Will Sunwing last?
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Well said Rubberbiscuit. I don't disagree wtih you on the Hunter family either.
As airline industry employees, we're all in this together, so let's work that way as much as possible!
As airline industry employees, we're all in this together, so let's work that way as much as possible!
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Bookings
Bookings may be up, but how much are prices down on average. I also hear Sunwing is not hedged the Canadian dollar's downward spiral and with 30% US dollar costs, especially fuel, it has got to hurt, no? Are they actually profitable?
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richardhead
...so, does the term "Pilot Rumour Network" apply to this thread or not?
Sounds to me like you're more of a "Pilot Fact Network" person.
...just a guess.
C'mon. Lighten up. It's more fun that way.
...so, does the term "Pilot Rumour Network" apply to this thread or not?
Sounds to me like you're more of a "Pilot Fact Network" person.
...just a guess.
C'mon. Lighten up. It's more fun that way.
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This is what FlyingHighAgain posted in Spectator's Balcony:
This guy joined PPrune 2 days ago and his only two posts are negative on Sunwing. He's either working for a competitor, or got turned down by them.
Bad form indeed.
Jonny
Does anyone know if Sunwing has fuel and / or foreign exchange hedges, and are they profitable at current pricing?
Bad form indeed.
Jonny
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Recently read how Southwest had one of its' greatest quarterly lo$$es in its' history. The reason given was 'hedging' fuel prices.
Does that mean others in this industry are 'hedging'?
Probably.
Does it mean Sun Wing is hedging fuel?
Possibly.
Does that put them in a bad financial position if they're hedging fuel prices?
It certainly does. (how well have your investments done over the last month?)
Without knowing how SunWing runs their business, it would be difficult to say how they're doing financially. No matter how you slice it. Wouldn't it???
Does that mean others in this industry are 'hedging'?
Probably.
Does it mean Sun Wing is hedging fuel?
Possibly.
Does that put them in a bad financial position if they're hedging fuel prices?
It certainly does. (how well have your investments done over the last month?)
Without knowing how SunWing runs their business, it would be difficult to say how they're doing financially. No matter how you slice it. Wouldn't it???
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Regarding Crazy Woman's post:
I don't work for SunWing, but do believe this industry's challenging enough without anonymous one time posters spreading garbage.
I wonder if anyone has ever been successfully prosecuted for damaging a corporation's reputation via such tactics?
JD
Ask any Sunwing employee why they were late on the payroll last Friday. I have a hard time believing that it was a 'computer glitch'.
Long time lurker, short time poster, 2nd post.
Long time lurker, short time poster, 2nd post.
I wonder if anyone has ever been successfully prosecuted for damaging a corporation's reputation via such tactics?
JD
Last edited by jonny dangerous; 27th Nov 2008 at 00:50. Reason: I believe I made my point
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And this gem from Crazy Woman:
Crazy Woman,
Can you not be content with doing your job professionally, investing your money wisely, and then retiring in 20 years, without the need to post negative comments about your competition on internet forums? You do realize that the company that you are trying to send out of business has employees who have families with mouths to feed, do you not? As someone who went through the windups of three airlines, it is quite obvious that you have not had that experience which in my mind explains the quite cavalier disregard you have for the concept of fair play.
The Karma thing will catch up with you some day.
Well, we'll see. I say 2nd week in January. The fact is Sunwing is struggling, and no one on the street knows what the financials are and that is a concern. The Hunters were trying to peddle the company for $21m last spring. A little on the cheap side for an airline that size. C3 employees were blind sided even though their demise was well documented and predicted along with JetsGo's. EnerJet has a chance given that they have big money behind them. CanJet will become a stronger competitor I think as they are affiliated with Air Transat. Skyservice is also a mystery. Y'all will have a week's notice when you hear that Sunwing is cash for gas.
Crazy Woman,
Can you not be content with doing your job professionally, investing your money wisely, and then retiring in 20 years, without the need to post negative comments about your competition on internet forums? You do realize that the company that you are trying to send out of business has employees who have families with mouths to feed, do you not? As someone who went through the windups of three airlines, it is quite obvious that you have not had that experience which in my mind explains the quite cavalier disregard you have for the concept of fair play.
The Karma thing will catch up with you some day.
Last edited by jonny dangerous; 27th Nov 2008 at 00:51. Reason: mystery solved...?
