Reporting culture in emirates
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Reporting culture in emirates
I'm not sure if this has been done before or not. If so, here it is again, and still relevant given events of the last few weeks.
A number of pursers have been reported by junior crew lately. Arguably, the most note-worthy is the case of a purser who allowed a rest break in excess of the maximum required. On a ULR flight (up to 16hrs flight time) the max is 3:30. It was a light load and the purser allowed 4:30.
The crew accepted the extra time, gratefully. When the trip was complete back in Dubai and they were safely away, one of the crew (having accepted the longer break) then wrote an email to her own manager (CCM) and reported the events.
This led to the purser being demoted to SFS with consequent loss of purser basic salary (which leads to less profit share if there is ever another share), less living-out allowance, lower rate for flight hours, and the black mark in the file. If it is a Final Warning, there is no share at all for this purser for two years.
Some of these pursers are trying to make a career out of the job and live outside of company accomodation with a spouse and children. Being screwed over by a GR2 has a massive impact on the lifestyle of the entire family of the purser.
There is little to be done about this mindset. Some Captains tell their crew there is to be no reporting of fellow crew on his aircraft. This makes some crew squirm at the time however it won't stop them squealing once they get home.
I do not understand why some crew think this is a perfectly acceptable form of behaviour.
Somehow the crew have been indoctrinated to believe this is just fine. I thought it was not as common these days but obviously the back-stabbing is alive and well. In this case, the crew was a GR2 with a few months time in the company.
From where do brand new crew get this habit in emirates?
A number of pursers have been reported by junior crew lately. Arguably, the most note-worthy is the case of a purser who allowed a rest break in excess of the maximum required. On a ULR flight (up to 16hrs flight time) the max is 3:30. It was a light load and the purser allowed 4:30.
The crew accepted the extra time, gratefully. When the trip was complete back in Dubai and they were safely away, one of the crew (having accepted the longer break) then wrote an email to her own manager (CCM) and reported the events.
This led to the purser being demoted to SFS with consequent loss of purser basic salary (which leads to less profit share if there is ever another share), less living-out allowance, lower rate for flight hours, and the black mark in the file. If it is a Final Warning, there is no share at all for this purser for two years.
Some of these pursers are trying to make a career out of the job and live outside of company accomodation with a spouse and children. Being screwed over by a GR2 has a massive impact on the lifestyle of the entire family of the purser.
There is little to be done about this mindset. Some Captains tell their crew there is to be no reporting of fellow crew on his aircraft. This makes some crew squirm at the time however it won't stop them squealing once they get home.
I do not understand why some crew think this is a perfectly acceptable form of behaviour.
Somehow the crew have been indoctrinated to believe this is just fine. I thought it was not as common these days but obviously the back-stabbing is alive and well. In this case, the crew was a GR2 with a few months time in the company.
From where do brand new crew get this habit in emirates?
If that manager was half decent he/she would have 'torn up' that report and demoted the junior, especially after accepting the extra hour and not challenging the purser at the time.
God knows what these juniors hope to achieve by reporting such trivial incidents. Maybe this crew member thinks that respect comes with the position. My only guess is that they want to become 'little hitlers' in the future. It looks like a culture issue and makes crew wary of each other watching their backs. This in turn leads to insecurity and possibly reflects on customer service.
God knows what these juniors hope to achieve by reporting such trivial incidents. Maybe this crew member thinks that respect comes with the position. My only guess is that they want to become 'little hitlers' in the future. It looks like a culture issue and makes crew wary of each other watching their backs. This in turn leads to insecurity and possibly reflects on customer service.
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Is this just EK or could it be E#
I was under the impression that it happened also in that airline that can not be mentioned, more than EK....
But I do not have a secret handshake.
GlF
But I do not have a secret handshake.
GlF
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Wtf...
Seriously? I can't believe this! This crew should be fired, this is my honest opinion. If I was the manager, I would check the passport just to make sure this person is really older than 21 (behaviour says this person isn't a grown up), plus asking whether she/he lied in the interview when she/he claimed to be a teamplayer and loved working TOGETHER with other people (and not backstabbing them).
My friend is working at the other big E-airline in the Emirate which you are asking about GSA, and yes, things like that happen every now and then there, a bit more often than in EK. In my 18 months I never experienced such behaviour though, luckily.
