I shall be interested to also see what's presented. Of course they are going to have their wishlist which would be "pay them nothing and have them work for free". Dream on guys! :E Hopefully with the view that any improvement on that abyssmal situation would then be perceived by crew as a win. Hence getting a new low EBA through based on the perception by crew that this was something we fought for and won. Basic negotiation ploy, start low and give only a mm at a time.

Don't use their first attempt as the benchmark for negotiations. Use the current conditions as the benchmark and work from there. Remember that the current conditions are not a ridiculously luxurious lifestyle as they would have you believe. Anyone with a mortgage or rent to pay will tell you that. :=

The airline has been profitable for eight years paying crew exactly what it is now. It even enabled them to buy over 50 planes it was so profitable and set up two new large bases AND spawn a new airline. If they want more from crew they have to be willing to trade off something themselves. That's why it's called negotiations, not a roadshow.

If it's in your contract that there will be an annual increase with no nomination of specific dates until (ie, 3% commencing may 2002 and every year thereafter) they must follow through with it.

3% pay rises expired in 2007 when the FAAA negotiated for a pay rise and back pay for 2006 and 2007. Managers have said no pay rise till the EBA gets voted in which is fine by me because to vote it yes at the moment I will be needing at least a 10% pay rise per anum for the life of the EBA to make up for the extra money I will be short every month.

We have all constructed our lives around the money we get paid. We love the job because of the working hours we have. Take both away and the incentive to stay goes, not only for me but for many others. They tell us guests love us because of the culture, take that away and then what are we.

Meanwhile waste money on managers, magazines and various other things. Like AirborneSoon said there are probably heaps of other ways to save money at VB, just ask the people who patch it all together every day.

You and I.

Current EBA
 

As shoppingcart said it won't be easy for the company to terminate the current EBA.

Are you aware that from January 2010 the workchoices introduced by John Howard will be rolled back and more 'favourable for employees' laws introduced?

2010 sounds a long time away but its not when you consider how long the negotiations have been going on with the current EBA. By the time the company and FAAA renegotiate and then Virgin may go to a tribunal to have the current EBA terminated it could easily be 2010.

Companies must 'bargain' once again from January 2010 so don't say yes to anything until 2010 (unless they did offer a good EBA).

a right, no not since enterprise bargaining laws arrived
all increases have to be bargained for
6% increases since current agreement expired is because FAAA bargained it
but what if our company wont bargain with us?
stop being a workforce and become a force to be reckoned with
thats how bargaining has survived so far, ahead of 2010 new IR laws

Shoppingcart's got a good point too. Don't be fooled into thinking they can just ring someone at the IRC and get the nod to cancel our EBA. It's much more complicated and expensive than that. At the end of the day it will be cheaper, and more effective for the company to negotiate with us than oppose us all the way to the tribunal.

changes in IR laws
 

Yes 2010 is a short way off, however changes to portions of the laws will commence as of 1 July 2009, which is why there is such a big push to get the eba through asap, from 1 July 2009, "good faith bargaining" will be compulsory along with bargaining with unions where there is a majority of employee support. This will allow cc to take a tougher stance in negotiations, an employer can be forced to negotiate and you will not be forced to sign up to an agreement that is not agreed upon.

So, maybe the FAAA has not been as strong in negotiations and they could have been, these laws will help change that, so join up and ensure that we have the loudest voice possible, that we can take a stronger stance.

The court system is a little more complicated than a company just phoning up and saying "we need to scrap our agreement", even at Coles deli you have to take a number to be served. Don't be ingnorant and believe everything you are told, they are relying on people to be threatened and overwhelmed. They will have to apply, wait their turn, in the meantime, legislation will change and we will have a stronger negotiation stance.

Don't be bullied anymore, stand up for your rights. We can't go backwards, where will that leave us in the future, five years down the track when we are renogotiating again.

Don't be fooled by "economic crisis' threats, the company made a huge profit last year, they just invested it on other projects such as V Australia, Mr Godrey and others still received their pay rises and bonuses.

Qantas cc fought to get what they deserved, we are worthy of our current eba conditions plus more, we helped make the airline what it is today. In 2004 we all received a letter saying we would get salary increases because of all the awards we won etc etc, well aren't we still holding our own out there???? SHOW ME THE MONEY

Can someone please confirm that the offer as it stands is:

Pay increase of 2.5%!!!!

Scrap Available days!

Work you longer hours (which in turn will reduce overnights - if they can tag an extra sector on to you to get you home)

Increased maternity leave - which of course is oh so useful to the blokes and the girls that don't wish to have kids.

I also couldn't care less about maternity leave either, what about the crew who do not choose "children" as their lifestyle? :rolleyes: Plus be careful, with the goverment's proposed changes to maternity leave you could very well end up with something that is only what they are required to provide by law.