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Crazy Woman wrote:
"The fact is Sunwing is struggling, and no one on the street knows what the financials are and that is a concern." That statement right there is contradictory and shows you know as little as the next guy! For what it is worth, the Hunters were named entrepeneurs of the year by Ernst & Young after they were given access to and reviewed the books last year. That does not mean it is successfull today. When XL went under however, Sunwing was able to replace a significant number of leased aircraft unsolicited and in short oder, I would like to think that says something. It may not mean anything but fuel prices is down 60% or so and prices on hotels etc are way down in many vacation hotspots due to the american economy. That has to make up for some lost business due to the overall economy. It is profitsharing time soon and everyone is curious as to what that will look like. Last year everyone got 15% of gross earnings.
On a different note, where do you get the Idea that Sunwing was/is for sale? Or that we are folding specifically in the 2nd week of January? You are either one of the Hunters or have sick sense of humor! That said anything can be bought for the right price. Jonny is right, your lack of tact and attitude towards fellow aviators tells me you have not had the rug pulled out from underneath you yet. As for the karma idea... you just never know!
"The fact is Sunwing is struggling, and no one on the street knows what the financials are and that is a concern." That statement right there is contradictory and shows you know as little as the next guy! For what it is worth, the Hunters were named entrepeneurs of the year by Ernst & Young after they were given access to and reviewed the books last year. That does not mean it is successfull today. When XL went under however, Sunwing was able to replace a significant number of leased aircraft unsolicited and in short oder, I would like to think that says something. It may not mean anything but fuel prices is down 60% or so and prices on hotels etc are way down in many vacation hotspots due to the american economy. That has to make up for some lost business due to the overall economy. It is profitsharing time soon and everyone is curious as to what that will look like. Last year everyone got 15% of gross earnings.
On a different note, where do you get the Idea that Sunwing was/is for sale? Or that we are folding specifically in the 2nd week of January? You are either one of the Hunters or have sick sense of humor! That said anything can be bought for the right price. Jonny is right, your lack of tact and attitude towards fellow aviators tells me you have not had the rug pulled out from underneath you yet. As for the karma idea... you just never know!
Last edited by Rubberbiscuit; 25th Nov 2008 at 16:24. Reason: Edited for content.
Sounds like CrazyWoman is a CanJet pilot. Some of the "mystery" has been solved ...
Skyservice Airlines and Signature Vacations renew long-term agreement
TORONTO, Nov. 26 /CNW/ - Skyservice Airlines and Signature Vacations today announced they have renewed their long-term agreement. Signature Vacations and Skyservice Airlines have signed a long-term commercial agreement where Skyservice will continue as the exclusive provider of dedicated aircraft to Signature Vacations supporting their network ofvacation packages.
Skyservice Airlines has been providing dedicated aircraft to Signature Vacations since early 2002. "Over the past six years, Skyservice Airlines has provided Signature Vacations' customers with superior customer service" said Mike Price, President of Signature Vacations. "We are pleased to continue our partnership with Skyservice and will continue working together to maximize our customers' inflight experience".
"We are delighted to have extended our agreement with Signature Vacations. Over the years Skyservice and Signature have become excellent partners. We are looking forward to continuing to meet and exceed the expectations of Signature's customers for a long time to come," said Rob Giguere, President & CEO of Skyservice Airlines. Skyservice operates nine dedicated aircraft supporting the Signature product line, all configured with Signature's new Star Class service. Skyservice's renowned service includes welcome cocktails, in-flight meals and entertainment.
Skyservice and Signature serve Mexico, the Caribbean and Central America. Skyservice Airlines carries over one million passengers annually and currently operates a total fleet of 20 aircraft including the Airbus A-320, A-330 and Boeing B-757 to popular vacation destinations in Canada, the United States, the Caribbean, Mexico and Europe. Skyservice Airlines is widely recognized for its quality service and the versatility of its charter operations; its customers include tour operators, corporations, governments and relief agencies.
Signature Vacations, one of Canada's leading tour operators for package holidays, offers over 200 all-inclusive or self-catering resorts in destinations throughout Mexico, Central America, and the Caribbean, serviced from 13 gateways across Canada. Signature Vacations is a part of TUI Travel PLC, (a division of TUI AG), the world's largest leisure travel group withover 21 billion euros in revenues and 68,000 employees, operating in 180 countries from over 30 source markets, proudly serving over 30 million customers annually.
TORONTO, Nov. 26 /CNW/ - Skyservice Airlines and Signature Vacations today announced they have renewed their long-term agreement. Signature Vacations and Skyservice Airlines have signed a long-term commercial agreement where Skyservice will continue as the exclusive provider of dedicated aircraft to Signature Vacations supporting their network ofvacation packages.
