Betty girl
 

I think you may work in a vacuum Betty.

Perhaps as a SCCM you are thick skinned and don't see some of the attitudes and prejudices around you? EVEN on EF. Do you ALWAYS challenge things you hear that you know to be wrong, do you always performance manage on the day? Most SCCMs, even the exceptional ones, don't. The BA culture doesn't allow it, so we all pick our battles and let most unacceptable behaviour pass unchallenged. Doesn't happen that way at Emirates, Thomson, EasyJet, Virgin.....

There are good and bad people in all jobs and in all walks of life. BA is a large business and it's not surprising that we can't always see eye to eye with everyone we encounter. BA also has a cultural problem to deal with, where some employees see their employer as the enemy and will frustrate and obstruct any progress the business is trying to make. Window blinds and hot towels in WTP are just two visible examples of this.

Even if the number of obstructors is less than those that are moving forward with the business, it's not surprising that those unwilling to embrace change are remembered and held up as an example of what's wrong at BA.

I applaud and support unconditionally the colleagues that work tirelessly to move the business forward and help in tackling the fierce competition we face. To the others, well they may as well leave......

By the tone and nature of your posts you prove my point completely with regard the type of pilot that chooses to come on a cabin crew thread.

QED.

Thanks BG

So you reject all the points I make?

Perhaps it's the nature of anonymous discussion forums but I can assure you I'll be more to your liking in person. :ok:

Apologies for offending your sensitivities.

Bassawitch,

I wasn't particularly referring to your posts just the posts in general over the last hour.

Sometimes it feels like you are circling like a bunch of sharks picking on every little thing someone says.

I am sure you are lovely to work with as are most pilots and as are most cabin crew. I just get a bit fed up when people talk about us and generalise about a community that has well over 10,000 of us many of whom have married pilots. In fact some pilots have married up to three, not at the same time of course!!!!! We can't all be that bad, can we.

Let's not put our heads in the sand and pretend there's not a problem , when we all know there is!

Part of being a sccm (or a pilot) is taking the responsibility to address those problems.

BG
If you think there are no problems with ANY crew on euro-fleet then you are - quite simply - wrong.

Equally you should read the posts more carefully and will then understand that I , and others, are trying very hard NOT to generalise.
I said that there are many outstanding crew. You said some were "truly good", which made me laugh !!

Like I said, we'll soon see how extensive the problem remains.

Blu Rib,

I have to say that I find your posts very condescending and I personally find that you and about five other pilots generalise all the time.
Just click on your own post history and you will be able to read through all your generalisations.
I find that in life some people look for the best in people and some look for the worst. I do of course see a lot of distressed crew that have been dragged into a unnecessary strike but I haven't yet come across someone that has not been doing a great job looking after our passengers while working under me.

I think you will find that, unfortunately, they will again vote for a strike.

Before you all bite my head off, remember that I am no longer a member of Bassa and have never striked and when I do take the time to impart the feelings of some of the strikers, I generally get shouted down by people who never generalise.

Two sides to every story. Whilst one MF crew member may have their flatmate green, or orange, with envy others are not fairing so well. Having a wife who is an ex-temp, who was invited to join mixed fleet and who declined, I also have friends who are on or close to MF. Friend 1 on the fleet is already looking elsewhere for work, friend 2 had delayed taking up a position on MF and managed to have their temp contract extended on WW. This person may never make it to mixed fleet as she has applied to Monarch Airways. The t&cs and cash are better, maybe even MF plus 10%.

The Blu Riband, what can I say. I know we should fight the argument etc but.....

'many crew have a poor attitude' - perhaps a minority much like a minority of pilots, managers, engineers, office staff, cleaners, red caps et al.

And I hope your last trip didn't have a heavy pilot, meaning the flight deck crew could nominate a first class bed to have a rest in. This may well be your contracted and fought for condition of employment, and I'm happy that you have such a condition, however I'm unhappy that you feel nobody else should have perks or retain t&cs. I'm afraid you paint a very poor picture of cabin crew to any outsider looking in.

There seems to be a few rumours flying around that pilots have been told by Balpa not to volunteer as VCC. Just thought I'd put that little Bassa fib to bed, as it's total rubbish.

Oh and we don't get £2000 for a Bombay, just normal allowances, as if we were on a normal trip.

