A pilot’s quest to remain at the top
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good on Transport Canada for keeping the age 60 rule and not cowtowing
to modern ageism politics like the rest of the world-especially Europe!
to modern ageism politics like the rest of the world-especially Europe!
Thread Starter
Some More Reader Comments from the Globe and Mail:
wingman444
This comment is hidden because you have chosen to ignore wingman444.
Show DetailsHide Details
To the pilot in question, you didn't seem to have a problem when those above you, retired at 60 and made way for people like yourself to move up the ladder. Now that you're there, you wanna stay some more? Good luck trying to get along with the rest of your crew for last month at AC. I know, i'm one of them.
Since you mentioned that now you'd be flying for Turkish Airlines, I felt that it was only right that they knew what they were in for, so this link was sent to the DFO at Turkish Airlines.
Name withheld
wingman444
10:23 AM on March 13, 2011[/font]
This comment is hidden because you have chosen to ignore wingman444.
Show DetailsHide Details
GREED!
wingman444
This comment is hidden because you have chosen to ignore wingman444.
Show DetailsHide Details
To the pilot in question, you didn't seem to have a problem when those above you, retired at 60 and made way for people like yourself to move up the ladder. Now that you're there, you wanna stay some more? Good luck trying to get along with the rest of your crew for last month at AC. I know, i'm one of them.
Since you mentioned that now you'd be flying for Turkish Airlines, I felt that it was only right that they knew what they were in for, so this link was sent to the DFO at Turkish Airlines.
Name withheld
wingman444
10:23 AM on March 13, 2011[/font]
This comment is hidden because you have chosen to ignore wingman444.
Show DetailsHide Details
GREED!
Last edited by a330pilotcanada; 13th Mar 2011 at 14:59. Reason: Clarity
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: home
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So, you built a contract agreement based on defeered income and mandatory retirement at 60. If you want to change one, you got to change both. Otherwise it would be discremination based on seniority. Fair enough old boys, fly 'til you die but you sure need to share the pie.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So, you built a contract agreement based on defeered income and mandatory retirement at 60. If you want to change one, you got to change both. Otherwise it would be discremination based on seniority. Fair enough old boys, fly 'til you die but you sure need to share the pie.
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A330 Pilot,
I would bet the farm all these comments are a result of an initiative from the AC pilots PRIVATE forum to try and discredit the FlyPast60 movement.
The only thing achieved was to bring discredit to a once proud profession by showing how ignorant and immature they all are by lies, half truths and innuendo.
Congratulations
. Once again AC pilots denigrate themselves in the public eye through sheer stupidity.
MTK
I would bet the farm all these comments are a result of an initiative from the AC pilots PRIVATE forum to try and discredit the FlyPast60 movement.
The only thing achieved was to bring discredit to a once proud profession by showing how ignorant and immature they all are by lies, half truths and innuendo.
Congratulations
. Once again AC pilots denigrate themselves in the public eye through sheer stupidity.MTK
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,306
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mack, It seems that the pilot in question is responsible for all the negative PR, he did, aparentley without clearing it with AC, give an interview to the media which has generated such a backlash from fellow Canadians who can only dream of such pension/bennifits/ life style.In the meantime it will be interesting to see how the financial hurt to the junior pilots is handled. So glad Im retired, will go to work on Weds in my little twin, make a good return on investment, fly with a well paid motivated F/O who with any luck will take my job in the near future, {The final retirment flight}
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Found in Toronto
Posts: 615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A330 Pilot,
I would bet the farm all these comments are a result of an initiative from the AC pilots PRIVATE forum to try and discredit the FlyPast60 movement.
The only thing achieved was to bring discredit to a once proud profession by showing how ignorant and immature they all are by lies, half truths and innuendo.
Congratulations . Once again AC pilots denigrate themselves in the public eye through sheer stupidity.
MTK
I would bet the farm all these comments are a result of an initiative from the AC pilots PRIVATE forum to try and discredit the FlyPast60 movement.
The only thing achieved was to bring discredit to a once proud profession by showing how ignorant and immature they all are by lies, half truths and innuendo.
Congratulations
. Once again AC pilots denigrate themselves in the public eye through sheer stupidity.MTK
The dollar value of his salary or pension has no bearing on this story. Everyone is missing one major point. Flying past age 60 is NOT about money or greed. If the pilot in question is forced to retire at age 60 and then flies for Turkish, he will make MORE money and be a drain on the ACPA pension fund.
