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cccp,
Prey tell me what have BASSA helped achieve in the last two years? |
Prey tell me what have BASSA helped achieve in the last two years? |
Union representation for MF is clearly an issue that BASSA either can't or won't get it's head round.
When BA stated that they wanted a separate negotiating body for mixed fleet they were saying they wanted MF to be represented by MF crew who would negotiate terms and conditions for themselves, not existing WW CSD's who make up the majority of BASSA rep numbers. If MF crew decide they want union representation there is nothing BA can legally do to stop them. All they need is sufficient numbers to join. They could choose to join BASSA or the PCCC or even the 'Magic New Fleet Happy Crew Smiley Club'. As long as enough of them joined the company would need to recognise the union (regardless of whether or not it has the word 'union' in it's title...). Arguing the the whole point of MF is for it to be non-union crew really is a waste of time. UK law does not permit employers to do this. |
point. BA intends to make 3,000 redundancies through setting up the new MF of cabin crew. Those of you who have signed new contracts will be Fast Tracked off of the 1948 Redeployment Agreement. |
BlueUpGood.
The point is that it is hypocritical for one group of employees who enjoy a certain standard of t&cs to negotiate t&cs for another group of employees on lesser t&cs. Unless the first group wish to raise the second groups t&cs to their level - which will not happen at BA because it would negate the need for mixed fleet, and defeat the object of mixed fleet. If PCCC is to undertake collective bargainig rights for mixed fleet, then it will need identifiable mixed fleet reps for BA to converse with, likewise for a hugely expanded PCCC on legacy fleets. Come negotiation time BA will not discuss issues on an online annoymous forum with fourty percentage worth of differing views. That defeats the object of collective bargainig. To be credible the PCCC needs to be identifiable and accountable. |
And it will be, but it doesn't have to be right now. BASSA (old contract) have been negotiating for new contract LHR and LGW for years, with no realistic intent of achieving old contract levels for any of them. Trying to claim the PCCC can't represent new fleet because of some sort of moral difficulty is baloney.
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PC767
IMHO The PCCC would be very well advised to keep things relatively low key until the dispute is over. Why do you think BASSA are trying to goad them into going public?
When this dispute is well and truly over, then the PCCC will know the landscape of future industrial relations, and will be best able to maximise on the catastrophic self destruction BASSA has wrought upon itself. This is a long game, and the PCCC already seem to have a sense of perspective that BASSA don't. It's not about today, or tomorrow, but about cabin crew being represented by intelligent realists, who live and work in the real world, and who can work with the people who pay our wages for the mutual benefit of both company and employee. It's a symbiotic relationship - without BA there is no cabin crew, something BASSA are hell bent on disproving, despite Mr Darwin's best efforts. They may succeed and seize the moment, they may not. I sincerely hope they do. All IMHO. |
PC767
The point is that it is hypocritical for one group of employees who enjoy a certain standard of t&cs to negotiate t&cs for another group of employees on lesser t&cs. |
So, would any of the BASSA adherents here like to tell the public at large if their committee has received any ..... [cough] ..... legal 'information' in the last few days which has given them cause to ......[cough, cough] ..... perhaps seriously rethink their position? Just wondering .................. :cool:
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Bit confused by the references to BATUC negotiating the Redeployment agreement.
BATUC (British Airways Trade Union Council) isn't a negotiating body. It is a talking shop. The BA board including Willie give a report back to representatives from all departments on BA on the current state of the business etc. The TU's raise concerns directly to them in return but they do not negotate anything. The Forum which consists of Full Time Officers of the unions were talking to BA re the Redeployment Agreement but I dont think it being discussed at this time. |
Just to make it clear, I do not believe Abbey Road is referring to me!
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Correct! :ok:
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Yellow pen.