The Blu Riband
 

As I have no axe to grind with current crew - can I ask why did you decline to let them take their rest in Club - after all the Flight Crew have a Club rest seat and often change it to a seat in First I have been told

MFCREW,

The Club/First rest seat is part of the pilot's agreement. It is also related to whether the aircraft is equipped with bunks.

The cabin crew agreement is curtained rest seats in WT. As BASSA is so keen to stick to agreements at the moment, why would they want cabin crew to move forwards and break that agreement? For now, I'd be inclined to agree with my colleague above.

Human Factor
 

Oh I see - yet another example of "I can, so I will"

So just to "punish" the crew you would also not allow them to sit in Club - this is what I was referring to in my previous post - what a vile atmosphere currently exists.

Betty Girl, just because you believe that all crew on E/F work well does not make it so.

As a S/H captain I certainly think that the vast majority of cabin crew on S/H are a credit to the themselves and the airline. However, there are still a fair number of individuals that should not be operating as cabin crew.

Very, very few pilots are 'anti cabin crew' and it is very annoying when we keep seeing this kind of rubbish being printed. However, a very large majority of us are very anti the pathetic behaviour of bassa. Over many years we have had to watch them swaggering about like bullies, bullying management and their own members.

There have been so many blatant lies from bassa reps (not just exaggerations), that have been proven to be lies, but so many cabin crew seem to believe these lies. THAT is the huge issue about this continuing debacle.

Looking at all the facts and information that have been made public over the last 2 years I am certain that BA are not 'whiter than white', nor that bassa are 'blacker than black' - but I think the grey is certainly a very light shade of grey.

Sadly I think that the continuing bassa lies will be believed and that a strike will have been voted for. I further think that the number voting for strike will be a small minority of the total number of cabin crew, so what purpose will it serve.

Will Untie allow a strike - which based on all the evidence will certainly be unprotected - is maybe not so certain??

How long will BAs patience last - not much longer I feel, especially now that 'Legal' are in charge!

It has nothing to do with "punishment", MFCREW. It has everything to do with consistency.

If BASSA wish crew to stick rigidly to their agreements, why should they subsequently pick and choose which parts of those agreements they wish to stick to?

Any "vile atmosphere" which exists is due to BASSA and BASSA alone. For the record, I am actually on shorthaul and have had no "atmospheric" issues with Eurofleet crew at all. Ironically, I have had some pleasant conversations with strikers about this very issue with no animosity in either direction.

Sporran,
I can only speak as I see it on MY flights. I have not seen any crew with a bad attitude on ANY of my flights.

Maybe I set a different tone to some SCCMs but as I have only flown a couple of times, when working down, with other SCCMs who had a similar style to me incidentally, I can obviously only speak for my own crew and not for the ones you fly with.

It is very easy indeed to come on a forum like this and give the general public a completely slanted view of BA cabin crew and as I say it is the same old names time and again.

I am sure there are a lot of pilots that see things as I do but maybe unlike us saddos they are busy leading a normal life rather than posting on here and putting down their colleagues all the time.

Amazingly you can get put down on here for saying you have good crews that don't show a bad attitude. Basically whatever I say is torn to shreds unless I am putting Bassa down which of course I do do from time to time.

Well there you are Sporran and Blue rib,

Human Factor has not had any E/F crew with a bad attitude. I am not the only one. Are either of you on E/F or do you just assume all crew are the same and GENERALISE.

Human Factor has had the same experience as me in that just because someone decided to strike it does not make them a bad crew member.

I sure am glad that I am on E/F.

MF Crew you said

The cabin crew have been told in crew notices and also in Cabin Crew News that they may only take their rest in their crew rest seats or in bunks. Yet they still sometimes ask if they can take their rest in 1st when there are no passengers in that section. I used to let them with a few provisos. I don't risk that now because on another flight one of the cabin crew who took rest in First subsequently reported the Captain. One of those sad occasions where one person ruins it for the rest.

One time I would let the cabin crew rest in Club would be if it was a long range flight, ie Singapore where they are entitled to horizontal rest and for some reason, such as a low air flow warning, the bunks were unavailable.

