BA and Project Columbus II
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Overstress. I await the figures. But in the meantime you, again, suggest that BAs financial state is down to cabin crew t&cs. Should we match LHs apparent productivity will BAs accounts make equal comparrison with LHs.
Re Heat. My post was not naive, but was over simplistic. The point is, if as our middle managers and a few on this site are to be believed, BA is on the point of collapse. A return to core necessities would be required for any business saving itself from the bring. However BA isn't shrinking to its core. And the short term issues seem to be ignored whilst long term aims are being proposed.
Re Heat. My post was not naive, but was over simplistic. The point is, if as our middle managers and a few on this site are to be believed, BA is on the point of collapse. A return to core necessities would be required for any business saving itself from the bring. However BA isn't shrinking to its core. And the short term issues seem to be ignored whilst long term aims are being proposed.
PPRuNe Person
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PC767: I suggest and have suggested no such thing. The conclusion (re Lufthansa) you have drawn from my posting is not the point I was trying to make! This whole thread is about cc t's & c's though, perhaps you have inferred this from other posters. I do suggest that BA probably still has too high a head count overall. It is also true that BA's cabin crew costs are way above the norm and this is not reflected in any degree of flexibility offered in times of disruption. Those 2 facts would make me feel exposed if I were BA cabin crew.
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Having attended a briefing with WW this evening, one thing is clear; the targets each area has been set are non-negotiable. How they are achieved may be, but the extent of the target is not. Late delivery will just add to the pain as will any strike action as that will cause dramatic cash loss to the business and even bigger targets required of everyone. Even then, if the economic situation worsens, the targets may shift.
BOHICA
BOHICA
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Why would WW say anything different in his briefing ? He's hardly going to say we want x amount of savings , but you know what lets see what happens , half the amount will do !!
Industrial action always damages the bottom line !!
Industrial action always damages the bottom line !!
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A return to the 'Core Product' at BA would mean alot of redundancies across the board. Route closures and aircraft parked up. Something that would be difficult to resurrect at short notice when an upswing comes and we crawl out of recession.
The company is trying to avoid such a scenario as far as I can see.
Unfortunately holding on to 1970's working practices will not help keeping people in jobs and, irrespective of the contrary opinions on this thread, there is an awful lot of fat to be culled in IFS.
Lets hope it's not too late and something productive can finally come out of BASSA.
The company is trying to avoid such a scenario as far as I can see.
Unfortunately holding on to 1970's working practices will not help keeping people in jobs and, irrespective of the contrary opinions on this thread, there is an awful lot of fat to be culled in IFS.
Lets hope it's not too late and something productive can finally come out of BASSA.
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I believe BASSA are advertising a union meeting next month with the headline "Our futures under threat". Probably correct, but under threat from whom would be an interesting question.
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after seeing what bassa published on their website today, i will be going to the meeting!!
Have you seen what they want to take off us.... we are in for a shock.... however, i smell a strike brewing!!
Have you seen what they want to take off us.... we are in for a shock.... however, i smell a strike brewing!!
Well having just seen the alledged "wish list" I can see why some peoples eyes are watering...and I still don't understand why BASSA insisted on hanging onto all the various lump sum payments instead of rolling it all into salary years ago. I've just had to explain to another one of our colleagues that us pilots no longer get Incremental Box payments and how the "allowances" hourly rate works. As a result we haven't presented our management with a ready made hit list (though I would add that despite BASSAs comments the Flight Crew are going to take a hit somewhere).
I do wish our Cabin Crew colleagues well, but I do think they deserved more enlightened representation in the past -I fear now the opportunity has gone
I do wish our Cabin Crew colleagues well, but I do think they deserved more enlightened representation in the past -I fear now the opportunity has gone
Last edited by wiggy; 20th Mar 2009 at 03:21.
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The irony is that, even though the savings 'sum' for flight ops appears smaller, divide the savings required by each department by the number of people in the department and you get a saving of, approximately, £2900 per Cabin Crew and £3600 per Pilot.