Bassa negotiated for t&cs which directly affect them and those they represent. The PCCC on legacy fleets negotiating t&cs for mixed fleet is very different - it doesn't affect them, hence hypocrisy. BlueUpGood. The PCCC, if they are to be taken as credible should be visibly shaping the industrial relations landscape, not lurking like looters after a battle. Perhaps you know something about the PCCC founders that I do not, I do not know who the hell they are so I cannot comment on whether they are intelligent realists or not. They could be a bunch of egotistical glory chasers for all I, and the vast majority know. PCCC, show yourselves, make your point and let us see if you are worth joining or not. I suspect the truth is that you are not worth joining, I suspect the truth is disappointing. |
Abbey Rd,
I'm not a bassa adherent, but I would suggest your question is pointless if not stupid. I would imagine the bassa leadership are ensuring that the 't' and the 'i' are crossed and dotted. Quite obviously BA play every legal card they can at every opportunity. Bassa are perhaps being cautious of BA's responce to any announcement. Therefore the answer you seek will come from the bassa leadership when they have what they require. Perhaps you should email them. |
But, PC767, what could be worse than the representation that cabin crew have at present?
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Methinks that Abbey Road has a little inside info to share!
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PC 767
If that line of argument was true, then as no one from BASSA is MF then should they negotiate on behalf of MF that would be hypocrisy!!! More importantly as DH is no longer an employee of BA how can he have any legitimate input into any negotiation/discussion relating to current employees? Jazzy |
Originally Posted by BASSAwitch
I can assure you that the bassa branch accounts are far from clean.
The branch sec runs it like his own personal fiefdom. I'm sure the Daily Mail has the story ready to print;) Could you please back up this statement issued by you earlier? |
Bassa negotiated for t&cs which directly affect them and those they represent. The PCCC on legacy fleets negotiating t&cs for mixed fleet is very different - it doesn't affect them, hence hypocrisy. I'm not a bassa adherent, but I would suggest your question is pointless if not stupid. Methinks that Abbey Road has a little inside info to share! |
Whatever Abbey Road is hinting at may explain why there has been absolutely no communication or action from BASSA so far, 12 days into the 28 day period. Surely they can't have totally screwed it up again?
edited to say "silly me, of course they could have!":rolleyes: I would imagine the bassa leadership are ensuring that the 't' and the 'i' are crossed and dotted. http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X4874...pmid%3D1398416Now there is, thanks to green granite! |
The Bassa V LGW debate has been done before. To recap, bassa suggested a no vote, LGW crew voted in favour of SFG.
BA committed to closing the regions, cabin crew, pilots, engineers, managers, ground staff et al. Bassa cannot be responsible for the closure, what they did do though was negotiate the best package possible for cabin crew to re-locate. As far as I am bassa are not negotiating for mixed fleet so that point is also irrelevant. I will repeat my consideration, and it is only that, in another way. Would I want somebody from mixed fleet to be negotiating my t&cs on 'legacy' fleet, t&cs which will not affect them. No. |
What is wrong with my comment ottergirl. From either side of the fence we know that bassa leadership have cocked up before. Just perhaps they are determined not to make the same mistakes repeatedly.
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PC767
Whichever union umbrella the Mixed Fleet crew decide to opt for, I imagine they would elect their own reps who would represent them at their own NSP; that could be Unite, GMB, or an independant. BF is on record as saying he expects they will do just that once they have a big enough community to merit it. Our posts crossed. It was a reaction to what Abbey Road was hinting at that triggered my amusement. BASSA have not been known for their thoroughness in dotting or crossing any letters! Sounds as though there could be another upsetting revelation to come and believe it or not, I don't take that much pleasure in cabin crew being ridiculed in the national press! |
Yes, but the reps must be names and not an anonymous forum.
There is no credibility where the reps remain unidentified and unaccountable. |
Just a thought but ......
As the PCCC is in fledgling form and not taking money off of members at the moment then they are, surely, a private group of people who wish to place themselves in the position of offering rational representation to thos who wish it. As they have, in effect, no income the they don't have to produce figures, say where monies originated or produce any other paperwork. When they start to represent employees as a recognised negotiating body within BA and start taking subs then they will be required to keep accounts. Until then they have no such requirement and can release information as and when they wish. Just a thought. |
pc767
Hi pc767,
You make a good go at putting across a different side of the coin, so to speak. However, you and I have both seen what Mr DH does publicly to those that disagree with him so I believe it to be in the best interests of PCCC, and in the worst interests of Bassa, for them to remain anonymous until the PCCC choose to declare who they are. Just goes to show, a faceless and nameless committee have already coaxed over 2,000 members away from Bassa. That shows exactly how useless and worthless Bassa have proved themselves to be! As for people representing Crew on other fleets; Mr DH was shorthaul so that would make all votes from Longhaul members invalid, would it? PCCC is a new Union representing ALL fleets, ask anyone. |
Just thought I'd add my tuppence-worth...