They/we get their behaviour from training college. We've been told to report everything we see which is not according to company standards or rules and regulations. I think it is necessairy to report shortfalls in safety and security, I did it once, but I still went to the SFS first to tell her that I have observed her NOT doing her security checks and I expected her to say she was going to do it immediately but instead I got a reply like: you have NO idea how hard my job is and I JUST don't have time to do my searches
Really? So my conclusion was she never did her searches and went to the Purser who reported her later. I know myself time is often to short but we always can ask for more time, the more often we do it, the better the chances that we get a bit more time in the future.
I had a Purser once giving us more rest than needed (same situation, night flight, fairly empty). He said: "I would like to give you all xx hours rest instead of yy. Anyone here not ok with this? Good because If you accept it now, and going to report me later, we're all going to be a team, we're all saying we only had yy hours rest and you will be the liar - don't risk it. Good night ladies and gents"
My friend is working at the other big E-airline in the Emirate which you are asking about GSA, and yes, things like that happen every now and then there, a bit more often than in EK. In my 18 months I never experienced such behaviour though, luckily.
They/we get their behaviour from training college. We've been told to report everything we see which is not according to company standards or rules and regulations. I think it is necessairy to report shortfalls in safety and security, I did it once, but I still went to the SFS first to tell her that I have observed her NOT doing her security checks and I expected her to say she was going to do it immediately but instead I got a reply like: you have NO idea how hard my job is and I JUST don't have time to do my searches
Really? So my conclusion was she never did her searches and went to the Purser who reported her later. I know myself time is often to short but we always can ask for more time, the more often we do it, the better the chances that we get a bit more time in the future. I had a Purser once giving us more rest than needed (same situation, night flight, fairly empty). He said: "I would like to give you all xx hours rest instead of yy. Anyone here not ok with this? Good because If you accept it now, and going to report me later, we're all going to be a team, we're all saying we only had yy hours rest and you will be the liar - don't risk it. Good night ladies and gents"
To be fair I don't think its coming from training college (or, the crew concerned are misunderstanding the explanation of reporting) because a few weeks ago we were discussing this kind of scenario and they emphatically told us that if we are going to report something serious (for example, the situation Seja mentioned) that as a courtesy we should first inform the seniors who were on the flight that we wish to report x for reason Y, and allow them a chance to respond/fix. And only then if we are not satisfied that they have listened to the feedback to lodge a report- but still to tell them (except in the case of confidential reporting of course for safety issues)
I reckon it's an attitude thing, and down to the type of person they are in the first place, rather than something which is being encouraged...
I reckon it's an attitude thing, and down to the type of person they are in the first place, rather than something which is being encouraged...
not acceptble.
Be professional and at all times, uphold safety and commercial standards but, alienate them. Make them feel unwelcome and unworthy.
What if you were wrong in your information? What if the person you are 'alienating' had nothing to do with the reporting at all? (We all know how Galley FM works) You are now a less effective team in the event of an emergency simply through some childish attitude, congratulations you've just added another hole in the Swiss cheese.
Frankly I'm surprised anyone would suggest or condone such a course of action. It's really very immature and has no place in the world of modern CRM. If you are following your SOPs and doing what you should be doing then you have nothing to worry about. If you believe that someone is not following SOPs then be an adult and bring it up with them first. Yes it's sad that someone got in trouble for trying to do a good turn, however this is in the minority of cases (only time I have ever heard of this) so to suggest that a culture of group bullying is the answer is shortsighted in the extreme.
Ultimately it is the cabin crew manager at fault. They have had the opportunity to use their discretion and they have chosen not to. Sure, the junior crew member should really consider if this is the route he/she wants to take considering both social and professional implications but the action taken against the purser wasn't in their hands, it was in the managers.
Sorry but by doing the latter you are not doing the former. Going out of your way to alienate and bully a member of the crew for a perceived wrongdoing is in no way professional or upholding safety. The team dynamic would be as bad as, if not worse than it would be from isolated cases of wrongful reporting.
Don't give me any of that CRM huggy fluffy BS, that went out the window when the junior grade went outside the team to tell tales on a fellow crew member.
Isolate, alienate, then watch them leave, works like a charm on all but the worst sociopaths.
As for the CC managers, don't get me started
Last edited by Monarch Man; 10th Jul 2012 at 08:45.
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Given that the facts are correct, what is not acceptable is that disciplinary measures are taken against employees who have used their initiative. Rules and procedures are fine, but sometimes they have to be taken as guidance. Like rest periods. On UL flights, minimum rest periods are understandable but maximums? What is also not acceptable is the sacking those who report events like this.
