People in Economy that insist on using Business Class toilets .
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People in Economy that insist on using Business Class toilets .
Personally from my point of view First and Business class customers pay premium for sitting in their own cabin area and having the use of the facilities they have paid for.
More elderly people , people with medical requirements medical and children aside that may not be able to "hold on", what are your views on people coming in from Economy through the curtain and using the First/Business class toilets when operating in the premium cabins as crew? Discuss.
More elderly people , people with medical requirements medical and children aside that may not be able to "hold on", what are your views on people coming in from Economy through the curtain and using the First/Business class toilets when operating in the premium cabins as crew? Discuss.
Last edited by Cool Wavy NG738; 28th Oct 2010 at 13:22. Reason: typo
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I agree with you that business and forst class cabins are separated for a reason and have more number of toilets per pax than in economy. The challenge here is, how do you tell an economy pax not to cross the curtain as they have not paid to be seated in that cabin area? It is a very uncomfortable situation, where cc have to find a solution that affends no-one. In an airline I used to work at, when there were long queues for economy toilets we used to discreetly "escort" one economy pax at a time to the business class toliets. I don't think anyone in business class ever noticed or had a problem with that.
At the end of the day, everyone has the right to use a toilet when one is available, rgardless of what seating they paid for. And the answer I think lies exactly here, economy pax have not paid to SIT in business cabins and enjoy the difference in service there but they have certainly paid to be able to use toilet facilities in whichever cabin this may be available. As long as they don't disturb the "piece and quiet" biz or first pax paid extra for, I don't see how they could be denied access to toilets there.
At the end of the day, everyone has the right to use a toilet when one is available, rgardless of what seating they paid for. And the answer I think lies exactly here, economy pax have not paid to SIT in business cabins and enjoy the difference in service there but they have certainly paid to be able to use toilet facilities in whichever cabin this may be available. As long as they don't disturb the "piece and quiet" biz or first pax paid extra for, I don't see how they could be denied access to toilets there.
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I agree that there should be some kind of hard barrier. It annoys me too that the facilities (for which I have pais a tidy sum) ar used at peak times by Y pax.
It would help if, as well as the curtain, airlines used a rope across the walkway as they do between the first class galley and the cabin behind it.
It would help if, as well as the curtain, airlines used a rope across the walkway as they do between the first class galley and the cabin behind it.
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That entirely depends on the airline´s policies, and on the extent to which their policies match their practice baggersup.
For CC to be willing and able to enforce class-conscious peeing, a few conditions have to be in place:
Another factor is USA rules regarding toilet use on flights to/from a USA destination. The Captain has to make a pre take-off speech about no group-loitering anywhere on board being allowed, and about people using the lavatory in their own area and class. The CC have to enforce this, while at the same time making sure that the elderly, the infirm and children can use the closest unoccupied lav available.
All said and done, I believe it is entirely reasonable for First and Business class pax to expect toilets for their exclusive use. For exactly the reasons mentioned by baggersup.
We aim to be nice to everybody, but undeniably, some p..s are more equal than others.
For CC to be willing and able to enforce class-conscious peeing, a few conditions have to be in place:
- The airline has a policy mandating it.
- CC have been trained on diplomatic yet effective ways of challenging pax bahaviour.
- CC know that the company will back them up in case diplomacy doesn´t work and a pap kicks up a written stink after the flight.
Another factor is USA rules regarding toilet use on flights to/from a USA destination. The Captain has to make a pre take-off speech about no group-loitering anywhere on board being allowed, and about people using the lavatory in their own area and class. The CC have to enforce this, while at the same time making sure that the elderly, the infirm and children can use the closest unoccupied lav available.
All said and done, I believe it is entirely reasonable for First and Business class pax to expect toilets for their exclusive use. For exactly the reasons mentioned by baggersup.
We aim to be nice to everybody, but undeniably, some p..s are more equal than others.
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Try spending a night in 11A Club World and having "visitors" clomping past all night back and forth to the toilets (or to steal the food from the Club World kitchen when the cabin crew backs are turned), women smashing you in the arm and head with their huge handbags while you are trying to sleep. That focuses the mind on why people who shouldn't be there need to stay in their own cabins.
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The real problem is not so much people using the loo, as a stream of extra people walking through and adding to the noise experienced.
At the end of the day, an airliner is a public transport vehicle, so one is not going to experience the solitude of a private jet, but if the airline has charged a substantial premium for premium accomodation, then it should use reasonable efforts to deliver that promise.
A word often used by airlines to describe their premium offerings is 'exclusive', which by its very definition means keeping others out.
Bottom line, if the accomodation (i.e. cabin) is sold by class, then it should be mainly restricted to the people who bought that class and the crew should be trained (and performance managed) to discretely enforce this.
I usually travel long haul business and would not dream of using the first class loos (or any other part of that accomodation, out of respect for the premium those pax have paid to enjoy a higher level of service and peace and quiet.)
With respect to Flaps Forty, if a cabin crew member cannot competently influence passenger behaviour in a discrete way, they should not be working in a premium cabin, not least because (sadly) one gets enough awkward characters in there, who can be very difficult to manage.
