Jetsgo YYC today...
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www.jetthrust.com has a picture of the ruts left by the MD83. I think you have to register to view the forums. If you are interetsed it's under Aviation Photograhy.
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I would hardly call any pilots that would pay $30K up front for the burden of working for any company "one of us", or anything I would want to be associated with. Boys- get your jet time, get the eff out and we hope we never see you in Canada again because you're making it that much more difficult for the rest of us. Never seen a bigger bunch of "I'm alright Jack's" in my life.
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I had an interesting talk with a TC inspector today.
But first, this thread is meant for all those WJ types that can't wait or resist bashing Jetsgo, especially about so called safety issues.
The talk revolved around reportabe incidents and the first thing I noted was the comment that, over the last 2 years, WJ has had more reportable incidents than Jetsgo, all of which are public record.
So lets take a look:
1. 2 hours after the Jetsgo incident in YYC a WJ 700 landed and scraped a flap!!!!
2. Several months ago a WJ flight STALLED after departure after the autopilot had a docile trip off without the crew noticing.
3. WJ was investigated for landing in Saskatoon in zero/zero weather when the tower was closed.
4. At least 3 incidents of crews, in the 200, forgetting to turn packs on after dep resulting in the 'rubber jungle'.
The comments also included the observations that the below landing limits landings and questionable practices with regard to deice procedures have been an issue that TC are aware of and watching.
So, for those WJers who seem to delight in trashing Jetsgo (and only those WJers since the ones I know personally are above that) you might want to consider looking inhouse before casting stones elsewhere.
(C150---no report anywhere of a 'coffin drop' at Jetsgo--blatant lies)
But first, this thread is meant for all those WJ types that can't wait or resist bashing Jetsgo, especially about so called safety issues.
The talk revolved around reportabe incidents and the first thing I noted was the comment that, over the last 2 years, WJ has had more reportable incidents than Jetsgo, all of which are public record.
So lets take a look:
1. 2 hours after the Jetsgo incident in YYC a WJ 700 landed and scraped a flap!!!!
2. Several months ago a WJ flight STALLED after departure after the autopilot had a docile trip off without the crew noticing.
3. WJ was investigated for landing in Saskatoon in zero/zero weather when the tower was closed.
4. At least 3 incidents of crews, in the 200, forgetting to turn packs on after dep resulting in the 'rubber jungle'.
The comments also included the observations that the below landing limits landings and questionable practices with regard to deice procedures have been an issue that TC are aware of and watching.
So, for those WJers who seem to delight in trashing Jetsgo (and only those WJers since the ones I know personally are above that) you might want to consider looking inhouse before casting stones elsewhere.
(C150---no report anywhere of a 'coffin drop' at Jetsgo--blatant lies)
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Location: Montreal, packing for Dubai...
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Dockjock,
You can see it anyway you'd like, but these are the facts: You're lending money to the company so that they know you will be around for two years. In the course of those two years the company pays back the loan, to you, every month.
After two years + one day, you have got all that 30k back plus interest. If you were lucky enough to have that kind of money in hand and did not have to go to a bank, then you make 7% interest yearly, non-taxable.
Sounds better than what Westjet stock did last year... which could help one understand, from your location, the nature of your post and your frustration, thanks to the competition from the east.
But that would be speculating and very unprofessional, just like being very opiniated on an incident another company had without knowing the facts, or writing a nasty report discrediting the competition and their financial state, again, without knowing the facts.
Have you got the "Clive Beddoe" syndrome too? Discredit others in order to look better?
You can see it anyway you'd like, but these are the facts: You're lending money to the company so that they know you will be around for two years. In the course of those two years the company pays back the loan, to you, every month.
After two years + one day, you have got all that 30k back plus interest. If you were lucky enough to have that kind of money in hand and did not have to go to a bank, then you make 7% interest yearly, non-taxable.
Sounds better than what Westjet stock did last year... which could help one understand, from your location, the nature of your post and your frustration, thanks to the competition from the east.
But that would be speculating and very unprofessional, just like being very opiniated on an incident another company had without knowing the facts, or writing a nasty report discrediting the competition and their financial state, again, without knowing the facts.
Have you got the "Clive Beddoe" syndrome too? Discredit others in order to look better?
Last edited by Quebecer; 2nd Feb 2005 at 18:16.