So, not so uneven in the direction BASSA would spin it after all.
But then, BASSA have never been particularly renowned for their clarity on these matter.
So, not so uneven in the direction BASSA would spin it after all.
But then, BASSA have never been particularly renowned for their clarity on these matter.
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Well you can't expect BASSA to tell any truth to their members, let alone grasp the complexities of "cost neutral" 
BASSA have calculated that each cabin crew member will be giving up the equivilant of £6000 over the next 2 years, well I can assure you that is LESS than Pilots will be giving up over the next 2 years, but you would not expect BASSA to point this little thimble of truth out to their members
BASSA have calculated that each cabin crew member will be giving up the equivilant of £6000 over the next 2 years, well I can assure you that is LESS than Pilots will be giving up over the next 2 years, but you would not expect BASSA to point this little thimble of truth out to their members
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> Proposals for a New Fleet at LHR: Not for current crew unless joining the fleet>
> A low-cost fleet based on a low cost model (Almost identical to the
> document leaked by BASSA at Christmas).
>
> BA aims to achieve this in the next 2 years. Approaching 1000 crew have
> already been trained and placed in a holding pool.
>
> It will have over 2000 plus crew operating within two years
>
> Market rate paid Cabin Crew in line with virgin plus 10%.
>
> Fleet will consist of mixed flying on Airbus, 777, 747 aircraft.
>
> Crew will consist of 3 new grades, Main Crew, Supervisor and Lead
> Supervisor. Not CSD, Purser and main crew and NOT to current levels.
>
> No ETP, long-range, back-to-back or destination Payments or other variable
> shorthaul payments etc.
>
> A fixed hourly rate.
>
> Pay scales will have no time served increments, any increase in basic pay
> will be performance related.
>
> Merit promotion.
>
> No Seniority.
>
> Crew will not operate to either Worldwide or Shorthaul agreements but to
> BA Scheme Limitations document only - For your information this is covered
> in your Blue Joint Operations procedures manual part 2, pages 78 to 107
> inclusive. A link to show scheme details is also available via the BASSA
> website under agreements.
>
> There will be no MBT etc just scheme days off.
>
> Preference bidding to scheme.
>
> BA project in year one 850 crew to be flying on this new fleet and 2075 by
> end of year two (remember EF has only 2314 crew and LGW single fleet,
> 1189.
>
> Long-term this will lead to the total restructuring of cabin crew costs.
>
> Proposed changes to existing crews terms and conditions ("restrictive
> practices") from this list:
>
> 1) Remove double night on LAX, SFO, PHX, MEX.
>
> 2) Reduce 777 crew compliment by 1 on long-range 4 class.
>
> 3) MBT to be a maximum of 4 local nights irrespective trip.
>
> 4) Reduce annual leave for all crew to 34 days from 36.
>
> 5) Completely flexible rosters, no fixed trips.
>
> 6) One main crew member removed from 777- 3 class.
>
> * Details of item to be confirmed
>
> 7) Annual increment freeze for one year for all crew.
>
> 8) Remove one main crew from worldwide destinations that at present
> receive the extra crew member as agreed post September 11th 2001. For the
> summer they are CCU- DAC- DEN -CPT (042) MAA- MEX- MIA- MRU- PEK
>
> 9) Remove the early report day allowing report times prior to 0800.
>
> 10) Bidding only on EF, ending the 6-3 and 5-2 and job share work
> patterns.
>
> 11) Removal of 767 CSD on EF.
>
> 12) All Crew grades to be planned/rostered to work up or down with no
> extra payment or restriction.
>
> 13) Remove one main crew member from 777 long-range top up.
>
> * Details of Item To be confirmed
>
> 14) Extension on Eurofleet working day from 12.30 hours to 15.00.
>
> 15) Allow earlier report/start and later debrief/finish times.
>
> 16) Replace all 24hr stand-by with 12 hour.
>
> 17) One purser to be removed from all 747 and 777.