It only makes sense to trade off basic working conditions for increased mat leave IF...

1. Maternity leave is important to you, safe to say that for at least 50% of crew it is not.
2. You end up with something significantly more than what is required by law.

I wouldn't mind the maternity leave thing if it applied to all crew equally. Meaning if you didn't have any children you are still entitled to the same paid leave and return to work conditions for doing something else you choose to do (perhaps subject to years of service).

Ozangel

no final offer yet
crew discussions only so far
3 options out there which might make the final offer
management are shopping around for which option we like (cough:yuk:) best
2.5% pay increase is option A in exchange for max 140 in 28day rosters same number of days off same daily hours home base rest reduces to 12 away from home base rest stays at 10 and will have to work a full reserve roster increase of part time positions by 150 daily overtime between 9 and 945 disappears but still paid over 945 but they dont say if double time or time and half avl pay only received if work over 140 overnight allowance $3 per hour maternity and paternity leave 12 months same as IR laws now
Option B is 3.5% per annum and option C is 4% pa but the conditions in reply are worse except for maternity and paternity leave and away from home base rest under option B work 145 before avl rate paid and option C 150 before avl
next step is to tell management what we think of their options in a survey
we need to shop around for new management
theres no value in option A B or C
put in black and white that their shopping list needs to be bargained first before anything is voted on

What a bloody disgrace it all is! Where do I start? Hmmmm let's start with the DTA of $3/$3.30 per hour - WHAT AN INSULT!! Look at other airlines - Rumour on the street is that QF are on around $5.45. Skywest - A regional. They're on $4.80, it's shortly to be increased to $5.00. QFlink contract crew (another regional) - $4.30 - again to be increased very soon to around the $4.50 mark. Even MAM are just under $5 an hour!! How about Tiger/Jetstar/Alliance/Ozjet? Anyone got any insight into what they get?

Did you know that by getting us to do 28 day rosters they get us to work a whole other roster in a year. So an extra 140+ hours in a 12 month period. Stuff the extra day off!!!

Maternity leave - not something I'm particularly fussed about giving away stuff for. Their deal is pretty lousy anyhow. QF get 2 years mat leave. Another regional gets 12 months from the date of the birth of the child, plus 6 weeks paid, plus the right to return to work in a part time capacity until the child reaches school age. The mat leave part timers are extra to the number of PT positions every other crew member has the right to apply for. Infact a case was heard in the commission with regard to a mother who wanted to be able to return to her job in a part time capacity until the child reached school age. The employer said no. She took them to the IR commission & they ruled in her favour. This set the precedence for the mat leave return to work PT positions over & above for the other regional carrier.

Pay increases - given that inflation is somewhere around 4%, we should be at least entitled to that amount!! From memory one airline just got 12% over 3 years which equated to 2% 1st year, 4% 2nd year & 6% on the 3rd year.

Scrapping of AVL days - they could NEVER not have reserve crew. An airline couldn't run without reserve crews. There will always be AVL days in some capacity. Fine if they don't want to pay me for them, but the hours I do count toward my monthly hours & if I work outside my original rostered AVL hours then they pay me an hourly rate (such as QF's IPD) But they're not getting them for nothing!!

Overtime at 10hours or whatever the hell it is. A JOKE! One regional in particular gets time & a half from 8 - 10 hours & double time from 10 hours. QF are after 8.5 & again at 10. In a normal job where we worked 9-5 monday to friday, with our weekends off, public holidays off & when they're never away from home they'd get OT after say 8 hours generally. Or at least in a government job you'd get Flexitime!!
Actually lets look at QCCD conditions. Which remember are lower than those crew that are on the "old" contracts at QF.....

The following details have been released (on Qantas Domestic Pty Limited letterhead paper)

- annual salary $35, 531
- annual increases of 3% in annual salary, relevant allowances, incentive pay and overtime rates
- immediate access to Staff Travel subsidiary benefits (subject to serving 6 months as MAM)
- duty hour penalty rates for working unsociable hours, weekend days, company approved public holidays
- DTA identical to crew employed under EBA 7
- access to OBM upgrade opportunities, when available after July 2010 (OBM salary starting at $58, 140.41)
- incentive pay in addition to annual salary (for hours worked over 120 hours)
- overtime rates in addition to annual salary for duty hours exceeding 8.5 in a day and 10 in a day
- rest periods identical to crew employed under EBA 7
- duty hour limitations identical to those crew employed under EBA 7
- same number of designated days off in each roster period as crew employed under EBA 7
- fair share rostering system
- ability to exchange duties or days off (trips swaps) with other crew (with certain restrictions)
- rosters built to maximise language utilisation for crew employed as language speakers
- annual leave of 42 days per annum
- annual leave loading of 11.67%
- long service leave after 10 years employment
- paid personal/carers leave
- parental leave (incl. maternity, paternity, and adoption leave) of up to 104 weeks, including up to 16 weeks paid maternity leave

Not so bad, incomparison to VB's offerings, for a contract that was created to basically undercut QF shorthaul crew huh?!?! I've bolded a few areas that are of interest to us as VB crew in relation to how far short of the mark the company is falling in giving us something decent. Note that they get incentive pay for hours worked over 120!!! Look at the time at which overtime kicks in. Look at the mat leave.........