Sometimes, what should be a relaxing journey, turns into an ordeal because of the behaviour of some business class pax, but that is another matter, for another thread.
One final point, as a J class pax sleeping through the night, I really do appreciate cabin crew who master the art of walking lightly through the cabin and minimising the amount of time the curtain to the galley is open when entering/exiting
This really does make a big difference to quality of sleep.
At the end of the day, an airliner is a public transport vehicle, so one is not going to experience the solitude of a private jet, but if the airline has charged a substantial premium for premium accomodation, then it should use reasonable efforts to deliver that promise.
A word often used by airlines to describe their premium offerings is 'exclusive', which by its very definition means keeping others out.
Bottom line, if the accomodation (i.e. cabin) is sold by class, then it should be mainly restricted to the people who bought that class and the crew should be trained (and performance managed) to discretely enforce this.
I usually travel long haul business and would not dream of using the first class loos (or any other part of that accomodation, out of respect for the premium those pax have paid to enjoy a higher level of service and peace and quiet.)
With respect to Flaps Forty, if a cabin crew member cannot competently influence passenger behaviour in a discrete way, they should not be working in a premium cabin, not least because (sadly) one gets enough awkward characters in there, who can be very difficult to manage.
Sometimes, what should be a relaxing journey, turns into an ordeal because of the behaviour of some business class pax, but that is another matter, for another thread.
One final point, as a J class pax sleeping through the night, I really do appreciate cabin crew who master the art of walking lightly through the cabin and minimising the amount of time the curtain to the galley is open when entering/exiting
This really does make a big difference to quality of sleep.
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As a "one time user" of aircraft transportation,I fully understand the annoyance from a "first class" passenger when the premium seat holder invades their space. However, those of us in the world with alimentary systems that would not pass a full MOT,children et al, do not have the luxury of "time" on their side to wait for the appropriate loo vacancy. As Steve McQueen said to Paul Newman in the Towering Inferno..."When you want to build one of these things architect, come and see me first". Its a pity plane designers do not use this maxim for common sense to pravail. Flying with Delta quite a few years ago, their aircraft had quite a goodly number of "loos" at the rear of the aircraft and scattered throughout. The trolley blocking posed little if any inconvenience. I dont suppose anyone is really interested but the outcome of all this is a section of society who now no longer wish to fly. The protracted wait in the terminal, queue,s,security search,walk to boarding and flight duration has now given way to a cruise. It is income wittingly lost to the airlines all because of poor thoughtless design.
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I save up every 2 years to afford the treat of flying long haul in business class with BA. I totally look forward to, and enjoy the whole experience and don't give a fig if some one in economy wants to use the loo i have saved for 2 years to use. Why would i spoil the experience with the distraction of ill feelings, towards some one who needs to relieve themselves?
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Justanopinion
I respect your views as an infrequent flyer in the premium classes and am very pleased that you enjoy this experience, long may it continue to give you pleasure. I am treating my wife and kids to J class at Xmas, they will be thrilled.
The problem for frequent business travellers is that we are normally enroute between meetings or some other event, very tired, sometimes jetlagged and most likely having to go to work when we get off the bus.
It isn't pleasurable, it isn't relaxing and all we want to do is sleep on overnight flights and very often during day flights, too. The more people wandering through the cabin, the less quality of sleep, simples.
Contrary to popular rumour, the frequent business travellers that I know don't see premium classes as making them in some way superior to those in economy, just as a method of surviving another day. There are some prats who probably do think they are superior, but see my comments in my post above.
Hope that gives you some context.
I respect your views as an infrequent flyer in the premium classes and am very pleased that you enjoy this experience, long may it continue to give you pleasure. I am treating my wife and kids to J class at Xmas, they will be thrilled.
The problem for frequent business travellers is that we are normally enroute between meetings or some other event, very tired, sometimes jetlagged and most likely having to go to work when we get off the bus.
It isn't pleasurable, it isn't relaxing and all we want to do is sleep on overnight flights and very often during day flights, too. The more people wandering through the cabin, the less quality of sleep, simples.
Contrary to popular rumour, the frequent business travellers that I know don't see premium classes as making them in some way superior to those in economy, just as a method of surviving another day. There are some prats who probably do think they are superior, but see my comments in my post above.
Hope that gives you some context.
da Silva.
Agree completely. You're not just paying for a bigger seat and nicer food - you're paying for peace and quiet.
It's something that I always carefully and politely controlled, except in cases of desperation (i.e those that physically cant wait for reasons beyond their actions/control - children, medical, elderly etc) - upon which they were discretely escorted to and from.
For the most part, I found it's usually a case of curiosity on the part of economy pax (how do the other half live?) - they usually do know better!
I was recently travelling on a near 7hour flight aboard a 737-800 - 2hrs prior to landing the senior/cm/cs cleaned and locked off the forward toilet. Despite a queue at top of descent, that reached the exit rows(!), which included premium pax and children (one of whom was crying!), her grumpy response was that 'i've already cleaned it, and i'm not doing it again before landing'.
Agree completely. You're not just paying for a bigger seat and nicer food - you're paying for peace and quiet.
