BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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It appeared that many of our mainly male pilot colleagues could not accept this: adopting a “upstart trolley dollies should be seen and not heard” approach. Women and mothers attempting to interfere with their destiny, having a say in their own lives was apparently an unthinkable heresy!
Funny that it seems fine for everyone else, except cabin crew, to make a career in BA.
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Originally Posted by MissM
.......it's too costly for the company as it's better, and cheaper, to allow people to fly for a few years and then replace them by new cabin crew. Or the comment about how easily replaced we have been and that cabin crew just need a GCSE in Maths and English.
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Duncan talking tripe as usual.
Sorry Mods, I hope you'll let this stand as it directly addresses the myths within DH's latest missive. Thanks.
BALPA had no part in the dispute, they just refused to 'order' their members NOT to take part in VCC. Oddly enough, as an association, the pilots involved would have ignored it anyway. Neither did they 'organise' anything with respect to VCC or the PCCC. The rep in question, who had attended all of the company/Union/PWC briefings and, as a BALPA rep, had access to the confidential accounts information, decided that he would support the company and resigned from BALPA as a rep as he saw that the two were not condusive. Neither did BALPA 'ask' for support from BASSA over openskies, it was something they were quite happy to take on themselves.
I feel that Duncan finds it difficult to accept that individuals within another Union/Association can think, act and decide for themselves.
It is odd though that far more VCC came from sub branches of Unite than from anywhere else. Are they too guilty of this hienious sexist crime against the bruvverhood?
At least it made me chuckle.
Sorry Mods, I hope you'll let this stand as it directly addresses the myths within DH's latest missive. Thanks.
BALPA had no part in the dispute, they just refused to 'order' their members NOT to take part in VCC. Oddly enough, as an association, the pilots involved would have ignored it anyway. Neither did they 'organise' anything with respect to VCC or the PCCC. The rep in question, who had attended all of the company/Union/PWC briefings and, as a BALPA rep, had access to the confidential accounts information, decided that he would support the company and resigned from BALPA as a rep as he saw that the two were not condusive. Neither did BALPA 'ask' for support from BASSA over openskies, it was something they were quite happy to take on themselves.
I feel that Duncan finds it difficult to accept that individuals within another Union/Association can think, act and decide for themselves.
It is odd though that far more VCC came from sub branches of Unite than from anywhere else. Are they too guilty of this hienious sexist crime against the bruvverhood?
At least it made me chuckle.
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Neither did BALPA 'ask' for support from BASSA over openskies, it was something they were quite happy to take on themselves.
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Who gave whom support MissM? I think it's been made clear several times BASSA were neither asked for nor offered support to BALPA during the OS dispute. If you search your own forum you can find the oft misinterpreted response by BASSA to a members request to attend the march to Waterside. I will paraphrase but it goes along the lines of "You can go if you want but you will be representing yourself, not BASSA".
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I think the biggest problem is that BASSA cannot comprehend/understand how other Unions and indeed other branches of Unite operate.
Comprehension of the facts coupled with an overview of the current business/economic environment and the ability to ascertain whether or not the problem constitutes a major challenge results in a proportionate, rational and measured responce.
The OS challenge was a world away from the disproportinate action of BASSA who have only ever had one responce to change. Comparison is wholly inappropriate.
BASSA failed to understand that calling the action they did would never, ever gain the support of any other group as all other groups had recognised that the action was inappropriate. Now, two years on, the dispute rumbles on, other departments get on with the future and can't be bothered to give a spoilt child Union like BASSA the time of day. Gross misrepresentation of their members pure and simple. The minority messing it up for the majority.
Comprehension of the facts coupled with an overview of the current business/economic environment and the ability to ascertain whether or not the problem constitutes a major challenge results in a proportionate, rational and measured responce.
The OS challenge was a world away from the disproportinate action of BASSA who have only ever had one responce to change. Comparison is wholly inappropriate.
BASSA failed to understand that calling the action they did would never, ever gain the support of any other group as all other groups had recognised that the action was inappropriate. Now, two years on, the dispute rumbles on, other departments get on with the future and can't be bothered to give a spoilt child Union like BASSA the time of day. Gross misrepresentation of their members pure and simple. The minority messing it up for the majority.
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Great post Wirbelsturm (both.....you've just added another!), all correct, and your points can be verified if anyone choses to do so.