If he is allowed to continue flying at Air Canada past age 60, he will make LESS money and actually reduce the strain on the ACPA pension fund.
This story is really about basic human dignity, and the basic human right not to be discriminated against on the basis of age.
The only "greedy" ones are the junior pilots who are clamoring for their turn at the higher paying jobs. Just another sign of the impatience of youth. Since it's inception ACPA has time and time again shown itself to be driven by a collective sense of self-entitlement.
Sad really.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To carry on flying past 60 with a huge pension that not even half of Canadians can dream off is pretty sad when one mentions that it is his way of life and that, if he stops flying, he will disapeared, i.e. die. Those pilots have no interest in their life beside working. It is pretty sad to have only work to keep you alive....They totally forgot to enjoy life...May be theu do not know what life is...
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Found in Toronto
Posts: 615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To carry on flying past 60 with a huge pension that not even half of Canadians can dream off is pretty sad when one mentions that it is his way of life and that, if he stops flying, he will disapeared, i.e. die. Those pilots have no interest in their life beside working. It is pretty sad to have only work to keep you alive....They totally forgot to enjoy life...May be they do not know what life is...
Why is that so hard for you to understand?
.
Last edited by Lost in Saigon; 14th Mar 2011 at 17:31.
Thread Starter
Good Afternoon MTK.
To get that many a/c pilots out on short notice would make hearding cats easy.
It is your "poster boy" who used large deck guns to punch holes through the deck with the average canadian people. Take a look at
Stats Canada for average income in the country than you can see his hardship would not resonate with the average Canadian.
If you are to have an effective p/r campaign pick a informed balanced individual to make the point.
Personally the issue will be decided by the Supreme Court of Canada.
Oh myself I could care less how it plays out...............
To get that many a/c pilots out on short notice would make hearding cats easy.
It is your "poster boy" who used large deck guns to punch holes through the deck with the average canadian people. Take a look at
Stats Canada for average income in the country than you can see his hardship would not resonate with the average Canadian.
If you are to have an effective p/r campaign pick a informed balanced individual to make the point.
Personally the issue will be decided by the Supreme Court of Canada.
Oh myself I could care less how it plays out...............
Last edited by a330pilotcanada; 14th Mar 2011 at 19:44. Reason: clarity
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Calgary
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Oh myself I could care less how it plays out..............."
Says Mr. Cut and Paste.
It really sickens me to see others try and tell one how one should live THEIR life. Talk about self righteous...
clunkdriver
Glad to see how everything is working out so well for you. You have obviously made choices that have worked out well for YOU. No offence but getting a little tired of hearing about it though...
Really folks , who gives a damn why anyone wants to keep working. That's their business and the "get a life crowd" are really getting a bit insufferable.
What's important is that each and every one of us can decide for ourselves and not because some union has decided it should be so.
Says Mr. Cut and Paste.
It really sickens me to see others try and tell one how one should live THEIR life. Talk about self righteous...
clunkdriver
Glad to see how everything is working out so well for you. You have obviously made choices that have worked out well for YOU. No offence but getting a little tired of hearing about it though...
Really folks , who gives a damn why anyone wants to keep working. That's their business and the "get a life crowd" are really getting a bit insufferable.
What's important is that each and every one of us can decide for ourselves and not because some union has decided it should be so.
Thread Starter
Hello from Mr Cut and Paste, but for the record I use copy and paste but I digress.
It is nice to see your ban from PPRuNe has been lifted which I might add was for "verbally beating" up the widow of a deceased pilot. I did look in Google Earth took a guess Royal Terrace is in CYYC and from the picture I can see where the expression "hide the razor blades" comes into play.
I did experience substantial languor from the exercise of the "copy and paste" from the reader comments from the Globe and Mail due to the length of comments etc. In reading of your post I got the feeling that you did not notice there were comments (few) that supported the initiative to be able to fly past the contractually agreed retirement date of age 60.
A point of interest which I will raise is my god son in his final year of university (A- average fluently bilingual) next year he will do his Masters in Education will have problems getting a job because (wait for it) retired teachers can come back and teach for 90 hours each year including being on a pension.
So guess where most teachers go to get work Korea, China or Asia?
The nice thing here in the "centre of the known defined universe as we know it" is the government has just put into place a change in the 90 hours to 45 hours to ease the "Generation Theft" that is on going. Oh I forgot it is my right to keep working, well how about with your rights come some responsibilities such as giving some one else a chance.