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Trader
A couple of your 'rumours' have been dispelled over on another forum.
http://forum.aeforum.net/index.php?showtopic=120268
A couple of your 'rumours' have been dispelled over on another forum.
http://forum.aeforum.net/index.php?showtopic=120268
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A couple of rebuttals:
Point #4
Point #2
Point #1
Point #4
It happened once and it has been used as a training tool to teach crews the perils of bleeds off takeoffs. As far as the other incidents, I can't comment since I don't know 100% whether or not they occured.
As for the 700 that 'stalled', it didn't. The airspeed went low, the Flight Data Monitoring caught it and the crew reported it. The crew was pulled, rechecked, and the training department took it on the chin and added procedures. Cathay had the same thing happen to them.
All of the 700's were operational the Saturday after this incident so I doubt that this is true.
Absolutly Impossible to scrape the flaps without engine touching first.....even checked with mx no such incident.
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Azure, you may very well be right. I just related some comments made to me adn either he got em wrong (partially) or I misheard. But the gist of all of them, save the flap scrape, are true.
These are nor unusual and they don't make WJ a dangerous company---this happens to everyone, it is part of the industry. Crap happens.
The point was simply to shove it back at the minority of WJ guys who like to shovel it the other way. I know they're a minority but sometimes you can't sit back and let them get away with it.
These are nor unusual and they don't make WJ a dangerous company---this happens to everyone, it is part of the industry. Crap happens.
The point was simply to shove it back at the minority of WJ guys who like to shovel it the other way. I know they're a minority but sometimes you can't sit back and let them get away with it.
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trader
I'd like to add my comments to your posting. For all we know you could have been talking to the man in the moon. But, never mind.
You say;
1. 2 hours after the Jetsgo incident in YYC a WJ 700 landed and scraped a flap!!!!
So, that's all you got? What happened? x-wind? control problem? Surely there's a story there or it wouldn't be a point for discussion.
2. Several months ago a WJ flight STALLED after departure after the autopilot had a docile trip off without the crew noticing.
Not possible. The 700 (and most airliners make a noise when they trip off. Hard or Soft) The crew would be well aware well in advance of a stick shaker notification.
3. WJ was investigated for landing in Saskatoon in zero/zero weather when the tower was closed.
P1 calls landing or go-around at minimums. Not the tower. Whether it is open or closed. Read the regs.
4. At least 3 incidents of crews, in the 200, forgetting to turn packs on after dep resulting in the 'rubber jungle'.
Is that known to be dangerous, or forgetful?
My suggestion, for what it's worth, and I admire your intention to point out we're all not as perfect as some would like to think or believe us to be but, surely you can come up with something juicier than heresay?
I'd like to add my comments to your posting. For all we know you could have been talking to the man in the moon. But, never mind.
You say;
1. 2 hours after the Jetsgo incident in YYC a WJ 700 landed and scraped a flap!!!!
So, that's all you got? What happened? x-wind? control problem? Surely there's a story there or it wouldn't be a point for discussion.
2. Several months ago a WJ flight STALLED after departure after the autopilot had a docile trip off without the crew noticing.
Not possible. The 700 (and most airliners make a noise when they trip off. Hard or Soft) The crew would be well aware well in advance of a stick shaker notification.
3. WJ was investigated for landing in Saskatoon in zero/zero weather when the tower was closed.
P1 calls landing or go-around at minimums. Not the tower. Whether it is open or closed. Read the regs.
4. At least 3 incidents of crews, in the 200, forgetting to turn packs on after dep resulting in the 'rubber jungle'.
Is that known to be dangerous, or forgetful?
My suggestion, for what it's worth, and I admire your intention to point out we're all not as perfect as some would like to think or believe us to be but, surely you can come up with something juicier than heresay?
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Hiring practice
All other factors put aside, what can one think of safety at an airline who does not hire the most qualified pilots out of the applicants but those, often less qualified and experienced, who accept to pay the 30K ?
One cannot blame the unemployed or low time pilots who accept to pay the money but I think legislation should forbid such a practice on the basis of safety.
At least if they were made to sign a bond like many airlines do, but that is not what happens. They are made to take out a loan in their name, hand the money over to Jetsgo who begins to re-imburse after 6 months and does so over a period of 18 months. The difference for the applicant is that instead of only loosing his money if he defaults on his bond, he also risks loosing it if Jetsgo goes under before 24 months of his hire.
I heard that recently several Jetsgo grounschools had been cancelled because applicants who had decided to pay the 30K had had second thoughts. In other cases, groundschools had half the applicants that were planned, for the same reason. Handing 30K to Jetsgo today is a risk, but I guess for a turborpop F/O, its a shortcut to build medium jet time. How many experienced jet pilots have joined Jetsgo recently ? What is the average Jetsgo crew experience level versus other airlines? I suspect its much lower.