>
> 18) Remove EF Club top-up crewing level agreement.
>
> 19) No meal allowances to be triggered whilst in flight.
>
> 20) Reduction of Box-One payments by 50%
>
> 21) Back-To-Back payments to be reduced by 50%.
>
> 22) All destination payments to be permanently removed. For summer these
> will be paid on MIA- LAD -DEN -DAR -SEA YVR- EBB- IAH- DFW -YYC
>
> 23) Pay actual ETP rather than planned.
>
> 24) Remove STR payments and introduce fixed links also with no payment -
> EF.
>
> 25) Replace QRS with airport standby.
>
> 26) Reduce report and debrief times i.e., shorten duty day timings.
>
> 27) Removal of telephone allowance.
>
> 28) Change definition of EF night duty.
>
> 29) Exchange 2 pursers from all 767, 747, 777 to junior crew positions
> (switching roles).
>
> 30) No CSD on 757 EF.
>
> 31) Switch one purser at LGW for main crew member.
>
> These are potentially in addition to a two-year pay freeze.
> A low-cost fleet based on a low cost model (Almost identical to the
> document leaked by BASSA at Christmas).
>
> BA aims to achieve this in the next 2 years. Approaching 1000 crew have
> already been trained and placed in a holding pool.
>
> It will have over 2000 plus crew operating within two years
>
> Market rate paid Cabin Crew in line with virgin plus 10%.
>
> Fleet will consist of mixed flying on Airbus, 777, 747 aircraft.
>
> Crew will consist of 3 new grades, Main Crew, Supervisor and Lead
> Supervisor. Not CSD, Purser and main crew and NOT to current levels.
>
> No ETP, long-range, back-to-back or destination Payments or other variable
> shorthaul payments etc.
>
> A fixed hourly rate.
>
> Pay scales will have no time served increments, any increase in basic pay
> will be performance related.
>
> Merit promotion.
>
> No Seniority.
>
> Crew will not operate to either Worldwide or Shorthaul agreements but to
> BA Scheme Limitations document only - For your information this is covered
> in your Blue Joint Operations procedures manual part 2, pages 78 to 107
> inclusive. A link to show scheme details is also available via the BASSA
> website under agreements.
>
> There will be no MBT etc just scheme days off.
>
> Preference bidding to scheme.
>
> BA project in year one 850 crew to be flying on this new fleet and 2075 by
> end of year two (remember EF has only 2314 crew and LGW single fleet,
> 1189.
>
> Long-term this will lead to the total restructuring of cabin crew costs.
>
> Proposed changes to existing crews terms and conditions ("restrictive
> practices") from this list:
>
> 1) Remove double night on LAX, SFO, PHX, MEX.
>
> 2) Reduce 777 crew compliment by 1 on long-range 4 class.
>
> 3) MBT to be a maximum of 4 local nights irrespective trip.
>
> 4) Reduce annual leave for all crew to 34 days from 36.
>
> 5) Completely flexible rosters, no fixed trips.
>
> 6) One main crew member removed from 777- 3 class.
>
> * Details of item to be confirmed
>
> 7) Annual increment freeze for one year for all crew.
>
> 8) Remove one main crew from worldwide destinations that at present
> receive the extra crew member as agreed post September 11th 2001. For the
> summer they are CCU- DAC- DEN -CPT (042) MAA- MEX- MIA- MRU- PEK
>
> 9) Remove the early report day allowing report times prior to 0800.
>
> 10) Bidding only on EF, ending the 6-3 and 5-2 and job share work
> patterns.
>
> 11) Removal of 767 CSD on EF.
>
> 12) All Crew grades to be planned/rostered to work up or down with no
> extra payment or restriction.
>
> 13) Remove one main crew member from 777 long-range top up.
>
> * Details of Item To be confirmed
>
> 14) Extension on Eurofleet working day from 12.30 hours to 15.00.
>
> 15) Allow earlier report/start and later debrief/finish times.