Without this balance a situation can develop to where a substantive change in the demographics of our nation can occur, such as where young people enter the work force later, marry later, and maybe due to age decide not to have children. Therefore, we have an aging declining population with a low birth rate and the only way to keep the population up is massive immigration but that is not germane to this conversation...
So how does the above apply for the new pilot who has a freshly minted licence? First of all I am assuming that you are a pilot to be able to understand this case, where you have the ratings but you do not have the experience. So now comes the long uphill climb that needs the majors to do some hiring. For each senior pilot at the top who forgive me for using the word retires it creates a powerful partial vacuum through out the system to pull everyone up through the middle. Therefore, if there is stagnation in the majors due going beyond a retirement age pick any number you want where does the new cohort of pilots get their employment? Alternatively, why would anyone want to spend the 50K plus to get their licences with no foreseeable job prospects?
I find irony in that you support the fight against ageism which the elimination of all prejudicial practices that is a just and righteous cause but will disparage the wealth of experience that "Clunkdriver" has to offer. That is being intellectually dishonest and morally bankrupt sir.
In your discourse you mentioned unions, yes some unions have ruined the public perception of same but in the commercial aviation world if you are involved in a regulatory issue you have the government at one table, your management at the over with yourself by yourself unless if you have your union representative there to help you out. To put it in the vernacular of your area of domicile, you bring a 12 gauge to a knife fight. I paid my dues for over thirty years and never needed that kind of back up mentioned. It is like paying the premium for fire insurance a costly item but it does come in handy if needed.
I will conclude my only interest is to see my old profession being held in high regard by our travelling public but the events such as the recent article in the Globe and Mail as of late sadly preclude this.
It is nice to see your ban from PPRuNe has been lifted which I might add was for "verbally beating" up the widow of a deceased pilot. I did look in Google Earth took a guess Royal Terrace is in CYYC and from the picture I can see where the expression "hide the razor blades" comes into play.
I did experience substantial languor from the exercise of the "copy and paste" from the reader comments from the Globe and Mail due to the length of comments etc. In reading of your post I got the feeling that you did not notice there were comments (few) that supported the initiative to be able to fly past the contractually agreed retirement date of age 60.
A point of interest which I will raise is my god son in his final year of university (A- average fluently bilingual) next year he will do his Masters in Education will have problems getting a job because (wait for it) retired teachers can come back and teach for 90 hours each year including being on a pension.
So guess where most teachers go to get work Korea, China or Asia?
The nice thing here in the "centre of the known defined universe as we know it" is the government has just put into place a change in the 90 hours to 45 hours to ease the "Generation Theft" that is on going. Oh I forgot it is my right to keep working, well how about with your rights come some responsibilities such as giving some one else a chance.
Without this balance a situation can develop to where a substantive change in the demographics of our nation can occur, such as where young people enter the work force later, marry later, and maybe due to age decide not to have children. Therefore, we have an aging declining population with a low birth rate and the only way to keep the population up is massive immigration but that is not germane to this conversation...
So how does the above apply for the new pilot who has a freshly minted licence? First of all I am assuming that you are a pilot to be able to understand this case, where you have the ratings but you do not have the experience. So now comes the long uphill climb that needs the majors to do some hiring. For each senior pilot at the top who forgive me for using the word retires it creates a powerful partial vacuum through out the system to pull everyone up through the middle. Therefore, if there is stagnation in the majors due going beyond a retirement age pick any number you want where does the new cohort of pilots get their employment? Alternatively, why would anyone want to spend the 50K plus to get their licences with no foreseeable job prospects?
I find irony in that you support the fight against ageism which the elimination of all prejudicial practices that is a just and righteous cause but will disparage the wealth of experience that "Clunkdriver" has to offer. That is being intellectually dishonest and morally bankrupt sir.
In your discourse you mentioned unions, yes some unions have ruined the public perception of same but in the commercial aviation world if you are involved in a regulatory issue you have the government at one table, your management at the over with yourself by yourself unless if you have your union representative there to help you out. To put it in the vernacular of your area of domicile, you bring a 12 gauge to a knife fight. I paid my dues for over thirty years and never needed that kind of back up mentioned. It is like paying the premium for fire insurance a costly item but it does come in handy if needed.
I will conclude my only interest is to see my old profession being held in high regard by our travelling public but the events such as the recent article in the Globe and Mail as of late sadly preclude this.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Calgary
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr. Cut (copy) and Paste
Guns ablazin eh...