Duncan Holley is walking on very thin ice, and hasn't a clue which way to turn. It's a comedy of errors as far as the leadership of BASSA is concerned, and if the potential consequences of its actions weren't so serious, this whole saga would be hilarious.
Any news on the BASSA accounts anyone?
Duncan Holley is walking on very thin ice, and hasn't a clue which way to turn. It's a comedy of errors as far as the leadership of BASSA is concerned, and if the potential consequences of its actions weren't so serious, this whole saga would be hilarious.
Any news on the BASSA accounts anyone?
Last edited by 123breath; 15th Mar 2011 at 19:23.
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After 2 years of dispute with BA this is what DH/BASSA publish 
Is it any wonder that they have made no progress with the concerns of their members, or indeed been able to run a legal ballot when they spend so much time and effort telling lies and blaming the bad pilots for all their mistakes.
I didn't read 1 fact in the latest "news"
It high time that the current "leadership" stepped down and allowed Unite/Bassa/CC89 to start representing its real members on real issues !!!!
Is it any wonder that they have made no progress with the concerns of their members, or indeed been able to run a legal ballot when they spend so much time and effort telling lies and blaming the bad pilots for all their mistakes.
I didn't read 1 fact in the latest "news"
It high time that the current "leadership" stepped down and allowed Unite/Bassa/CC89 to start representing its real members on real issues !!!!
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I'm totally foxed by Unite's comment about pregnant cabin crew. I thought that the EU regs dictated that female cabin crew stopped flying as soon as they learned they were pregnant. BA regs state that in these circumstances the individual will be assigned to ground duties at their home base. Now I appreciate that there are cabin crew who used to have home bases nearer their current abode, so it might seem a little harsh under such circumstances, however, I don't really have any sympathy for those who out of choice have elected to live a fair hike from either LHR or LGW.
If you look at the rest of the BA workforce, no other female employees are allowed to take on what is in effect lighter duties as soon as they become pregnant. Unite's argument seems to be that female cabin crew who are pregnant should be allowed to turn down work if it doesn't fit with their travelling arrangements, yet get paid not only their basic, but also a proportion of their flying allowances, effectively for at least 5 months prior to giving birth. Whilst procreation is a wonderful thing and lord knows I've had fun doing my bit, I find it incredible that any body of people could believe that employers should be expected to operate in this manner.
If you look at the rest of the BA workforce, no other female employees are allowed to take on what is in effect lighter duties as soon as they become pregnant. Unite's argument seems to be that female cabin crew who are pregnant should be allowed to turn down work if it doesn't fit with their travelling arrangements, yet get paid not only their basic, but also a proportion of their flying allowances, effectively for at least 5 months prior to giving birth. Whilst procreation is a wonderful thing and lord knows I've had fun doing my bit, I find it incredible that any body of people could believe that employers should be expected to operate in this manner.
I find it incredible that any body of people could believe that employers should be expected to operate in this manner.
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Fender Strat,
This has nothing to do with what the ramblings are about. It is simply that BASSA has run out of things to say to support their call to arms. If the reasoning behind the intial action bore up to the test of time then the original reasons should be compelling enough to motivate the Union membership. Sadly for DH, who no longer has any vested interest in seeing a successful outcome, BASSA have run out of ideas and is now trawling in every bit of purile mud slinging that the BASSA board can dream up. The changes imposed have enabled all to continue in full time employment and the BASSA hissy-fit has led to the board passing up the ability to control/change/negate the onset of New Fleet. Atrocious representation from someone who's only future is the continued propogation of Industrial Action. (Bedfont must be doing him a big discount by now.)
We have had it all now, the war hero references, the bullying claims, the ludicrous, biased and targeted statistical analysis and the vindictiveness claims. Now the sexual harrassment claims! If BASSA have such a watertight case for IA then campaign on facts not slander.
Your turn Duncan.
This has nothing to do with what the ramblings are about. It is simply that BASSA has run out of things to say to support their call to arms. If the reasoning behind the intial action bore up to the test of time then the original reasons should be compelling enough to motivate the Union membership. Sadly for DH, who no longer has any vested interest in seeing a successful outcome, BASSA have run out of ideas and is now trawling in every bit of purile mud slinging that the BASSA board can dream up. The changes imposed have enabled all to continue in full time employment and the BASSA hissy-fit has led to the board passing up the ability to control/change/negate the onset of New Fleet. Atrocious representation from someone who's only future is the continued propogation of Industrial Action. (Bedfont must be doing him a big discount by now.)