>
> 16) Replace all 24hr stand-by with 12 hour.
>
> 17) One purser to be removed from all 747 and 777.
>
> 18) Remove EF Club top-up crewing level agreement.
>
> 19) No meal allowances to be triggered whilst in flight.
>
> 20) Reduction of Box-One payments by 50%
>
> 21) Back-To-Back payments to be reduced by 50%.
>
> 22) All destination payments to be permanently removed. For summer these
> will be paid on MIA- LAD -DEN -DAR -SEA YVR- EBB- IAH- DFW -YYC
>
> 23) Pay actual ETP rather than planned.
>
> 24) Remove STR payments and introduce fixed links also with no payment -
> EF.
>
> 25) Replace QRS with airport standby.
>
> 26) Reduce report and debrief times i.e., shorten duty day timings.
>
> 27) Removal of telephone allowance.
>
> 28) Change definition of EF night duty.
>
> 29) Exchange 2 pursers from all 767, 747, 777 to junior crew positions
> (switching roles).
>
> 30) No CSD on 757 EF.
>
> 31) Switch one purser at LGW for main crew member.
>
> These are potentially in addition to a two-year pay freeze.
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For those that are interested and affected by this -
Negotiations on cost-cutting have today resumed.
For the last week it has probably appeared to have all gone away, or at least we could have hoped it had......It categorically has not.
A joint meeting of all the Unions from across the airline that are involved in cost cutting measures was held on Tuesday and information on each of their targeted savings was shared. Last week British Airways had declined to share this information with us. It is apparent that cost saving targets are not equal but vary widely across the airline. For example, the Pilots’ budget is £445 million and they face no cuts. Their only input is to not incur further costs over the next two years. Their projected increase is £13 million and this will be their contribution. The vast majority of other areas will achieve savings by quite a severe headcount reduction but not by changes to terms and conditions (or “restrictive practices” as Willie Walsh prefers to call them).
British Airways has now completed their expectations of the cost cuts for cabin crew. To remind you, the headline facts are again recapped below:
BA states that IFCE costs are £567.9 million per year. Most of that cost is salaries (98.9%).
BA wants to cut this by £82 million (14%) over the next two years, commencing April 1st 2009. This equates to approx £6,000 per person directly from earnings and/or costs. They propose this to be achieved by two separate but linked phases. The “new fleet” would still only save £35 million in its first two years, the remaining £47 million would need to come from existing agreements for current crew i.e. you.
Until now we have been unable to publish this “list” to you due to a confidentiality commitment specified to us when it was received. Our confidentiality commitment regarding this has ended and we have received legal clearance to reveal details to you. The following is a list of proposed and possible cost saving measures to reach the specified target, exactly as they were given to us. What is acceptable or otherwise, is of course the subject of ongoing negotiation but from the list below you will be able to see these are substantial and major issues that will need to be faced. They affect all current crew, no matter which base or agreement you currently operate. It is not just a case of “Oh there’s a new fleet coming but it won’t affect me” - it will.
Proposals for a New Fleet at LHR: Not for current crew unless joining the fleet
A low-cost fleet based on a low cost model (Almost identical to the document leaked by BASSA at Christmas).
BA aims to achieve this in the next 2 years. Approaching 1000 crew have already been trained and placed in a holding pool.
It will have over 2000 plus crew operating within two years
Market rate paid Cabin Crew in line with virgin plus 10%.
Fleet will consist of mixed flying on Airbus, 777, 747 aircraft.
Crew will consist of 3 new grades, Main Crew, Supervisor and Lead Supervisor. Not CSD, Purser and main crew and NOT to current levels.
No ETP, long-range, back-to-back or destination Payments or other variable shorthaul payments etc.
A fixed hourly rate.
Pay scales will have no time served increments, any increase in basic pay will be performance related.
Merit promotion.
No Seniority.
Crew will not operate to either Worldwide or Shorthaul agreements but to BA Scheme Limitations document only - For your information this is covered in your Blue Joint Operations procedures manual part 2, pages 78 to 107 inclusive. A link to show scheme details is also available via the BASSA website under agreements.