Skyservice Airlines has been providing dedicated aircraft to Signature Vacations since early 2002. "Over the past six years, Skyservice Airlines has provided Signature Vacations' customers with superior customer service" said Mike Price, President of Signature Vacations. "We are pleased to continue our partnership with Skyservice and will continue working together to maximize our customers' inflight experience".
"We are delighted to have extended our agreement with Signature Vacations. Over the years Skyservice and Signature have become excellent partners. We are looking forward to continuing to meet and exceed the expectations of Signature's customers for a long time to come," said Rob Giguere, President & CEO of Skyservice Airlines. Skyservice operates nine dedicated aircraft supporting the Signature product line, all configured with Signature's new Star Class service. Skyservice's renowned service includes welcome cocktails, in-flight meals and entertainment.
Skyservice and Signature serve Mexico, the Caribbean and Central America. Skyservice Airlines carries over one million passengers annually and currently operates a total fleet of 20 aircraft including the Airbus A-320, A-330 and Boeing B-757 to popular vacation destinations in Canada, the United States, the Caribbean, Mexico and Europe. Skyservice Airlines is widely recognized for its quality service and the versatility of its charter operations; its customers include tour operators, corporations, governments and relief agencies.
Signature Vacations, one of Canada's leading tour operators for package holidays, offers over 200 all-inclusive or self-catering resorts in destinations throughout Mexico, Central America, and the Caribbean, serviced from 13 gateways across Canada. Signature Vacations is a part of TUI Travel PLC, (a division of TUI AG), the world's largest leisure travel group withover 21 billion euros in revenues and 68,000 employees, operating in 180 countries from over 30 source markets, proudly serving over 30 million customers annually.
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You have to wonder about some of the posters in this thread. 
Speculation and rumour on a pilot rumour forum??? You've got to be kidding. Where did anyone get that idea?
Who in their right mind would have the nerve to 'speculate' about the viability of any Canadian carrier let alone dare to speculate (factually or otherwise) about their financial state? Maybe we should identify the Sacred Cows before we post on this forum, so that (in typical Canadian fashion) you don't offend some of our more sensitive readers.
Nah! Not me. Je n'ai give-a-**** pas.
If you don't agree, that's fine. That's great. I'd like to know why you don't agree. Just don't try to tell us we have no business 'speculating' or 'postulating' on a pilot rumour network with rumour and conjecture about Sunwing, Westjet, Air Canada or any other carrier for that matter.
I'm also curious to know what it is some of you don't get about the notion rumours and speculation are the very essence of a forum like PPRuNe? This is why we visit the site. Maybe you'd prefer a rumour like Sunwing are about to lease 4 discounted/parked B777s for their Far East charters coming up next summer??? (by the way, most of the ex-Zoom guys are inline for those positions) Why would they get leased aircraft to fly to the Far East? Because the Far Eastern carriers can't find the pilots to provide the service from that end.
Like it or not, in the present global financial environment, somebody's going down. So why not make your pick. Go ahead. Speculate. Postulate. Take a wild guess. Read that crystal ball. Put it in writing. See what you get for feedback. C'mon, it's fun! Give it a shot.
Speculation and rumour on a pilot rumour forum??? You've got to be kidding. Where did anyone get that idea?
Who in their right mind would have the nerve to 'speculate' about the viability of any Canadian carrier let alone dare to speculate (factually or otherwise) about their financial state? Maybe we should identify the Sacred Cows before we post on this forum, so that (in typical Canadian fashion) you don't offend some of our more sensitive readers.
Nah! Not me. Je n'ai give-a-**** pas.
If you don't agree, that's fine. That's great. I'd like to know why you don't agree. Just don't try to tell us we have no business 'speculating' or 'postulating' on a pilot rumour network with rumour and conjecture about Sunwing, Westjet, Air Canada or any other carrier for that matter.
I'm also curious to know what it is some of you don't get about the notion rumours and speculation are the very essence of a forum like PPRuNe? This is why we visit the site. Maybe you'd prefer a rumour like Sunwing are about to lease 4 discounted/parked B777s for their Far East charters coming up next summer??? (by the way, most of the ex-Zoom guys are inline for those positions) Why would they get leased aircraft to fly to the Far East? Because the Far Eastern carriers can't find the pilots to provide the service from that end.