We have had it all now, the war hero references, the bullying claims, the ludicrous, biased and targeted statistical analysis and the vindictiveness claims. Now the sexual harrassment claims! If BASSA have such a watertight case for IA then campaign on facts not slander.
Your turn Duncan.
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Fender Strat
Is struggle quite a bit, trying to work out if I am knowingly or unknowingly discriminatory. As a white, male, middle aged, employed, healthy, heterosexual, C of E person, I am more likely to discriminate, than be discriminated against.
Now just say you have a male and female commuter living within a standby ticket of LHR or LGW. Who would more likely need to move nearer to the base of operation for a pregnancy related reason? Should there be a requirement for women of a child bearing age to live within a reasonable LAND travelling distance from their operating base, or should all employees do the same, regardless of sex?
As I see it, this requirement will only affect women, therefore it would appear on the face of it, to be discriminatory.
I look forward to some more views on this.
Now just say you have a male and female commuter living within a standby ticket of LHR or LGW. Who would more likely need to move nearer to the base of operation for a pregnancy related reason? Should there be a requirement for women of a child bearing age to live within a reasonable LAND travelling distance from their operating base, or should all employees do the same, regardless of sex?
As I see it, this requirement will only affect women, therefore it would appear on the face of it, to be discriminatory.
I look forward to some more views on this.
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Just to clarify things, BA have stated that the instructions to put pregnant cabin crew on unpaid leave if they lived too far away from LHR or LGW was a mistake and they have clarified that this is NOT what should be happening.
Having done BA's own in-house course on Discrimination in the workplace, I can tell you all, that it is definitely not allowed in law to do this to pregnant employees.
Most of these girls would happily report for flying duties but it is BA that don't allow this, some airlines do allow cabin crew to continue to fly, particularly in the second trimester and only ground cabin crew at the beginning of their pregnancy and I believe that this is what happens with our female pilots also. It would be unreasonable to make people move away from their families and live near Heathrow in order to continue to be paid just because they are pregnant and I am glad that BF has stepped in and clarified the situation.
Of course for those like me that lived locally it is quite annoying at the time, when you have to struggle in to work each day and you know that some are sitting at home but that's just life!!
There are 500 pregnant cabin crew on average at any one time and out of those 500, aprox 375 are in work placements, only aprox 125 live too far away to be able to come in and work. I expect if BA could avoid paying them they would but it is against the law and I am sure BA treat our female pilots in the same way if they are grounded due to pregnancy and live too far away to commute.
I expect whoever sent out the memo two weeks ago that started all this and caused quite a few pregnant crew to get very upset and worried is in quite a lot of trouble seeing that it reached some of the tabloid websites today!!
This issue with pregnant crew has nothing to do with DH's rant about female cabin crew which is just a load of twaddle, predominantly the cabin crew that are the most vocal and militant are men and trying to hide behind the skirts of women is just pathetic!!
These are my views and I do not speak for BA
Having done BA's own in-house course on Discrimination in the workplace, I can tell you all, that it is definitely not allowed in law to do this to pregnant employees.
Most of these girls would happily report for flying duties but it is BA that don't allow this, some airlines do allow cabin crew to continue to fly, particularly in the second trimester and only ground cabin crew at the beginning of their pregnancy and I believe that this is what happens with our female pilots also. It would be unreasonable to make people move away from their families and live near Heathrow in order to continue to be paid just because they are pregnant and I am glad that BF has stepped in and clarified the situation.
Of course for those like me that lived locally it is quite annoying at the time, when you have to struggle in to work each day and you know that some are sitting at home but that's just life!!
There are 500 pregnant cabin crew on average at any one time and out of those 500, aprox 375 are in work placements, only aprox 125 live too far away to be able to come in and work. I expect if BA could avoid paying them they would but it is against the law and I am sure BA treat our female pilots in the same way if they are grounded due to pregnancy and live too far away to commute.
I expect whoever sent out the memo two weeks ago that started all this and caused quite a few pregnant crew to get very upset and worried is in quite a lot of trouble seeing that it reached some of the tabloid websites today!!