Eventually what will happen is that EK will pay the price for this. Potentially expensive mistakes, poor customer service but more importantly, dangerous and potentially lethal incidents will be overlooked and go unreported because of the fear of company reprisals. Without reports, no remedial action is possible. True Third-Worldism.
PM
Eventually what will happen is that EK will pay the price for this. Potentially expensive mistakes, poor customer service but more importantly, dangerous and potentially lethal incidents will be overlooked and go unreported because of the fear of company reprisals. Without reports, no remedial action is possible. True Third-Worldism.
PM
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There are two ways of reporting. First, there is the safety aspect, everything handled not according to standards and SOP's should be reported, and people should be encouraged by doing so by showing them that their concerns are being taken serious. Then there is just pure evilness like the case we're discussing here. These people just want to shine in the limelight (they probably expect a Nujoum award or a star of the month award or even a quick upgrade). Our managers should be trained well enough to see the difference and act accordingly! Probably not going to happen... When it comes to rest, check out the rumour buster on EK homepage, KG personally stated several times that suggested rest times are only a guidance and the final decision about the length is at pursers discretion, so I really hope this story is not true.
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A total disgrace. Any one tittle tattling on other crew with things like this should be turned away and told the office is not interested in dibber dobbers! If things like this keep happening crew morale and the atmosphere will change and not for the better!
The PUR is the manager onboard and should be in a position to manage the flight and crew as he/she sees fit. If you have crew sitting around falling asleep, looking like crap and you have crew rest facilities available why can’t you as the ‘Manager’ make the decision to give them rest – they rejuvenate ready for the last service and landing – which is much safer. It’s just common sense.
God I remember the days when we would move passengers from the last row so we could sleep on our breaks in the seats. I even had a 2hour break on a Sanna once when I was a GR2. The good old days! J
The PUR is the manager onboard and should be in a position to manage the flight and crew as he/she sees fit. If you have crew sitting around falling asleep, looking like crap and you have crew rest facilities available why can’t you as the ‘Manager’ make the decision to give them rest – they rejuvenate ready for the last service and landing – which is much safer. It’s just common sense.
God I remember the days when we would move passengers from the last row so we could sleep on our breaks in the seats. I even had a 2hour break on a Sanna once when I was a GR2. The good old days! J
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I don't think this applies to Emirates alone. It is quite clear the person concerned is out to put them-self in the limelight or gain an advantage in one way or another.
I experienced something similar although not in the aviation industry in fact it cost me my job.
Such things happen in every industry. You always will get one who wants to get the better of you.
Is this due to jealousy, an inferior complex or just plain bad character? It is beyond my comprehension!
I experienced something similar although not in the aviation industry in fact it cost me my job.
Such things happen in every industry. You always will get one who wants to get the better of you.
Is this due to jealousy, an inferior complex or just plain bad character? It is beyond my comprehension!
Monarch Man, showing them that you dislike their actions and "alienating, making them feel unwelcome and unworthy' are very different things. The first is acting like an adult and bringing up your issue in an adult manner. The second is acting like children and in the process dividing the work team as some of you accuse management of doing!
By all means discuss the proper channels of reporting with new crew but if you were to do any of the above, you would want to be VERY sure that your information is correct.
I would actually be very careful about jumping on this particular case as I am sure we do not know the full story.
I agree, the reporter was wrong not to speak up at the time, and just accepting the break, but do we know the reasons why they did not? We know that there are many cultures and nationalities working in the specified company and unfortunately not all have the same skills in being assertive or the same authority gradient as others. Most Westerners are very comfortable in questioning their superiors, however other cultures (as a general example, Japanese or Korean) are not since elders and 'superiors' very much have the final say.
I'm not saying this applies in this case but it is worth thinking about. Tell me that as a new crew you never felt apprehensive about questioning your seniors, and I'll say you're probably not telling the truth. Even now I do feel some degree of nervousness and have to ensure that I'm doing it for the right reason (safety, SOP not beign followed) rather than for any other reason...
By all means discuss the proper channels of reporting with new crew but if you were to do any of the above, you would want to be VERY sure that your information is correct.
I would actually be very careful about jumping on this particular case as I am sure we do not know the full story.