There will be no MBT etc just scheme days off.
Preference bidding to scheme.
BA project in year one 850 crew to be flying on this new fleet and 2075 by end of year two (remember EF has only 2314 crew and LGW single fleet, 1189.
Long-term this will lead to the total restructuring of cabin crew costs.
Proposed changes to existing crews terms and conditions (“restrictive practices”) from this list:
1) Remove double night on LAX, SFO, PHX, MEX.
2) Reduce 777 crew compliment by 1 on long-range 4 class.
3) MBT to be a maximum of 4 local nights irrespective trip.
4) Reduce annual leave for all crew to 34 days from 36.
5) Completely flexible rosters, no fixed trips.
6) One main crew member removed from 777- 3 class.
* Details of item to be confirmed
7) Annual increment freeze for one year for all crew.
8) Remove one main crew from worldwide destinations that at present receive the extra crew member as agreed post September 11th 2001. For the summer they are CCU- DAC- DEN -CPT (042) MAA- MEX- MIA- MRU- PEK
9) Remove the early report day allowing report times prior to 0800.
10) Bidding only on EF, ending the 6-3 and 5-2 and job share work patterns.
11) Removal of 767 CSD on EF.
12) All Crew grades to be planned/rostered to work up or down with no extra payment or restriction.
13) Remove one main crew member from 777 long-range top up.
* Details of Item To be confirmed
14) Extension on Eurofleet working day from 12.30 hours to 15.00.
15) Allow earlier report/start and later debrief/finish times.
16) Replace all 24hr stand-by with 12 hour.
17) One purser to be removed from all 747 and 777.
18) Remove EF Club top-up crewing level agreement.
19) No meal allowances to be triggered whilst in flight.
20) Reduction of Box-One payments by 50%
21) Back-To-Back payments to be reduced by 50%.
22) All destination payments to be permanently removed. For summer these will be paid on MIA- LAD -DEN -DAR -SEA YVR- EBB- IAH- DFW -YYC
23) Pay actual ETP rather than planned.
24) Remove STR payments and introduce fixed links also with no payment - EF.
25) Replace QRS with airport standby.
26) Reduce report and debrief times i.e., shorten duty day timings.
27) Removal of telephone allowance.
28) Change definition of EF night duty.
29) Exchange 2 pursers from all 767, 747, 777 to junior crew positions (switching roles).
30) No CSD on 757 EF.
31) Switch one purser at LGW for main crew member.
These are potentially in addition to a two-year pay freeze. Now we have been able to share this list, you will see first-hand the scale of the challenge we face, there are no easy options available. This will require ongoing and extensive consultation between us, as your representatives and you, as our members. This is something you need to become involved in, right now and take an active interest, it will affect every single one of us, it’s not even a question of supporting your union, it’s a question of being involved in some really hard and far reaching decisions that are not going to go away.
BASSA and Amicus sections of UNITE will continue to work closely together to do our best to protect your future, we will not kid you that this is going to be an easy task but please be assured that we will be doing our very best for you.We have now told BA that we will not meet next week as we wanted to start the consultation process with you over the next several days. Talks will however reconvene on the 30th and then obviously we have our branch meeting at Kempton Park on the 6th April when a full and frank debate will no doubt be forthcoming.
Negotiations on cost-cutting have today resumed.
For the last week it has probably appeared to have all gone away, or at least we could have hoped it had......It categorically has not.
A joint meeting of all the Unions from across the airline that are involved in cost cutting measures was held on Tuesday and information on each of their targeted savings was shared. Last week British Airways had declined to share this information with us. It is apparent that cost saving targets are not equal but vary widely across the airline. For example, the Pilots’ budget is £445 million and they face no cuts. Their only input is to not incur further costs over the next two years. Their projected increase is £13 million and this will be their contribution. The vast majority of other areas will achieve savings by quite a severe headcount reduction but not by changes to terms and conditions (or “restrictive practices” as Willie Walsh prefers to call them).