Thanks for the lesson on demographics. Didn't learn anything though. We all know this whole ****estorm revolves around the older guys getting out of the way for the newer guys. I disagree. I prefer to make that decision myself. Full stop. If you want to be altruistic in any regard , fill yer boots. I support your right to make YOUR own decision. Just don't tell me what I should do...
Telling someone to get lost is not exactly beating someone up. Widow or not , I strongly disagree with the censorship that goes on at avcanada and your attempt to demonize me because she happens to be a widow is lame at best.
I'm sure clunkdriver can defend himself. I have no quarrel with him or his experience and once again I fully support his right to make the decisions he has regarding HIS OWN life. Sounds like he has a good thing going for himself. Not my cup of tea though and when the time comes I prefer to decide for myself what I will fly or even IF I will fly.
Keep propping up your old profession. We need it.
Guns ablazin eh...
Thanks for the lesson on demographics. Didn't learn anything though. We all know this whole ****estorm revolves around the older guys getting out of the way for the newer guys. I disagree. I prefer to make that decision myself. Full stop. If you want to be altruistic in any regard , fill yer boots. I support your right to make YOUR own decision. Just don't tell me what I should do...
Telling someone to get lost is not exactly beating someone up. Widow or not , I strongly disagree with the censorship that goes on at avcanada and your attempt to demonize me because she happens to be a widow is lame at best.
I'm sure clunkdriver can defend himself. I have no quarrel with him or his experience and once again I fully support his right to make the decisions he has regarding HIS OWN life. Sounds like he has a good thing going for himself. Not my cup of tea though and when the time comes I prefer to decide for myself what I will fly or even IF I will fly.
Keep propping up your old profession. We need it.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sandy beach
Posts: 430
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Obviously we have some A/C fly past 60 folks here. I'm sure it will happen at some point in the future. People are healthier, living longer and most of the other airlines around the world have adopted this extension. All fair enough.
What's in very bad taste and almost offensive is some entitled, arrogant, greedy knob profiled in the paper trying to garner sympathy. Hired at 21, unheard of today, 39 years service, self proclaimed top gun and No 1. With the benefit of all the other retirees before him, this guy now stands tall and what a great opportunity to stay the course making 230k/year + for another 5 years, then given an indexed pension at an even higher rate in proportion to his higher salary. Saigon, he will personally make more money with a dual income moving to Turkey, but make no mistake, he WILL cost AC more money staying for another 5 years on a higher salary and an even higher pension payout. What's the Air Canada pension shortfall now? Talk to a retired United, American, US Airways pilot about their pension.
This fellow is basically semi retired. At the top of the pyramid, he flies likely a few times a month, on his preferred route, gets all his requested vacation time and all of his benefits are maxed to the top level. Knowing this for his entire career of 39 years at A/C, right out of flight school he now wants to maintain his position of No 1 ! What a great idea
Why not buy a light twin, do some real flying and retire with dignity like so many others before you. Go to turkey, sim instruct, but allow the system to move people along, and after 39 years for goodness sakes ! This guy wants to cruise along at the top for another 5 years and only NOW at the final hour is trying to extract sympathy from the working public? Even from the article with limited information, the people call bullsh$t and in big numbers. They will now watch with interest to see if this arrogant narcissist will fly past 60. This doesn't do any favors to the cause or the reputation of an AC pilot. Good luck.
What's in very bad taste and almost offensive is some entitled, arrogant, greedy knob profiled in the paper trying to garner sympathy. Hired at 21, unheard of today, 39 years service, self proclaimed top gun and No 1. With the benefit of all the other retirees before him, this guy now stands tall and what a great opportunity to stay the course making 230k/year + for another 5 years, then given an indexed pension at an even higher rate in proportion to his higher salary. Saigon, he will personally make more money with a dual income moving to Turkey, but make no mistake, he WILL cost AC more money staying for another 5 years on a higher salary and an even higher pension payout. What's the Air Canada pension shortfall now? Talk to a retired United, American, US Airways pilot about their pension.
This fellow is basically semi retired. At the top of the pyramid, he flies likely a few times a month, on his preferred route, gets all his requested vacation time and all of his benefits are maxed to the top level. Knowing this for his entire career of 39 years at A/C, right out of flight school he now wants to maintain his position of No 1 ! What a great idea
Why not buy a light twin, do some real flying and retire with dignity like so many others before you. Go to turkey, sim instruct, but allow the system to move people along, and after 39 years for goodness sakes ! This guy wants to cruise along at the top for another 5 years and only NOW at the final hour is trying to extract sympathy from the working public? Even from the article with limited information, the people call bullsh$t and in big numbers. They will now watch with interest to see if this arrogant narcissist will fly past 60. This doesn't do any favors to the cause or the reputation of an AC pilot. Good luck.