Incidentally if I am on a 2 flight crew sector and there are bunks on board I will always let the cabin crew use the flight crew bunks or overhead rest area. We have nothing to lose and it helps the harmony.

This forum often gives the impression that flight and cabin crew are daggers drawn all the time. Not so at all and as per usual I have recently had some great rapport both off and on the plane with our cabin crews. I just tend to avoid certain topics of conversation. Let's hope a solution is found soon.

Thanks Suninmyeyes for what I see as a balanced view and as I say I have great relationships with all the pilots I work with.

I feel it is a great shame that a few posters and as I have said, it is the same ones ALL the time, continually tar all cabin crew with this poisonous view that they have.

Anyone that did not fly would think we all despise each other and that is not true. As I said many pilots are married to cabin crew and particularly on E/F we often go out to eat together or have a drink down in the bar, strikers and non-strikers alike.

Plus there are some pilots that have a lot of sympathy with the situation that crew are in and are not at all happy that some of their colleagues acted as volunteers but of course all believe that Bassa handled this badly as do I and all the thousands of us that did not strike.

MFCREW,

As a CSD, I would not allow my crew to take rest in the Club or First cabin.

Unfortunately, CSDs have been reported in the past for doing such, so it is just not worth it.

At the end of the day the CSD is accountable for such actions and therefore risks getting into trouble, facing possible suspension.

It might be seen as a 'perk' to some but the cabin crew who might enjoy their rest in a First or Club seat don't have to face the risk of being reported.

Our agreements require us to have horizontal rest provided on a box 2 and above. Horizontal rest on any other flights is a bonus but not a requirement.

Besides, what impression does it give if 8 crew take their rest in a cabin with fare paying customers in? Not very professional.

My opinion, of course.

Sporran
I am surprised that you think that 'there are a fair number of crew on Eurofleet who should not be operating as cabin crew' because like Betty I would say that there are but a handful out of a community of 2700. I have encountered only two who have required some specific managing and have heard of a couple more through the CSD rumour network. I also am aware that the main crew talk of one or two pursers who strike fear in their hearts and 1 legendary CSD although I don't get to fly with either anymore! (Definately not Bettygirl may I say!)
As for 'anti cabin crew pilots', only a couple of those that I can detect on the Airbus and it may be that they just are anti-everything and everyone! It (Eurofleet) is largely a harmonious community on both sides of the door but, it may be that if your flights are not so then there is a common denominating factor?:E

Blu Riband
Absolutely and I am addressing them wherever I find them. However it pained me to hear a Captain describe a recent encounter with aforesaid legendary CSD and admit that he did not challenge her lack of SEP pre-flight checks because he "didn't want to make things any worse!" We all need to step up here and four stripes gives you a lot more authority than any of the main crew would have had on that flight.

Betty Girl
 

Ouch! I'm sure you may not have meant it in the way that it was written, but given that you are unhappy with inferences that from some people the CC job isn't a rocket science job, don't you think your statement is rather inflammatory?
Worth bearing in mind that the training for Check-in is longer that the CC training, which if it was an unskilled job, would rather reflect poorly on the role of CC.

I would like to clarify, that i think the CC job, when done properly IS a taxing one. Just as is check-in, as is loading etc. CC as a role may not need a huge list of qualifications, but dealing with the public in a controlled environment, whilst working fairly long days, and remembering lots of procedures and regs is tiring, and doing so with a genuine smile on your face is not easy. Likewise for check-in agents with 20 people waiting in front of their desk to check in, or the agents in NCL with 16,000 cases waiting and a permanently flashing phone.
The skill in any job, no matter how many or few qualifications it needs, is doing whatever it involves properly, and doing it wholeheartedly. Pilot, check in agent, CC, engineer or loader, all have different skills and challenges, but all require genuine effort to be great at it.

Ottergirl,

I did not say that there is lack of harmony on my flights - and if you had flown with me I am certain you would agree!!:ok:

It is about balance! I have stated many times that the vast majority of cabin crew do a good job, but all I am saying is that there are still some real bad eggs. Whether or not they went on strike is immaterial in the way that I treat crew. I always try and treat people the way I would like to be treated myself. That policy has worked very well over many, many years!!

This debate is NOT about pilots versus cabin crew - no matter that some people seem intent on making it so.