British Airways has now completed their expectations of the cost cuts for cabin crew. To remind you, the headline facts are again recapped below:
BA states that IFCE costs are £567.9 million per year. Most of that cost is salaries (98.9%).
BA wants to cut this by £82 million (14%) over the next two years, commencing April 1st 2009. This equates to approx £6,000 per person directly from earnings and/or costs. They propose this to be achieved by two separate but linked phases. The “new fleet” would still only save £35 million in its first two years, the remaining £47 million would need to come from existing agreements for current crew i.e. you.
Until now we have been unable to publish this “list” to you due to a confidentiality commitment specified to us when it was received. Our confidentiality commitment regarding this has ended and we have received legal clearance to reveal details to you. The following is a list of proposed and possible cost saving measures to reach the specified target, exactly as they were given to us. What is acceptable or otherwise, is of course the subject of ongoing negotiation but from the list below you will be able to see these are substantial and major issues that will need to be faced. They affect all current crew, no matter which base or agreement you currently operate. It is not just a case of “Oh there’s a new fleet coming but it won’t affect me” - it will.
Proposals for a New Fleet at LHR: Not for current crew unless joining the fleet
A low-cost fleet based on a low cost model (Almost identical to the document leaked by BASSA at Christmas).
BA aims to achieve this in the next 2 years. Approaching 1000 crew have already been trained and placed in a holding pool.
It will have over 2000 plus crew operating within two years
Market rate paid Cabin Crew in line with virgin plus 10%.
Fleet will consist of mixed flying on Airbus, 777, 747 aircraft.
Crew will consist of 3 new grades, Main Crew, Supervisor and Lead Supervisor. Not CSD, Purser and main crew and NOT to current levels.
No ETP, long-range, back-to-back or destination Payments or other variable shorthaul payments etc.
A fixed hourly rate.
Pay scales will have no time served increments, any increase in basic pay will be performance related.
Merit promotion.
No Seniority.
Crew will not operate to either Worldwide or Shorthaul agreements but to BA Scheme Limitations document only - For your information this is covered in your Blue Joint Operations procedures manual part 2, pages 78 to 107 inclusive. A link to show scheme details is also available via the BASSA website under agreements.
There will be no MBT etc just scheme days off.
Preference bidding to scheme.
BA project in year one 850 crew to be flying on this new fleet and 2075 by end of year two (remember EF has only 2314 crew and LGW single fleet, 1189.
Long-term this will lead to the total restructuring of cabin crew costs.
Proposed changes to existing crews terms and conditions (“restrictive practices”) from this list:
1) Remove double night on LAX, SFO, PHX, MEX.
2) Reduce 777 crew compliment by 1 on long-range 4 class.
3) MBT to be a maximum of 4 local nights irrespective trip.
4) Reduce annual leave for all crew to 34 days from 36.
5) Completely flexible rosters, no fixed trips.
6) One main crew member removed from 777- 3 class.
* Details of item to be confirmed
7) Annual increment freeze for one year for all crew.
8) Remove one main crew from worldwide destinations that at present receive the extra crew member as agreed post September 11th 2001. For the summer they are CCU- DAC- DEN -CPT (042) MAA- MEX- MIA- MRU- PEK
9) Remove the early report day allowing report times prior to 0800.
10) Bidding only on EF, ending the 6-3 and 5-2 and job share work patterns.
11) Removal of 767 CSD on EF.
12) All Crew grades to be planned/rostered to work up or down with no extra payment or restriction.
13) Remove one main crew member from 777 long-range top up.
* Details of Item To be confirmed
14) Extension on Eurofleet working day from 12.30 hours to 15.00.
15) Allow earlier report/start and later debrief/finish times.
16) Replace all 24hr stand-by with 12 hour.
17) One purser to be removed from all 747 and 777.
18) Remove EF Club top-up crewing level agreement.
