10-abreast Y.

Humourous aside, internally at AC the new 777s are often being referred to as 'slaveships'.

[Married a Canadian]

The only problem is if YYZ wx's out.

Which to be fair to Air Canada...is not something they can do a LOT about (unless they try to run a normal operation in bad weather!).

As a "foreigner" I find all the talk about Air Canada interesting/educational/amusing etc. As a Brit...all I need to do is replace "Air Canada" with "British airways"..and you hear exactly the same stories in the UK (minus the french speaking problems of course). Legacy carriers will ALWAYS cop the most abuse (well they did till Ryanair came along!)

[Una Due Tfc]

The Westjet YYT-DUB route starts next month and runs to October. They sold every seat in under 4 hours I believe. Transat, Rouge and Aer Lingus are already flying DUB-YYZ daily so they have done well by the looks of it.

[Niallo]

13 Hours on a High Density 777!

"The high density 777s, to my knowledge, are only intended for 6-8 hour segments that are high volume, low yield (i.e., YUL-CDG) so they can compete with Transat and Corsair, for example."

Perhaps that is what they were intended for.

But AC is now using them for YVR-LHR 9+hrs, and YVR HKG 13+hrs.

No thank you AC!

[altiplano]

Humourous aside, internally at AC the new 777s are often being referred to as 'slaveships'.

Dubbed by the super senior YUL FAs because <gasp> they had to work a bit harder on the way to their Paris layover and no middle galley meant carrying the coffee further...

I've ridden on the new 777s and I don't know what the fuss is about. It's a very comfortable brand new plane. Seems the people complaining on this thread haven't actually been on it yet. I guess my one complaint would be the 6% higher probability of getting a middle seat.

[clunckdriver]

Well, Im awake at the crack of dawn, being a little Jet Lagged having just been to the UK and back on an Air Canada 777 in the configuration under discussion here, here is what I found, and in spite of being employed by :Big Red" for many years I will be as impartial as one can be! {1} The flight Eastbound was almost chock full, so with the two door loading system it didn't entail too much time getting to ones seat, the only delays were caused by SLF who seem to turn off their brains on entering an airport, the usual stuff of not being able to read a seat number or wanting to change seats and sit in First Class having paid an economy fare {2} The first big surprise was that on sitting down I found that there was actually more leg room than I dreamed possible, so on investigating it became obvious that someone at Boeing has been thinking out of the box, due to headroom not being a problem they have lengthened the seat legs {made of extruded and milled Aluminum by the way} so that one has all sorts of forward space and one can shove ones legs fully forward without any problem, also they have a bar across the front of each seat about five inches of the floor so the person in front of you cant restrict your space by shoving junk under his/her seat, if there is any stuff down there blocking the space it belongs to the person in that seat. The recline is not quite what I would like, but if I want this I should be willing to pay a premium fare, which for a six hour flight I wont be doing.{3} The F/As seemed to get everything done and when questioned said they much preferred the aircraft to the Airbus. {4} Now the negative, when sitting in the center four seats its bloody hard to reach the fresh air vents and lights when either need adjusting, one has to stand to reach them, not so in the seats on the outside as the cabin walls are much lower there. {5} The entertainment controls are in the arm rests, its very easy to inadvertently lean ones elbows on them which either screws up what you were watching or activates the F/A call button, {ask me how I know!} also the symbols are way too small to be read in poor light as when the cabin is in "sleep Mode". I must admit I was expecting "cattle car" conditions but was pleasantly surprised how the engineers have avoided this, the last trip over the pond was in an Airbus, to me the cabin on the 777 beats the Bus hands down, and by the way, ALL the AC employees were great, perhaps some who rant on about AC should maybe look in the mirror and ask themselves if they might just be the problem?