Like it or not, in the present global financial environment, somebody's going down. So why not make your pick. Go ahead. Speculate. Postulate. Take a wild guess. Read that crystal ball. Put it in writing. See what you get for feedback. C'mon, it's fun! Give it a shot.
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I apologize in advance if my point doesn't come through as clearly and non-equivocally as I'd like but English is not my first language...
As a pilot myself, I can understand why it is in bad taste to wish or talk somewhat lightly about the demise of an airline that employs fellow pilots...everybody needs a job, right?
But what do you make of the fact that a new player comes on the scene, cuts the prices so bad that the existing companies loose big money because of it, some of them maybe so much so that the pilots of those companies might be facing what we're not supposed to wish others????
Doesn't make sense, does it?
As a pilot myself, I can understand why it is in bad taste to wish or talk somewhat lightly about the demise of an airline that employs fellow pilots...everybody needs a job, right?
But what do you make of the fact that a new player comes on the scene, cuts the prices so bad that the existing companies loose big money because of it, some of them maybe so much so that the pilots of those companies might be facing what we're not supposed to wish others????
Doesn't make sense, does it?
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Willie Everlearn, funny you mention things being in a Canadian fashion.
I spend much time trolling the various forums in other parts of the world and rarely find the examples I see in Canada of posters planting rumours in so spectacular a fashion.
By all means post questions. Be somewhat responsible in doing so.
JD
I spend much time trolling the various forums in other parts of the world and rarely find the examples I see in Canada of posters planting rumours in so spectacular a fashion.
By all means post questions. Be somewhat responsible in doing so.
JD
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JD
Speculation, whether it's positive or negative, is just speculation. Right? I'd put rumours in the same basket. It's sometimes interesting and it's always a bit of a shocker especially when whatever is speculated about, happens.
Personally, I read the comments in this thread (and others) out of interest.
Having gone through three company failures myself, I agree with an earlier post, it isn't a pleasant experience and it's certainly not something you wish upon anyone else.
These are hard economic times and every carrier in Canada is vulnerable. That isn't likely to change.
If I were allowed to speculate I'd point a finger, (with apologies in advance) it would be aimed at Cargo Jet. Followed closely by Enerjet and Sunwing. But what do I know. It's crystal ball gazing on a good day and nothing more.
LCC startup with one aeroplane? Let's think about that for a minute.......
take care,
it's dangerous out there.
Speculation, whether it's positive or negative, is just speculation. Right? I'd put rumours in the same basket. It's sometimes interesting and it's always a bit of a shocker especially when whatever is speculated about, happens.
Personally, I read the comments in this thread (and others) out of interest.
Having gone through three company failures myself, I agree with an earlier post, it isn't a pleasant experience and it's certainly not something you wish upon anyone else.
These are hard economic times and every carrier in Canada is vulnerable. That isn't likely to change.
If I were allowed to speculate I'd point a finger, (with apologies in advance) it would be aimed at Cargo Jet. Followed closely by Enerjet and Sunwing. But what do I know. It's crystal ball gazing on a good day and nothing more.
LCC startup with one aeroplane? Let's think about that for a minute.......
take care,
it's dangerous out there.
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GumbiUnfortunately, pilots aren't worth s**t in a handbag to many startups despite what you might think. Those who start companies like Jetsgo(ne), Ryanair, etc., will only take advantage of the prostitution market that is pilot employment.
All you have to do is scan the Pilot Wanted Ads. These pilot employment agencies are all cats chasing the same mouse and who's the sucker? Well, pilots are the suckers to be blunt.
At Ryanair, (allowing for minor inaccuracies) you pay for your type rating, you pay for your recurrent sims, and you pay for your uniform. The only silver lining is they pay a decent wage. As (what I like to call us) professionals, how is that Ryanair has even one pilot on their roster?
This industry is what it is and we're merely pawns. You have to play with your head and you have to get your head out of fantasyland.
Some might agree, some will certainly disagree but I leave it to you.
Best of luck down the road.
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That was exactly the point of my post Willie!
It is sometimes hard to feel sorry for people who take on jobs with companies whose sole mission is to undercut prices (read pay s****y wages and conditions) to get their part of the pie, and force other companies under. You have to be lucid and know what you're getting yourself into, and not expect much compassion when your proposition is not the winning one, IMHO.
It is sometimes hard to feel sorry for people who take on jobs with companies whose sole mission is to undercut prices (read pay s****y wages and conditions) to get their part of the pie, and force other companies under. You have to be lucid and know what you're getting yourself into, and not expect much compassion when your proposition is not the winning one, IMHO.