I agree, the reporter was wrong not to speak up at the time, and just accepting the break, but do we know the reasons why they did not? We know that there are many cultures and nationalities working in the specified company and unfortunately not all have the same skills in being assertive or the same authority gradient as others. Most Westerners are very comfortable in questioning their superiors, however other cultures (as a general example, Japanese or Korean) are not since elders and 'superiors' very much have the final say.
I'm not saying this applies in this case but it is worth thinking about. Tell me that as a new crew you never felt apprehensive about questioning your seniors, and I'll say you're probably not telling the truth. Even now I do feel some degree of nervousness and have to ensure that I'm doing it for the right reason (safety, SOP not beign followed) rather than for any other reason...
And again I would ask you, how do you know!!!
Are you 100% sure of your information? Crew have a very nasty habit of jumping on a bandwagon due to galley FM, I can cite you a case I know of personally where a whole crew (in a different airline) put around the rumour that one of the girls had slept with a colleague on a layover and it was not true. That girl was bullied and harrassed by her 'team' members for it and eventually ended up quitting the job because people called her 'slut' on flights afterwards. All because of some half-baked story that people not really in the know believed!
I'm not saying it's the same here but we cannot know the full story from something posted on PPRuNe. If true then yes it is shameful behaviour however the issue I took is with the wording of some of the posts here. If you mean not socialising on the layover or whatever, then fine. But these messages come across as intention to bully or harrass said person for something which may or may not be true... and that is very slippery ground.
Again, my point is- distancing yourself (your words) from a crewmember whose actions you do not approve of is very different from 'making them feel unworthy'- which IMHO is behaviour on the same level as what you all claim to hate. Not engaging in galley chitchat is a different beast to making snide comments or throwing looks at someone and no matter what you say ignoring a member of the crew to the point of exclusion will poison the working environment to the detriment of the other crew. You may feel better completely ignoring someone but trust me everyone else (including the pax) notice this kind of thing and then you would have to explain why you are doing this to crew who are not 'in the loop'- again something which is actually not their business if they are not personally acquainted with the case.
Again it's sad that this resulted in someone having their career hurt and loss of benefits etc, however I think this is something for that person to address and take up on their own behalf rather than people going on some campaign to take matters into their own hands. You may just find yourself on the wrong side of the employee regulations. If you are friends of said person then your emotion is understandable but if you are not then again I ask how you can know so definitely and specifically a) who the reporter was and b)the exact details of the case.
This is one isolated incident which I have heard of in the last few years so to run with it and say there is a snitching culture in the airline, is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.
Edit: Could it also be a case of not having the documentation to back up the extra breaks? I've been on flights where for whatever reason breaks were extended and supporting reports written by purser & captain, nothing 'bad' happened because the paper trail was there. Or is there another reason we don't know of why it was not accepted in this case? Most of us will probably never know and therefore is why I am urging caution in running with this on a forum of this type...
Are you 100% sure of your information? Crew have a very nasty habit of jumping on a bandwagon due to galley FM, I can cite you a case I know of personally where a whole crew (in a different airline) put around the rumour that one of the girls had slept with a colleague on a layover and it was not true. That girl was bullied and harrassed by her 'team' members for it and eventually ended up quitting the job because people called her 'slut' on flights afterwards. All because of some half-baked story that people not really in the know believed!
I'm not saying it's the same here but we cannot know the full story from something posted on PPRuNe. If true then yes it is shameful behaviour however the issue I took is with the wording of some of the posts here. If you mean not socialising on the layover or whatever, then fine. But these messages come across as intention to bully or harrass said person for something which may or may not be true... and that is very slippery ground.
Again, my point is- distancing yourself (your words) from a crewmember whose actions you do not approve of is very different from 'making them feel unworthy'- which IMHO is behaviour on the same level as what you all claim to hate. Not engaging in galley chitchat is a different beast to making snide comments or throwing looks at someone and no matter what you say ignoring a member of the crew to the point of exclusion will poison the working environment to the detriment of the other crew. You may feel better completely ignoring someone but trust me everyone else (including the pax) notice this kind of thing and then you would have to explain why you are doing this to crew who are not 'in the loop'- again something which is actually not their business if they are not personally acquainted with the case.
Again it's sad that this resulted in someone having their career hurt and loss of benefits etc, however I think this is something for that person to address and take up on their own behalf rather than people going on some campaign to take matters into their own hands. You may just find yourself on the wrong side of the employee regulations. If you are friends of said person then your emotion is understandable but if you are not then again I ask how you can know so definitely and specifically a) who the reporter was and b)the exact details of the case.
