Perhaps, but valued by BASSA or BA or an independent third party? That is important. BASSA isn't very good with accuracy ..... as it's track record shows.

And I realise it is splitting hairs nuigini, but I believe the figure was £82 million?

It would also be interesting to know how much the 757 deal is considering all of these aircraft will be grounded in a couple of months. Replacing the PSR with a main cabin crew and letting it leave LHR with only one SCCM was a very generous proposal of them.

Is it just me or is BASSA's proposal, compared to BA's, completely ludicrous? It offers barely any cost savings or increase in productivity and merely rewrites the Disruption Agreement, removes the telephone allowance and creates a new back to back. I don't understand how in anyway that can be seen as negotiation and find it laughable that they can even suggest such ridiculous 'changes'.

BASSA members please check the BASSA website for the latest proposal from BA. I have nothing to lose if it goes to a strike. If BA want me to work on those conditions I'd rather die standing up than live life on my knees!

Tofster

PS I am not making 30K a year as full time crew as reported in the press. My P60 states 18k!

Tofster.

I'm cabin crew and opposed to BA's current proposal. But I fear it does our cause no good when you hysterically announce that death is the prefered option. There are trolls in abundance, please don't feed them.

What happened to a stiff upper lip and quiet confident resolve. (Trolls - you are full, don't bite!)

What about your job?

I don't understand this mentality. If it's that that bad, then move on and get a different job.

So is it back to the new fleet proposal then? Anyone care to post BAs latest offer?

I'm afraid that the BA proposals are not acceptable. Money aside, I cannot contemplate operating to long range destinations with a single local nights rest. The only way to sleep on the first night of time changes of +/-8 hours is by sleeping pills or lots of alcohol. Neither is helpful.

No, I'm afraid that if BA want the best from their crews and to keep peddling the premium carrier MO, then there needs to be concessions.

Tofster,

Which bit of £18K per annum do you find less preferable than making yourself and all your colleagues redundant in the middle of the worst recession for 50 years?

Tofster
 

Your P60 states 18k? Well according to BASSA's calculation, on this new contract you will be earning approx £19k.

"For main crew this will be around GBP11000 plus hourly rate and
performance related pay giving a total of around GBP19000. Supervisor will
be GBP22000 plus hourly pay plus performance related pay giving a total of
around GBP29000"

So although working harder, you will be better off?

C u guys on the picket line..:):)

Here is the proposal!

PAY

BASSA - proposed a deal mirroring the pilot’s deal exactly with a 2.61% reduction in incremental pay. With an equivalent agreed share scheme to reward crew for this contribution in 2011 and 2012

BA - now wants no increase in basic pay or variable pay for Cabin Crew for the next two years or incremental increases for one year. This is a permanent reduction.

Cabin crew have not been offered the “payback” inline with the pilots and mangement who will potentially receive up to 13 million pounds per year in the form of a share bonus divided between Captains and First Officers.

There will be a freeze in incremental pay rises with effect from 1 January 2010 until December 2010 for those earning a basic salary of 14,500 pounds per year or more (or the equivalent pro-rata salary for part-time Cabin Crew)

A fixed element of pay will be introduced, to be paid as a non-pensionable monthly payment, replacing all variable allowances.

The payment will be subject to a deduction calculated on a daily basis for all non-flying related duties ie courses and sickness etc.

The additional payment will replace the following.

WORLDWIDE

Long range payments

Back to back PAYMENTS

Destination payments

ETP

Time away allowance

Telephone allowance

EURO FLEET

Long day payment

ETP

Early report

Telephone allowance

Down route rest

Worldwide rest down route will no longer be entitled to 2 local nights rest on any non-long range or long-range routes. Currently this would affect

SFO, LAX, JNB, CPT, PEK, MEX, GRU, HKG, SIN, BKK, PHX, NRT, MRU, PVG, GIG,

BLR, MAA

Reduced crewing complement

2 crewmembers would be removed from: BOM, DEL, DEN, MIA, MAA, HYD, MRU, YYC, MRU 777, PVG 777, GIG 777, SIN 777, HKG 777

One crew member - a purser- would be removed from ALL other routes and aircraft types and configurations 747,777, 767.