Last edited by Saltaire; 15th Mar 2011 at 07:26.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: YYZ via the UK
Age: 49
Posts: 321
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What's important is that each and every one of us can decide for ourselves and not because some union has decided it should be so
Said employee would normally be quite happy said union is representing him because the perception in general seems to be that said company would screw said employee without said union representing his best interests. What is the point of them otherwise.
If the union is supposed to represent the majority then what else would you suggest?
Or are you implying that there is an inherent flaw in "democracy" and that the majority rule is not always best for everyone. Good heavens!!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,306
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Royal, if you are tired of reading my posts the solution is simple, just dont read them! Married a Canuck, you hit it right on, great post! Cut and paste, keep it up, saves the rest of us lazy sods from doing it! Regards, Clunck.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: dunno
Age: 52
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
He would not mind having all the AC retirees exercise their right to return as well, would he? So, how many guys could come back ahead of him? Could he still hold the 777?
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the union is supposed to represent the majority then what else would you suggest?
Or are you implying that there is an inherent flaw in "democracy" and that the majority rule is not always best for everyone. Good heavens!!
Or are you implying that there is an inherent flaw in "democracy" and that the majority rule is not always best for everyone. Good heavens!!
If ACPA ever knew that then they have surely forgotten it, which is why they are the subject of a DFR complaint among all their other problems.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Calgary
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
clunkdriver
Not tired of reading your posts. Just the parts where it's so great being retired and doing something else with the inherent implication that we should all do the same.
I really have no dog in this fight , but I guess I pipe up because I am so strongly against "other forces" determining ones destiny. I'm a strong believer in making ones own decisions and standing by them and reaping the rewards or consequences.
marriedacanuck
I've always had a problem with unions and their "us against them" way of doing things. At one time they were necessary to protect workers from being abused , but these days there are many laws in place to prevent that. One only has to look at the disintegration of the union movement and power over the last 10 years to see how they are becoming less relevant. There may be some positive things ACPA has done for its membership but from this outsiders perspective it's been a downhill slide for years. We shall see in the upcoming negots whether this will continue.
No question the person in the article comes off looking bad but try to remember that dealing with the press can be a tricky business. They have all the power.
It's all a complicated issue but change is coming and the process has to start somewhere. I would not be in favour of Capt. Ennis continuing in his current position including all perks associated with that position. There has to be some compromise to get the ball rolling and to even out the percieved and real inequities that the current system has brought us to.
Not tired of reading your posts. Just the parts where it's so great being retired and doing something else with the inherent implication that we should all do the same.
I really have no dog in this fight , but I guess I pipe up because I am so strongly against "other forces" determining ones destiny. I'm a strong believer in making ones own decisions and standing by them and reaping the rewards or consequences.
marriedacanuck
I've always had a problem with unions and their "us against them" way of doing things. At one time they were necessary to protect workers from being abused , but these days there are many laws in place to prevent that. One only has to look at the disintegration of the union movement and power over the last 10 years to see how they are becoming less relevant. There may be some positive things ACPA has done for its membership but from this outsiders perspective it's been a downhill slide for years. We shall see in the upcoming negots whether this will continue.
No question the person in the article comes off looking bad but try to remember that dealing with the press can be a tricky business. They have all the power.
It's all a complicated issue but change is coming and the process has to start somewhere. I would not be in favour of Capt. Ennis continuing in his current position including all perks associated with that position. There has to be some compromise to get the ball rolling and to even out the percieved and real inequities that the current system has brought us to.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Found in Toronto
Posts: 615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's all a complicated issue but change is coming and the process has to start somewhere. I would not be in favour of Capt. Ennis continuing in his current position including all perks associated with that position. There has to be some compromise to get the ball rolling and to even out the percieved and real inequities that the current system has brought us to.
ACPA had the chance to work this out many years ago. It would have been so easy to implement a formula where a number pilots could retire early in exchange for the same number staying past 60. There is never a shortage of pilots wanting to go early with no penalty. It could have been a win/win situation. (no carreer stagnation) (less training) (similar payroll obligation) (similar pension obligation)
Maybe it's not too late