It's something that I always carefully and politely controlled, except in cases of desperation (i.e those that physically cant wait for reasons beyond their actions/control - children, medical, elderly etc) - upon which they were discretely escorted to and from.
For the most part, I found it's usually a case of curiosity on the part of economy pax (how do the other half live?) - they usually do know better!
I was recently travelling on a near 7hour flight aboard a 737-800 - 2hrs prior to landing the senior/cm/cs cleaned and locked off the forward toilet. Despite a queue at top of descent, that reached the exit rows(!), which included premium pax and children (one of whom was crying!), her grumpy response was that 'i've already cleaned it, and i'm not doing it again before landing'.
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Baggers, I couldn't give a toss how much you paid for your seat but when this Tesco class pedestrian needs to go he needs to go. I'll find the closest toilet and sequester myself in it for as long as I like.
Your posts are coming across as a bit elitist old chap.
Your posts are coming across as a bit elitist old chap.
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Thread crrep I know, but has anyone else noticed a trend of economy passengers putting their hand baggage in the overhead lockers in business? This seems to be happening more and more as the econ pax fill up the business lockers and before strolling back to econ.
Often the business pax are last on and find all the lockers in their cabin are full. The cabin crew have a nightmare sorting it all out.
Cheeky monkeys at the back just breeze up as they disembarking and collect their bags as they pass by. I suppose they think it's easier than dragging their bags to the bun fight at the back but it's effectively pinching the lockers paid for by the business pax.
The time it makes me smile though is on the rare occasions that we disemabrk from the rear. Tthe econ pax have to wait until all the others have disembarked before they can go against the flow and get their bags back.
Often the business pax are last on and find all the lockers in their cabin are full. The cabin crew have a nightmare sorting it all out.
Cheeky monkeys at the back just breeze up as they disembarking and collect their bags as they pass by. I suppose they think it's easier than dragging their bags to the bun fight at the back but it's effectively pinching the lockers paid for by the business pax.
The time it makes me smile though is on the rare occasions that we disemabrk from the rear. Tthe econ pax have to wait until all the others have disembarked before they can go against the flow and get their bags back.
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for the airline i work for, i couldnt imagine the flight crew queueing for the toilets in economy, chatting to the stag or hen do about wheres best to go clubbing in ibiza! Flight crew use the fowrard toilet not only to skip the cue but to avoid the majority of passengers to ensure safety so ask a question, why is first/premium cabin at the front of an aircraft and not the rear?
so as safety is an airlines primary concern, lets all stick to the toilets situated in the cabin in which you are sitting hey.
Regards
Ian
so as safety is an airlines primary concern, lets all stick to the toilets situated in the cabin in which you are sitting hey.
Regards
Ian
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Baggers, I couldn't give a toss how much you paid for your seat but when this Tesco class pedestrian needs to go he needs to go. I'll find the closest toilet and sequester myself in it for as long as I like.
That aggressive type of posture is really not on.
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I agree wholeheartedly!
I travel by Air seldom - but love it and am fascinated by the engineering and the industry in general.
It is NOT commonplace to me. Recently,when my wife and I emigrated to Greece, as a special surprise 'treat' I booked us 'up the front' to make our trip memorable. We spent 4 hours sitting next to an economy toilet queue with passangers leaning on the back of our seats and causing noise and disturbance that ruined this 'special' flight.
So I would like to take this opportunity to thank all of the airline passangers WHATEVER THEIR TRAVELLING CLASS who seem to think that they and only they matter.
In my opinion, if you use facilities NOT intended for you - you are a THIEF - and a bloody nuisance!
All the best
Brocstar
I travel by Air seldom - but love it and am fascinated by the engineering and the industry in general.
It is NOT commonplace to me. Recently,when my wife and I emigrated to Greece, as a special surprise 'treat' I booked us 'up the front' to make our trip memorable. We spent 4 hours sitting next to an economy toilet queue with passangers leaning on the back of our seats and causing noise and disturbance that ruined this 'special' flight.
So I would like to take this opportunity to thank all of the airline passangers WHATEVER THEIR TRAVELLING CLASS who seem to think that they and only they matter.
In my opinion, if you use facilities NOT intended for you - you are a THIEF - and a bloody nuisance!
All the best
Brocstar
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I've flown with a few airlines that specifically state that the facilities located in the first/business class cabin are reserved for first/business class patrons.
...as for the likes of Lord Spandex Masher, its hardly elitist. Individuals have paid for a product and expect to receive the benefit of that product, and there are adult undergarments that will help you with your problem.
As for the "takeover" of First/Business class storage space the Cabin Crew on Delta's Manchester/Atlanta flights are wonderful about protecting their premium travelers' space. Smooth as can be, firm but polite "No"s, and directing to the appropriate cabin.
...as for the likes of Lord Spandex Masher, its hardly elitist. Individuals have paid for a product and expect to receive the benefit of that product, and there are adult undergarments that will help you with your problem.
As for the "takeover" of First/Business class storage space the Cabin Crew on Delta's Manchester/Atlanta flights are wonderful about protecting their premium travelers' space. Smooth as can be, firm but polite "No"s, and directing to the appropriate cabin.