Additionally in the future, all future/on the day crew compliments can be altered at British Airways’s sole discretion as they see fit.

There will be no “one down” payments.

Aircraft can leave base or down route with any crewing level that is legally compliant at the time. For example on a 747 this is currently 11.

Operational Flexibility for ALL fleets - ROSTERS, TRIPS, DAYS OFF

In the future all rosters, trips and days off may be altered at British Airways sole discretion, when ever the operation requires it.

Promotion and new contract crew

All future promotion will only be to the “new contract” supervisor, there will not be pursers or CSD.

New crew and all future promotions will have to sign a new contract which, will include

New rates of pay, no increments

New scheme based flying this will NOT be to current agreements

Hourly rate

Performance related pay.

For main crew this will be around £11000 plus hourly rate and performance related pay giving a total of around £19000. Supervisor will be £22000 plus hourly pay plus performance related pay giving a total of around £29000 . Performance related pay would be linked to GPM scores, punctuality, sickness, profit margin etc.

There will be NO incremental salary increases.

How this will affect you on EF

Days off

BA are going to reduce your days off by one per month, which means they’d cram in another Moscow, Athens or Tripoli.

Crew compliments

Reduced as follows!

A319 will have starting ratio of 3 crew on ALL bands!

A320 now operating most flights with a maximum of ONLY 4 crew!

A321 with over 50 club, will only have 5 crew!

They do NOT expect any reduction in on-board service!

Single supervisor

One single SCCM only on ALL flights (no further promotion to PSR/CSD).

18hours off downroute

In disruption, you CANNOT have 18 hours off down route, not matter hard you’ve worked!

Monthly duty payment

A flat monthly duty payment will replace LDP, ETP, ERP and telephone.

So those crew that operate the long duties will lose money.

Transfers from EF, WW and SFG.

There will be NO further plans for any transfers after this current list. The only way to move will be to apply for a new contract on a different fleet. To be clear there will be no more ability to move to any other fleet on current terms and conditions.

I see. So the Newfleet idea hasn't gone away at all, it's just morphed into everybody being forced onto Newfleet terms. Given today is the deadline for negotiations what news is there on the way ahead?

Ouch...looks like it was just three hours of face to face negotiations!

Good luck to all the cc in finding a way through this now.

Next step according to UNITE and BASSA is the branch meeting on July 6th where they will explain everything in details to let the members make an "INFORMED DECISION" after that.

wow,that is a dramatic cut in lifestyle and pay .In th west we are having a race to the bottom in terms of lifestyle and quality of life .The economy is in such an awful state that BA may as well impose these conditions come what may,as the company has nothing to lose as it may just fail regardless .Guys ,we are in deep doo doo ,pilots are no way exempt and it is petty and irrelivant to compare ourselves with them. I personally would rather suffer the pay cut but the single nightstop longrange would ruin the very thing i joined for (apart from sreving our customers,naturally!!).
Nightstop GIG anyone? really exciting .
My only hope is that this is bravado and behind the scenes a better offer will be made and we will all roll over and accept.
BA is not going to be a happy place to work in for a while,life is short,i'm not sure if ill stick around for ever at this rate .
The brutal reality is that there are thousands of perfectly capable who would step straight into uor shoes ,therein lies the problem.
This feels unfair and it is ,how we deal with this as a group (BA) will be a test of us all.
Go easy out there............
PS ,im a "flight deck" but very supportive of our crew

Andy S:
Not everybody makes rational decisions. Human beings are not machines.
Emotions cloud everybodys judgement whether it be rage and anger or lust and envy.

You may not understand it but it exists in all of us. Whether you like it or not some people will bring the world crashing down around them and sod the consequences.

A lot of what I have read from BA proposal about disruption and operational flexibility is only what most other airlines do now anyway.