One cannot blame the unemployed or low time pilots who accept to pay the money but I think legislation should forbid such a practice on the basis of safety.
At least if they were made to sign a bond like many airlines do, but that is not what happens. They are made to take out a loan in their name, hand the money over to Jetsgo who begins to re-imburse after 6 months and does so over a period of 18 months. The difference for the applicant is that instead of only loosing his money if he defaults on his bond, he also risks loosing it if Jetsgo goes under before 24 months of his hire.
I heard that recently several Jetsgo grounschools had been cancelled because applicants who had decided to pay the 30K had had second thoughts. In other cases, groundschools had half the applicants that were planned, for the same reason. Handing 30K to Jetsgo today is a risk, but I guess for a turborpop F/O, its a shortcut to build medium jet time. How many experienced jet pilots have joined Jetsgo recently ? What is the average Jetsgo crew experience level versus other airlines? I suspect its much lower.
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tiermonde
Are pilots, no matter what their level of experience, not allowed to invest their money as they choose? Do you advocate hiding behind legislation to improve safety?
Remember. We don't have the facts on this or any other incident at JGO, WJ, ACJ or AC.
Let's be honest, some who accept the JGO offer mightn't be able to come up with the cash by the time they show up for their training and have to cancel at the last minute. Shouldn't surprise anyone.
Sounds to me like the risk management/investment goes both ways. Doesn't it?
Someone recently commented that when you charge your pilots a training fee up front, you end up with rich pilots NOT experienced and qualified pilots. Well, I don't think so. Any modest research of the Canadian pilot employment picture at present will show you there isn't much on the menu and of those presently seeking pilots, it's a crap shoot as to who will survive and who won't. Some future that is!
Measures are now in place at JGO to sim eval candidates. Which is a great idea and to their credit. Maybe the 'marginal' rich ones can be weeded out, who knows? But at least they are getting on with what they need to as far as running an airline and trying to survive on scraps.
The guys I know at Jetsgo are getting a 7% return on a financial investment in themselves. Pretty good return by any financial "risk" measurement, I'd say.
If you want to cry "Safety First" then I suggest you consider this. The newer, more sophisticated aircraft will require a specific level of experience and as the world wide pilot experience level descends, accident/incident statistics will rise. That's not news by the way, it's where we're headed. Because the mentality in Canada is that you need an ATPL and 3-4000 hours just to fly a Navajo. Based on the personnel licencing I see, I understand why.
Good luck with your flying.
...and cheers.
Are pilots, no matter what their level of experience, not allowed to invest their money as they choose? Do you advocate hiding behind legislation to improve safety?
Remember. We don't have the facts on this or any other incident at JGO, WJ, ACJ or AC.
Let's be honest, some who accept the JGO offer mightn't be able to come up with the cash by the time they show up for their training and have to cancel at the last minute. Shouldn't surprise anyone.
Sounds to me like the risk management/investment goes both ways. Doesn't it?
Someone recently commented that when you charge your pilots a training fee up front, you end up with rich pilots NOT experienced and qualified pilots. Well, I don't think so. Any modest research of the Canadian pilot employment picture at present will show you there isn't much on the menu and of those presently seeking pilots, it's a crap shoot as to who will survive and who won't. Some future that is!
Measures are now in place at JGO to sim eval candidates. Which is a great idea and to their credit. Maybe the 'marginal' rich ones can be weeded out, who knows? But at least they are getting on with what they need to as far as running an airline and trying to survive on scraps.
The guys I know at Jetsgo are getting a 7% return on a financial investment in themselves. Pretty good return by any financial "risk" measurement, I'd say.
If you want to cry "Safety First" then I suggest you consider this. The newer, more sophisticated aircraft will require a specific level of experience and as the world wide pilot experience level descends, accident/incident statistics will rise. That's not news by the way, it's where we're headed. Because the mentality in Canada is that you need an ATPL and 3-4000 hours just to fly a Navajo. Based on the personnel licencing I see, I understand why.
Good luck with your flying.
...and cheers.
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No Jetsgo groundschools have been cancelled. There have been a few with less than the planned amount of pilots but none have been cancelled. As for the experience level, there are plenty of guys with alot of prior jet experience, some of it on widebody A/C. The rest of the guys come from the same pool that Westjet, Skyservice, Transat and Air Canada hire from. Either the regional airlines or guys coming off 1900's, metro's etc. I'm not sure why you automatically assume that the level of pilot is lower at one airline than another.