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Willie Everlearn wrote:
"You have to wonder about some of the posters in this thread.
Speculation and rumour on a pilot rumour forum??? You've got to be kidding. Where did anyone get that idea?
Who in their right mind would have the nerve to 'speculate' about the viability of any Canadian carrier let alone dare to speculate (factually or otherwise) about their financial state? Maybe we should identify the Sacred Cows before we post on this forum, so that (in typical Canadian fashion) you don't offend some of our more sensitive readers."
I don't know if I am one of the posters you are wondering about, and I agree with alot of what you have expressed in this thread., but will say I am not sensitive to rumors and speculation. What I am sensitive to (although I try not to care) is posters such as Crazy Woman coming on here posting lies, fabricated stories or whatever they dreamed during their beauty sleep the night before! Hey if Sunwing is not making payroll or paying for fuel with cash I want to know about it, trust me!! Coming on here and posting stuff such as:
"Ask any Sunwing employee why they were late on the payroll last Friday. I have a hard time believing that it was a 'computer glitch'."...... does however piss me off when it is simply a lie, nevermind a rumor. Yes it is a "rumor network/forum", but the first P in PPrune stands for Professional, and there is nothing professional about posting fabricated lies for personal amusement. I have no issues with rumors or speculations about a companys viability in the long or short term. Hell, I have no idea how Sunwing or any other leisure airline in Canada is doing, and my point is that nobody does except for upper management and the company accountants! Trust me Willie, it would come as little or no surprise to me if I found myself unemployed again. For all I know I could be out of work as I am sitting here typing this and just don't know about it yet
!
Gumbi wrote:
"But what do you make of the fact that a new player comes on the scene, cuts the prices so bad that the existing companies loose big money because of it, some of them maybe so much so that the pilots of those companies might be facing what we're not supposed to wish others????"
I can appreciate you sentiment, but this is the reality of capitalism and a free market. It is a dog it dog world, especially in the aviation sector.. that is not to say I agree with all that goes on, and do belive low cost/no frills airlines has turned what used to be a pleasurable and exiting experience for most travellers into no more than a greyhound coach ride from A to B. I will take capitalism over the othe option... In China for example, pilots essentially sign their life away for airline jobs that pay peanuts, and pay mortgages on a place they will never own!
"You have to wonder about some of the posters in this thread.
Speculation and rumour on a pilot rumour forum??? You've got to be kidding. Where did anyone get that idea?
Who in their right mind would have the nerve to 'speculate' about the viability of any Canadian carrier let alone dare to speculate (factually or otherwise) about their financial state? Maybe we should identify the Sacred Cows before we post on this forum, so that (in typical Canadian fashion) you don't offend some of our more sensitive readers."
I don't know if I am one of the posters you are wondering about, and I agree with alot of what you have expressed in this thread., but will say I am not sensitive to rumors and speculation. What I am sensitive to (although I try not to care) is posters such as Crazy Woman coming on here posting lies, fabricated stories or whatever they dreamed during their beauty sleep the night before! Hey if Sunwing is not making payroll or paying for fuel with cash I want to know about it, trust me!! Coming on here and posting stuff such as:
"Ask any Sunwing employee why they were late on the payroll last Friday. I have a hard time believing that it was a 'computer glitch'."...... does however piss me off when it is simply a lie, nevermind a rumor. Yes it is a "rumor network/forum", but the first P in PPrune stands for Professional, and there is nothing professional about posting fabricated lies for personal amusement. I have no issues with rumors or speculations about a companys viability in the long or short term. Hell, I have no idea how Sunwing or any other leisure airline in Canada is doing, and my point is that nobody does except for upper management and the company accountants! Trust me Willie, it would come as little or no surprise to me if I found myself unemployed again. For all I know I could be out of work as I am sitting here typing this and just don't know about it yet
!Gumbi wrote:
"But what do you make of the fact that a new player comes on the scene, cuts the prices so bad that the existing companies loose big money because of it, some of them maybe so much so that the pilots of those companies might be facing what we're not supposed to wish others????"
I can appreciate you sentiment, but this is the reality of capitalism and a free market. It is a dog it dog world, especially in the aviation sector.. that is not to say I agree with all that goes on, and do belive low cost/no frills airlines has turned what used to be a pleasurable and exiting experience for most travellers into no more than a greyhound coach ride from A to B. I will take capitalism over the othe option... In China for example, pilots essentially sign their life away for airline jobs that pay peanuts, and pay mortgages on a place they will never own!