A new contract which is more or less what BASSA mentioned in their proposal, so...

This could be described as the 'Big Bang'. :ooh:

Is everyone forced onto it or is this just for new joiners and those seeking promotion? Sorry if being dull, jetlagged.

Many of these proposed t's & c's are similar to those 'enjoyed' by crew elsewhere.

Nobody is forced onto the new contract but there will not be any further promotions to CSD and PSR posts on current contracts. Future crew will also be recruited onto the new contract and this is where future promotions will take place.

Also, if you want to transfer to another fleet you would have to accept the new contract.

Ta, that's what I thought.

Anyone care to speculate on the likely reaction?

Either BA and UNITE will come to a mutual agreement or most crew will vote for a strike. Reactions on most crew forums are very strong and the message is crystal clear.

The reaction. It seems we are now picking up speed towards the ultimate sanction.

However the 30th isn't over yet.

The BA proposals deteriorated rather than compromised. I honestly feel that Walsh wants talks to fail, I'm increasingly concerned that Walsh would like BA to fail in its current entity. As has been noted elsewhere. No agreement and the entire house of cards falls.

This latest proposal suggests that BA didn't accept the 'elegant' solution of abolishing the telephone allowance and introducing the ME back to backs to save the required hundred mill or so.

How could they be so blind to such a 'clever' offer(as it was described to me by a bassa member yesterday?!)

Let me guess ...... it wasn't 'clever'?

Neither was BA's latest counter proposal.

So BA values its crew at 'market rate + 10%'. Now we know what WW thinks. I reckon it was a bad idea to annoy him with full use of disruption agreement earlier this year. :uhoh:

nuigini,

As you seem to be informed how will the 'single on-board management grade' integrate with the proposed CSD/Purser figures bearing in mind Mixed Fleet is scrapped.

Also, you have posted BASSA's summary of the MOA.

How about this gem from the MOA albeit hyperlinked from the BASSA website.

'The next pay review will be in February 2011 when BA will review basic pay, variable pay, and incremental pay increases, taking into account all relevant circumstances, including but not limited to, company performance and employee productivity.'

Oh dear! Make a note in your diaries!

Tofster,

my 2ps worth: strange how my wife's P60 (new contract purser) is closer to 28K

S S

Hmmm whilst I think BASSA's counterproposal was not "going to happen" I can't help that feel some aspects of the BA proposal are a little harsh.

It certainly isn't a set of proposals that BA could possibly hope to expect crew to swallow without a fight. Certainly the cessation of promotion opportunity without effectively taking a pay cut is rather a dampener on people's career prospects.

Whilst I know crew elsewhere are far worse off I still think there could have been a greater degree of tact within what BA have tabled and maybe a carrot to go with the stick.

Not all of it is totally unacceptable though and I think that at least the danger of "old fleets" being starved of work is gone (in fact it seems you will have plenty of work to do with the lack of downroute time!)

Whilst I'd agree change was needed I think it would be unfair of any of us to expect that this will not be deeply upsetting for a generally excellent bunch of Crew - many of whom have given many years loyalty to BA.

Whilst I hope my sympathy for the crew here is clear I have to say that if BASSA are such excellent negotiators how have they allowed BA's proposals to generally deteriorate as opposed to improving!?

That is because your P60 shows taxable pay - not all of yours is taxable. Have a look at your Mortgage letter under epay - add the various figures and you will get a more accurate idea of your top line - unless you are part time/on a bad set of trips at LGW in which case.....

The carrot was an invitation to spend the past few months negotiating a sensible conclusion. Unfortunately, the carrot was ignored. Hence the stick.

Bassa should be ashamed of their actions. They responded to BA's admittedly ambitious proposals, not by using them a starting point together with their own (sensible) suggestions, but by wasting everyone's time on a bunch of off the wall proposals that were never going to be worth 5 minutes serious consideration.