I believe that this dispute started purely because bassa reps did not want to lose their power, and their over-stated ability to affect the operation. Alas, it now also appears to be about a lack of trust from a group of people towards their management. Trust is a two-way street and it is sad to see some factions doing their utmost to poison any chance of trust in the future.

The coming weeks are not going to be any more pleasant for all of us. I just hope that the matter will be resolved soon and then we can all start the difficult process of building bridges!

BAALLtheway,

Of course I don't think those jobs are unskilled anymore than I think cabin crews job is unskilled. My point was that people keep on saying that the cabin crew job is unskilled and we should think ourselves lucky to have a job.

Constantly we are being told, on this thread only I will add, that in this day and age we should only expect to work for a couple of years before moving on because our job is only worth low wages and it is not a career anymore.

I was just using examples of other jobs that have the same entry level educational qualifications and wondered if it would be acceptable to say they were unskilled and you should only aspire to have your jobs for a couple of years to save BA all those pension costs etc. and that none of them can be a career either. I don't feel that myself, I feel the complete opposite, I was saying it to show, some of the posters on this thread, how unpleasant their posts sound and how unacceptable that kind of attitude is. I was being sarcastic so to speak.

I think all working people contribute to our airline and our country and we all have a vital job to do. I think if you reread it you might realise what I was saying and it is the complete opposite to the way you have taken it.

Hope that clarifies that for you.

Added to say that I personally feel if quoting something someone says it's best practice to quote the whole sentence and not just a few select words that can be misinterpreted when taken out of the context of the sentence. Not having a go at you BAALLthway but I notice that Blue rib and other do it regularly and it changes what people meant.
Many thanks BG.

Betty Girl,

I think you generally post a lot of well thought out and balanced views here, but I am having trouble with your continued defence of all cabin crew.

None of the recent posters, as far as I can see, is attempting to 'tar all crew with the same brush'. On the contrary many are making it quite explicit that the majority of cabin crew they fly with are no problem at all. They are merely stating what is, in all honesty, almost inevitable in a company the size of BA - some people don't like their job, the people they work with (notably from other departments) and the company they work for.

In a work force of some 10,000 is that really so much of a surprise? There are indeed cabin crew who dislike pilots, regardless of the fact that many others are married to them. Just because most normal people are able to get along fine with each other it doesn't mean all cabin crew get on fine with all pilots (and vice versa).

A lot of this ill feeling comes from fairly minor 'snubs', in my opinion. If the cabin crew board the plane and the flight crew are already on board (pretty common on shorthaul) would you expect them to pause briefly at the (always open) flight deck door and shout a quick hello/wave? I would, I believe its simple courtesy. Would you be surprised to learn that probably 50% of cabin crew do not, for whatever reason, do this, heading straight to the back of the aircraft and requiring the Capt/FO to come down and see them?

Similarly I've had several occasions recently where a decent crew have got off the aircraft on a nightstop and walked off through the terminal without waiting for the pilots. These were not flights with a bad atmosphere, in fact on at least one of these occaisions we met up later for dinner.

These are small things, I agree, but the impression you get from working with a crew who behave like this is pretty negative. It doesn't take much (the odd yellow pen for example) to make people start jumping to conclusions here - 'Ahh, they're strikers, they didn't say hello when they boarded so it's obvious they hate pilots.....'

All,

Just so we are all clear on the issue.

Flight Crew are absolutly entitled to take rest in First class (in fact any seat on the aircarft), or swap a rest seat in Club for one in first once the doors are closed.

Please read your manuals. If CC notices say something different they are incorrect.

ATB

8029848s

I don't think anyone has disputed the fact that flight crew can take their rest anywhere they like.

I am cabin crew and, as far as I am concerned, the Captain is in charge of everyone and everything on board. He can do (and tell people to do) whatever he likes as long as it is within the law - and that includes upgrading people!!! He may have to account for himself back at base if he made a really strange decision, but whilst on board he is totally in charge.

The Blu Ribband was asked for his motivation in declining the request for cabin crew to take their rest in Club. It is only in very exceptional circumstances that I have seen cabin crew take their rest in Club with passengers in the cabin (for reasons such as mentioned by Suninmyeyes) - maybe twice in 15 years - and very few crew would expect it.