What VB are offering is a load of rot. There is no going forward for us at all. It's all backwards! How on EARTH they think crew are going to agree to this crap is beyond me! Perhaps they think by using bullying and scare tactics in telling us in a round about way that if we don't sign it they'll take us to the commission & force us onto it, we'll buckle and agree to it. I know the crew are a lot smarter than they give them credit for!! The commission would look at VB's case, and then the FAAA's (on our behalf). No doubt the FAAA would go in with the surveys - both the FAAA survey & the VB ones and it could be seen there PLAIN AS DAY that most everything they are trying to get us to agree to, we DID NOT and still DO NOT WANT! Any commissioner in their right mind would see that there were valid reasons we voted the EBA down again.

Sure there will be things we would be willing to give up in order to get better conditions but they actually have to BARGAIN for that! (Bargain?? Bargain?? What on earth does that word mean!?!?! ;))

We won't give up with out a fight & we won't be bullied into backing down so easily. Those of you who still have EBA roadshows to attend, use the above info given and question them on why they're falling so far short of the mark. Make sure other crew out there online are aware of what it's like at other airlines & how what VB is proposing is a comedy act.

Stick together & we'll all come out on top!!

With regard to your post about maternity leave, that is correct and additionally upon returning to work at the completion of the leave they are offerred the option to take up temporary part time positions.

why don't you or your representatives put together three options to management? then you would be starting true negotiations... doesn't mean managers have to like any of them!

The three options would be:

1. Current Option +3% payrise.

2. Current Option +4% payrise.

3. Current Option +6%payrise.

I don't think management realise that we have been on the current EBA since 2002 and people don't want a change. All you are doing with these roadshows is wasting more money that apparently we need to save. Lets say $1.5-2million for the failed EBA and the current proposal. How much money are they expecting to save if we were silly enough to vote in there proposal? $5million over 5years. So if we keep voting down agreements not only wont they save any money they will have wasted as much trying.
Its time for this foolishness to end. Look at other areas before the whole workforce is unionised and asking for 10% pa.

PS I would vote for number 3. It would be the first real payrise since 2005. 2006 and 2007 were just 3% CPI increases when the company was at its best.

Good posts.

Agree wholeheartedly.

It's time to infect your colleagues with your ballsy attitude, and show these clowns what their cabin crew are really worth.

Protected industrial action does not have to mean strike, but so far, the dimwit managers have been playing hardball and getting away with it.

I know a way to save a fortune! SACK the BMs and the DMs. Those haphazard clowns dont have a clue what theyre doing. They only seem to get the job because they love stirring the pot and 'creating' trouble, led by a couple of blackberry loving 'im so funky' shirt wearing to**er BMs.

Other airlines do without them, and get BETTER results.

Why should CC compromise on ONE CENT when the company continues to insist on employing morale damaging, legally dangerous, underqualified clowns in management roles.

They're playing hardball, lets get a bigger stick!

Time for another no vote...:ok:

Its not my fault...

There's an economic downturn
The company decided to invest in an international fleet
The price of oil is not where it was 8 years ago
There's an oversupply of seats in market

This is business, and all the risks associated with it. But you don't manage your business risks by expecting your employees to fund company profits from their wages. Management and office staff have a wage freeze - NOT a wage CUT! When management reduce their own and all office staff wages by 20% they can come and talk to me about doing the same.

Until then I will vote no.

backward offer
backward thinking
has to pass the disadvantage test
maybe IR law makers should have management take a psych test
their options are not worth thinking about any further
waste of our time and their money
if its 4 or 5% more money we're shopping for its av $2k per cc $3m total
moving to 140/28 day rosters alone nets them approx $5m in productivity
if we trade monthly rosters to 130/28 we would still have change left over

No!
 

Vote of No Confidence
 

before we go to the bother of voting no to an indecent proposal
in one resounding voice tell them not to waste money on a vote
bargaining always comes first in any business deal before price is settled on
if they wont bargain and live up to their own policy of a fair go
there are consequences
turn the tables this time its us dealing out consequences
the more they bully us the more desperate they show us they are
the higher the stakes

Just for your info current DTA for MAM (which I believe is the same for QF S/H) is $5.15.
:)