As I understand it "hypocrisy" is saying one thing and doing another, or pretending to be one thing when you are another. Representing a group of whom you are not a member does not fit this definition unless you claim to be a member of the group. As already pointed out, many people represent people even though they are not one of them. Len McClusky is not Cabin Crew, but he represents about 10,000 of them apparently. Neither is DH, but he is well supported as a representative of BASSA members. This does not make them hypocrites; neither would the PCCC be if they reresented Mixed Fleet. The PCCC, as far as I can make out (and I am registered as a member) is not what I would call a "union". It is a bunch of people with similar interests, many of whom would like to build the membership up so that one day it can become a union. No one can blame the founders for not "going public" as we all know the vitriol which will be aimed against them by the more militant members of BASSA - vitriol which could make their lives much more difficult. I am sure they one day hope to become a union and I am sure they are aware that they will have to publish who they are well before that happens; but for now, whilst they do not need to ask for subscriptions, why not let them work anonymously if they so wish? After all, the PCCC is currently simply a group of like-minded people with a website and a forum. M |
So, would any of the BASSA adherents here like to tell the public at large if their committee has received any ..... [cough] ..... legal 'information' in the last few days which has given them cause to ......[cough, cough] ..... perhaps seriously rethink their position? Just wondering ..................! There is also dissatisfaction at the state of the membership records apparently a 'significant' number of ballot forms were sent to non-members, and the person responsible for the upkeep of the records despite being paid handsomely from the Bassa funds has been sub-contracting the work out to another crew member. The last little gem the CSD dropped was the advice from the queen's counsel wasn't quite what they had wanted to hear! Take all this post with a pinch of salt - it was bar talk, but I always believe there is no smoke without fire. |
I'm sorry, I know this has nothing to do with this thread, but Far-Ted, I just love your user name!
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The fact that Bassa will be advised against IA from the legal team will come as no surprise to anyone. So, what will happen now? There will be blood from the active militants, who, having been whipped up to an emotional frenzy, crave another strike to let BA know 'they're not going to be messed with' - even if they're not sure what benefit it will bring them.
P767, the height of hypocrisy is, in my view, where a leader of a union, ie a representative of a work force, who is no longer a member of said workforce, is allowed to remain in office. Can you not see there could be a conflict of interest? Can you not see what an invidious situation that puts all the strike advocates in? Lambs to the slaughter comes to mind. However, if Bassa are indeed advised there can be no legal/protected strike action, it will be very interesting to see what the next move in all this will be? Any views anyone? Oh yes, and by the way, despite a demand to know the ins and outs of the PCCC, I note there has STILL been no response regarding the allocation of subs/funds received from the, albeit dwindling, Bassa membership! Hmm?! |
Missyminx
However, if Bassa are indeed advised there can be no legal/protected strike action, it will be very interesting to see what the next move in all this will be? Any views anyone? 1. More union subs spent hiring Bedfont and paying the burger vans 2. Spleen vented at flight crew in frustration (nearest easy target) 3. Ditto 4. Ditto 5. Ditto.................................... |
Quote: Originally Posted by BASSAwitch I can assure you that the bassa branch accounts are far from clean. The branch sec runs it like his own personal fiefdom. I'm sure the Daily Mail has the story ready to printhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/wink2.gif BASSAwitch! Could you please back up this statement issued by you earlier? This is character assasination pure and simple and no matter what side of the fence you sit on this is simply outrageous. As mentioned in previous postings - I have never worked in such a dreadful atmosphere where the Flight Crew are full of such hatred - this cannot be good for either side. |
Why would any sane person be surprised to hear that the latest Bassa ballot may have legal flaws in it?
They (Unite) were informed at every opportunity about balloting non members the first time around. Mr DH and Co just lapped it all up, went with it regardlessly, and then blamed it all on everyone else. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: How could they possibly expect us all to continue supporting, without questioning, such idiocities. ? Anyone that dared to question any of it; well we all know how Mr DH dealt with them. RIP Bassa, it was nice knowing you but this was Industrial Suicide in such a destructive kamikaze fashion that I cannot hold any sympathy. I recall seeing a Bassa Newsletter stating that those who stood by and did nothing were as guilty as the perpetrators of the injustices. Well, not one single Bassa/Amicus Rep stood up to Mr DH or Ms LM publically, so they shall fall under the same axe. My relationship with Bassa lasted longer than my marriage, and I have no regrets even though they both ended up in similar fashion. Bassa represented us very well in the past; and for that we are all truly grateful. Even Mr DH had a good decade or so in charge. However, the actions and misguidance of Unite and Bassa over the last two years have been unforgiveable and I believe my relationship with them is damged beyond repair. I've moved on, with the PCCC. It might work, it might not. But I am not going back to that abusive and intolerant relationship from whence I came. |
Far Ted.