However, one rule which baffles many of us is that, despite the fact that it is specifically stated that pilots are allowed their crew rest in First, Club or anywhere else regardless of passengers in the cabin, cabin crew are not allowed to rest in Club even if there are no passengers in club at all - and therefore we are not disturbing anyone and no passenger should know we were there. It is not something I think any of us loses sleep over, but a strange rule - for which I believe CSDs have been reported and disciplined for breaching in the past.

Anyway, in summary, no one disputes the flight crew can take their rest anywhere; but it is strange that the cabin crew cannot take their rest in Club even if it is completely empty of passengers. But it really isn't an issue worth worrying about.

spin doctor,

I see exactly what you are saying but I think all the descriptions you give work both ways.

I was just getting a bit fed up and I know many other cabin crew feel the same, of people posting on hear about crew as if flying with BA cabin crew in general is a horrid experience. I know there must be a few bad apples but in general pilots and cabin crew get on very well in BA.

Anyone from another airline or a member of the general public would not see that view from reading these cabin crew threads. They would see a completely distorted view posted by a few particular posters constantly taking the worst examples of cabin crew and portraying it as if that is normal on BA.

I just wanted people to know that many of us don't experience BA like this. I despite all that is going on, which I do find very upsetting, am having a great relationship with ALL pilots whether they be in charge of the aircraft or commuters or just sitting on the car park bus. I witness daily Worldwide crew and their pilots chatting away in the security area and at the bus stop after a flight quite happily.

Of course I know that on Worldwide, there has been and it stems back over thirty plus years , a dislike of each other from some on BOTH sides of the door. Maybe the VCC situation has reignited all this but in general and especially the younger CSDs this has been improving on Worldwide and I just would hate people to think that all this nastiness is the norm because it is not.

That's all. Trouble is on hear you make a post trying to explain things as you see it and you get basically pulled to shreds, not by you, and it kind of looks like you are going on and on and on but your just defending your original post really.

Mesmer,
What a great first post.

Totally see what you are saying. Very well put.

....there will be plenty to discuss later today after all remember :-)

BBC News - BA awaiting strike ballot result

I was told the rule about cabin crew not taking rest in First/Club came about after the Naroibi incident, when it transpired rather more people were taking rest than should have been. Anyone familiar with the investigation here? (The real one, not the 'medals for all and the Orient Express' one!)

There has always been a rule that Cabin crew should not sleep in passenger cabins, at least for the almost quarter of a century that I have been flying! What has varied has been the punishment handed out for transgressions. I can remember a SCCM being stripped of rank as long ago as 1990ish for sleeping in First. Personally the only exception to this I have made is when I have a crew member who is unwell and then only after consultation with the skipper or when ferrying an empty aircraft when all rules are suspended!

A very pragmatic approach Ottergirl. Those empty ferry flights can be rather good fun! I remember being served breakfast by my crew in their pyjamas once!

Meanwhile back at the OK corral. On some of the other forums, they believe its going to be an 80%+ YES on a %80-90 turnout, mainly due to LGW now 'supporting' Unite. :ugh::ugh::ugh: NO chance IMHO

The previous posts are typical BA, 6000 + cabin crew about to go out on strike ,a dispute that has been running for over 2 years and people are discussing where they can sleep on the aircraft.

Really? :)

Stormin norman,
Just out of interest, what airline do you work for.

Looking through your posting history you seem to have a view about all airlines.

Up until now I think people probably thought you worked for BA but looking at all your post I'm not sure who you work for now. Just interested.

ottergirl,
im no doubting that you are correct re this crew rest rule .Can you actually qoute it or point me in the right direction as to where it is written? I simply can not find it written down myself ,even using the emanuals.......fact or custom and practice ,i can't be sure

So you don't think saying 'Typical BA' is not a blanket attack on all of us then. It was after all a pilot that introduced this ridiculous debate about where you can rest in the aircraft. By introducing one of his usual generalisations about cabin crew into this thread. Don't you think.

Obviously tightshot took it the same way as I did. Irrelevant and just done to be unpleasant.

Theres a risk of being oversensitive here.

How can "typical BA" be personal? It absolutely is typical of BA (as a company) to be focussing on the irrelevant whilst missing the big picture. I see no mention of cabin crew.

Your post was however directly personal.