This is one isolated incident which I have heard of in the last few years so to run with it and say there is a snitching culture in the airline, is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.
Edit: Could it also be a case of not having the documentation to back up the extra breaks? I've been on flights where for whatever reason breaks were extended and supporting reports written by purser & captain, nothing 'bad' happened because the paper trail was there. Or is there another reason we don't know of why it was not accepted in this case? Most of us will probably never know and therefore is why I am urging caution in running with this on a forum of this type...
Last edited by givemewings; 12th Jul 2012 at 13:53.
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Perhaps we can put this debate to bed once and for all.
The purser who was demoted had some history. In addition, the rest he gave was extended by some margin over the norm. The final nail in the coffin was the assessment he wrote on one of the crew (Korean). She was not happy that he'd marked her down for not following SOP's. Not a wise thing to do when you don't do the same. She reported him for it.
There has been another incident previous to this where another crew member refused extended rest and then reported it. In fact, there have been several other cases within the last 5 years or so where people have actually been fired but in all cases, there has either been history with the individuals or that the rest given has been in the extreme and has been reported/photographed by passengers or service onboard has suffered.
Personally, if crew have a problem, then bloody well speak up there and then. Do not dob your colleagues in it unless there are serious safety issues that are being ignored. Some of our cabin crew managers are just as spineless for not dealing with it in a mature and practical manner. They are just as much to blame as the feckless reporters.
Rant over!
Harry
The purser who was demoted had some history. In addition, the rest he gave was extended by some margin over the norm. The final nail in the coffin was the assessment he wrote on one of the crew (Korean). She was not happy that he'd marked her down for not following SOP's. Not a wise thing to do when you don't do the same. She reported him for it.
There has been another incident previous to this where another crew member refused extended rest and then reported it. In fact, there have been several other cases within the last 5 years or so where people have actually been fired but in all cases, there has either been history with the individuals or that the rest given has been in the extreme and has been reported/photographed by passengers or service onboard has suffered.
Personally, if crew have a problem, then bloody well speak up there and then. Do not dob your colleagues in it unless there are serious safety issues that are being ignored. Some of our cabin crew managers are just as spineless for not dealing with it in a mature and practical manner. They are just as much to blame as the feckless reporters.
Rant over!
Harry
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Harry,
It's not uncommon in cases like this for the claim of "history" to be made. The fact is, there are many crew who have no history of the type to which I believe you refer but who inevitably cross paths with one of the reporting mindset and end up on the rug if events go a particular way. I know this purser and I sincerely doubt there is "history".
The crew have had it instilled in them that when you have a grievance or when you see a chance to gain ground by someone else's transgression, real or perceived, one should take the opportunity and make a report; and worse - that this is acceptable social behaviour.
Certain cultures in this multi-cultural airline seem more predisposed toward this sort of thing than others. But while some people here have cultural backgrounds in which shameless, gutless stabbing is an everyday part of life, they have also been encouraged by some element of the training experience and/or the management to continue this despicable behaviour rather than dealing with events as adults.
This disjointed lack of cohesion and camaraderie engendering distrust and friction is part of the hidden downside of of EK's >100 mother tongues experience which is advertised to the public.
It's not uncommon in cases like this for the claim of "history" to be made. The fact is, there are many crew who have no history of the type to which I believe you refer but who inevitably cross paths with one of the reporting mindset and end up on the rug if events go a particular way. I know this purser and I sincerely doubt there is "history".
The crew have had it instilled in them that when you have a grievance or when you see a chance to gain ground by someone else's transgression, real or perceived, one should take the opportunity and make a report; and worse - that this is acceptable social behaviour.
Certain cultures in this multi-cultural airline seem more predisposed toward this sort of thing than others. But while some people here have cultural backgrounds in which shameless, gutless stabbing is an everyday part of life, they have also been encouraged by some element of the training experience and/or the management to continue this despicable behaviour rather than dealing with events as adults.
This disjointed lack of cohesion and camaraderie engendering distrust and friction is part of the hidden downside of of EK's >100 mother tongues experience which is advertised to the public.
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Have these managers ever operated? Good commonsense in my book. In Qatar it is drilled into CC by trainers that they are to report pilots who leave the flight deck without their caps on...and such reports demonstrate their loyalty to the company!!! Thought EK was more progressive than this.