This issue with pregnant crew has nothing to do with DH's rant about female cabin crew which is just a load of twaddle, predominantly the cabin crew that are the most vocal and militant are men and trying to hide behind the skirts of women is just pathetic!!
These are my views and I do not speak for BA
Last edited by Betty girl; 16th Mar 2011 at 00:37.
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Litebulbs
Quintessentially English I think the phrase is.
You may have seen this in the news recently
BBC News - Midsomer Murders producer suspended over race row
Betty Girl
Don't you think it is a coincidence that the union has brought this up in the middle of a ballot? It is just another item to add to their growing list of issues that they want sorted before the dispute is over.
Let me see, what can they bring up at the next ballot........
As a white, male, middle aged, employed, healthy, heterosexual, C of E person,
You may have seen this in the news recently
BBC News - Midsomer Murders producer suspended over race row
Betty Girl
I expect whoever sent out the memo two weeks ago that started all this and caused quite a few pregnant crew to get very upset and worried is in quite a lot of trouble seeing that it reached some of the tabloid websites today!!
Let me see, what can they bring up at the next ballot........
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Keel Beam,
Obviously Bassa have make the most of the situation, that's hardly surprising as they are in dispute with BA but it does not take away from the fact that BA did in this instance, make a mistake. I don't think even Bassa can control when a BA manager sends out an email!!
This was discussed extensively on the BA ESS cabin crew forum by many cabin crew and the company corrected the situation quickly once they realised that this mistake had happened in the interpretation of the maternity regulations, by whoever sent out this email to all the Crew Managers. It had over the last couple of weeks affected five newly pregnant cabin crew members and BF has corrected the mistake.
Thhese are my own personal views and not those of BA
Obviously Bassa have make the most of the situation, that's hardly surprising as they are in dispute with BA but it does not take away from the fact that BA did in this instance, make a mistake. I don't think even Bassa can control when a BA manager sends out an email!!
This was discussed extensively on the BA ESS cabin crew forum by many cabin crew and the company corrected the situation quickly once they realised that this mistake had happened in the interpretation of the maternity regulations, by whoever sent out this email to all the Crew Managers. It had over the last couple of weeks affected five newly pregnant cabin crew members and BF has corrected the mistake.
Thhese are my own personal views and not those of BA
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Betty Girl
I must admit I conveniently ommited the fact that this was a mistake by BA but seems to have been resolved reasonably quickly by KW.
I don't think the resolving of the pregnancy question will temper the BASSA leadership, though it would be pleasant to be proved wrong.
I must admit I conveniently ommited the fact that this was a mistake by BA but seems to have been resolved reasonably quickly by KW.
I don't think the resolving of the pregnancy question will temper the BASSA leadership, though it would be pleasant to be proved wrong.
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I've just had a peep at the Amicus website www.uniteba.com (an open website) and noticed they have put an interesting photo of WW on the front page. What I don't understand about this type of thing is how Unite can allow a branch to discredit a CEO ( IAG now of course) like this. I'm assuming they must sanction this type of thing or perhaps not. These people keep going on about BA bullying, harassing and behaving irresponsibly, yet here is another example of being TOTALLY unprofessional. It beggars belief. Is it any wonder that BA aren't that interested/bothered about talking.
Also on another forum, a crew member has asked what were the 12 points of the 2007 dispute. Many have answered, but the maximum anyone can remember is 3!! I can think of 8 off the top of my head. Here IMO lies the problem. It doesn't matter what Bassa/ Amicus/Unite want, most members now HATE BA so much, they would strike about anything it seems. I sadly know of a lot of crew who have despised BA management since they started. The dispute is almost irrelavant. Anything to get back at BA is their motto. Its been going on for years I'm afraid. Very sad
Also on another forum, a crew member has asked what were the 12 points of the 2007 dispute. Many have answered, but the maximum anyone can remember is 3!! I can think of 8 off the top of my head. Here IMO lies the problem. It doesn't matter what Bassa/ Amicus/Unite want, most members now HATE BA so much, they would strike about anything it seems. I sadly know of a lot of crew who have despised BA management since they started. The dispute is almost irrelavant. Anything to get back at BA is their motto. Its been going on for years I'm afraid. Very sad