If they were my reps I'd be on the phone asking what they were playing at - this is serious stuff and Bassa's sense of self importance is no longer relevant. The terms and conditions of its members are more important than Bassa's ability to dictate how IFS is run on a day to day basis, since WW has made it plain that the union's days of unrestricted power over IFS managers are over. Bassa should realise that and concentrate on its immediate priority - extracting some sort of reasonable working contract for its members.

My P60 states ?K, that is another big problem for the CC, having a low P60 has advantages, for example children to uni, it can be a great help, and various other means tested items.

About if CC change fleet, they accept new deal and no increments, do they also slip on to the latest pension deal, ie more staff on the MPS and less on the APS/NAPS ?

Stand back, take your own pick up on cash flows/yield/prem cabin/econ cabin/fuel price/pen costs/green taxes etc etc etc, you name it ???

The company has a set of figures in its head, these will be on the slide as time goes by(downward) CC unions have their duty to the CC, can still only guess, these numbers are too different to be fixed over the table.

The above is because unions and company have failed to make progress over many many years, now the company and staff will watch an unhappy show in Jul/Aug.

My thoughts are with all the CC in the coming months........

There is silence, nothing.

The only news is coming from Sky News who are reporting that there will be talks on Wednesday but that BA now want 5000 job cuts from cabin/ground/baggage handlers.

To add, on the BA ESS forum, it is being quoted that the saving from IfCE, which was £82million, has been increased. Unite offered an alledged £173million of savings but BA now want, an unsubstansiated, £210million.

There is no hope whilst posts are moving.

Just saw that! Sign of things to come.... Sky News Story.

Fact is, you continue to fight for your jobs and the airline continues to loose money. Goal posts will change until things change.

BASSA have really stuffed this one up. Instead of spending the last 6 months studying, researching, analysing, preparing and negotiating, it appears they've done nothing but turn up the rhetoric. Had they taken the time to study the cost of every aspect of every crew members agreement they'd have seen exactly what BAs proposals were worth, and fought them on a reasonable basis. Instead, nobody ever saw what BAs proposals were actually worth, BASSA just submitted a counter proposal that clearly wasn't costed and manifestly wouldn't produce the savings required. Their procrastination and prevarication have allowed the deadline to pass, and now the deal is off the table and BA are back seeking punitive savings.

Will BAs new proposal save £210M? Undoubtedly, and a whole lot more to boot. How much more? Only BA know, as it's pretty clear BASSA haven't done the research required to put an accurate cost on the proposal. And now time is of the essence. The train is leaving the station, with the other unions either on board or running along the platform to jump on the last coach. Meanwhile BASSA is dawdling in the ticket hall, hoping to jump the barrier when nobody's looking and ride the train for free.

BASSAs latest news bulletin asks "Fair, Open, Equal, Honest?". Nobody ever said it was going to be equal. Perhaps if they'd spent more time getting their own house in order instead of jealously eyeing other departments they wouldn't be in the mess they are in now.

I can't comment on how the new contracts and SCCM levels will integrate on the current fleets because I don't know the details.

BASSA suggests 767 fleet to be transferred to EF. Have they thought of the current situation with less bookings and that BA actually has to fill the seats to make it profitable to use a wide-body aircraft on EF routes? The 767 still requires minimum crew of 8 which would be costly if BA wouldn't be able to fill the seats. Having read their proposal over and over I still can't honestly see how it would save BA £173 million. I honestly can't and their suggestion for additional B2B, when the company is actually rostering fewer of them, is outrageous. I won't mention about the crew change on the 757 as it has already been covered.

BASSA also suggests in their proposal a new contract instead of introduction of a new fleet at LHR. BA has abolished the new fleet and now suggests a new contract but BASSA is even more upset than before over their suggestion. You can't have your cake and eat it!

Cm, I doubt even you believe that this whole event has been anything other than a precursor to Operation Slash and Burn. With financial uncertainty comes opportunity. Willie must have checked the boardroom wall for paintings by now. The plan was always to offload those expensive pensioners, cut those T & C's, get that share price up, exercise options, encash and run!