Trip so good that the pilots announced they were gay!! Jeez, progress is moving a little too fast for my conservative liking! |
Boom Boom!!
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Far Ted.
The post you highlight is quite clearly a wind up. I believe the suggested target has resigned from BA to join a high ranking legal firm, albeit in what capacity I do not know. |
From a previous position that I held for 20 months - unless you have proof of your statement above - you have left yourself wide open to litigation. As mentioned in previous postings - I have never worked in such a dreadful atmosphere where the Flight Crew are full of such hatred - this cannot be good for either side. |
Quote: Originally Posted by Pouletmore I was told earlier today that the dispute is over. Our reps have made a mess of this latest ballot too and I've had enough. Legal advice is going against us and we have no where left to go. I've supported my union unwaveringly for 2 years but enough is enough. I don't want another ballot and I don't want to fight any more. You lot will no doubt crow about how right you were but you know what? I did what my heart and my head told me was right. I have my principles and unlike you crew haters I take no pleasure in seeing people suffer- especially my hard working crew colleagues. I was in this battle to win and we haven't so as I'm no hypocrite I've resigned from the union and from the company. Good luck to you all but for me the humiliation is too much to stomach. But I won't hang around and slag off the union or the reps. They did their best but were outwitted by a stronger adversary. I don't want to be part of a company that despises it's front line staff and I don't want to break bread with scabs (crew or pilots). So I'm outta here. My first and last post on this forum. This post needs highlighting ! This poster I believe is an extremely passionate Bassa supporter and very vocal on the Bassa forum, and is known to be close the Bassa leadership. Despite sitting on the opposite side of the fence I'm sorry to see you go. You have I believe been "mugged off" - yhis is another of your "colleagues" posting as the person you think it is. The person may well be leaving BA - but I know for a fact has posted on this forum in umpteen occasions - and for your infor she most certainly is not "close" to the BASSA leadership. She has her own views and opinions and is often at odds with BASSA - the post is a work of fiction |
Quote: From a previous position that I held for 20 months - unless you have proof of your statement above - you have left yourself wide open to litigation. I'm sure they're terrified! DH would have to sue in a civil court for libel and prove the claim is false. Even if he did, what possible damages could he claim? Quote: As mentioned in previous postings - I have never worked in such a dreadful atmosphere where the Flight Crew are full of such hatred - this cannot be good for either side. You really do attach too much credibility to your dispute. The only hatred around is that of the extreme militants towards their favourite bogeymen. Most flight crew, non-strikers and striking cabin crew are getting on with the job in a perfectly civilised fashion. Only the self-segregating BASSAmentalists believe that they have created an unbridgeable divide. One only has to look at the BASSA forum annd see how much time they spend talking about BALPA and pilots to see that they have long since lost touch with the realities of the dispute and instead have been revelling in their own deep-rooted prejudices. It's all irrelevant now anyway. The leak machine is in full swing and everybody knows there's bad news in the pipeline for BASSA. The dispute is lost, the more informed members know it and for those for whom the humiliation is too great, the great wide world of employment beyond BA awaits. Tomorrow may finally bring the day that BA can call VB day - 'Victory over BASSA'. |
Spot on Far-Ted
MFCREW - you seem to be somewhat riled up my assertion that everyone else is getting on fine. Really, we are. I've had some very pleasant trips this year, socialising with some great crew, strikers and non-strikers alike. Your anger is not our problem. BA is a far more harmonious company than you can imagine if only you could break out of the groupthink which has imprisoned you all. The dispute is over. That's the reality. I shan't be crowing about it on board, but the militant element are going to have to come to terms with it and decide whether they can stomach remaining at BA because if there is one thing this dispute has ensured it's that people are no longer going to tolerate militant, stroppy nonsense on board the aircraft. |
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