19) No meal allowances to be triggered whilst in flight.
20) Reduction of Box-One payments by 50%
21) Back-To-Back payments to be reduced by 50%.
22) All destination payments to be permanently removed. For summer these will be paid on MIA- LAD -DEN -DAR -SEA YVR- EBB- IAH- DFW -YYC
23) Pay actual ETP rather than planned.
24) Remove STR payments and introduce fixed links also with no payment - EF.
25) Replace QRS with airport standby.
26) Reduce report and debrief times i.e., shorten duty day timings.
27) Removal of telephone allowance.
28) Change definition of EF night duty.
29) Exchange 2 pursers from all 767, 747, 777 to junior crew positions (switching roles).
30) No CSD on 757 EF.
31) Switch one purser at LGW for main crew member.
These are potentially in addition to a two-year pay freeze. Now we have been able to share this list, you will see first-hand the scale of the challenge we face, there are no easy options available. This will require ongoing and extensive consultation between us, as your representatives and you, as our members. This is something you need to become involved in, right now and take an active interest, it will affect every single one of us, it’s not even a question of supporting your union, it’s a question of being involved in some really hard and far reaching decisions that are not going to go away.
BASSA and Amicus sections of UNITE will continue to work closely together to do our best to protect your future, we will not kid you that this is going to be an easy task but please be assured that we will be doing our very best for you.We have now told BA that we will not meet next week as we wanted to start the consultation process with you over the next several days. Talks will however reconvene on the 30th and then obviously we have our branch meeting at Kempton Park on the 6th April when a full and frank debate will no doubt be forthcoming.
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Heres a link to it .... GI - Feb09 - Cost Saving Talks
What sticks in my throat is they want to even cut costs from LGW!
Back to the discussion about what market rate is!
What sticks in my throat is they want to even cut costs from LGW!
Back to the discussion about what market rate is!
Have just read the Amicus newsflash and it states that:
How do they get away with peddling such nonsense? 
Cuts per pilot are likely to be in the order of double those being faced by crew.
For example, the Pilots’ budget is £445 million and they face no cuts.
Cuts per pilot are likely to be in the order of double those being faced by crew.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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£39m* / 3300 pilots = approx £11800 per pilot over the two year period of savings.
... but it's ok, BASSA. We're all paid more than the cabin crew and none of us have mortgages or anything.
*£13m in Year 1, £26m in Year 2.
... but it's ok, BASSA. We're all paid more than the cabin crew and none of us have mortgages or anything.
*£13m in Year 1, £26m in Year 2.
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yeah well living on ba cabin crew wages is hard enough!! not all us single ones can afford to have our own mortgages down south... so the thought of cutting our wage is a scarey one!
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Any pay cut is a nightmare for anyone. Losing a job is even worse.
This has nothing to do with the 'Pilots get paid more than we do so they should have a bigger cut'. Although, obviously Amicus and BASSA will spin it that way.
This has everything to do with productivity, pure and simple. Pilots had their wages benchmarked a fair few years ago. The system of lateness credit, block payments, lunch payments etc. etc. etc. was done away with for a simpler hourly rate. Pilot pay is a known, quantifiable amount. Cabin crew pay is not.
Long Haul are running up against the 900 flying hours per year and Short Haul are running out of hours in the cockpit. Look at a 'typical' three sector day in SH and you can often spend between 10-11 1/2 hours in the cockpit for 6 hours of flying. There is little left to give on the flight ops side.
Lets look then at the cabin crew side? Can cabin crew, honestly, say they are fully productive as a usable manpower (sorry Harriet Harperson) asset? 2-3 hours in the CRC on a turn round? Lateness credit? Lunch payments? Block Payments? CAT turnarounds? etc. etc. etc.
There is an awful lot to give in IFS and the company are, quite rightly, looking to rationalise this somewhat random structure and reduce it to an hourly rate. To be honest the ones who have the most to lose are those who benefit the most from the cherry picked long haul routes. The LH CSD's who have the loudest voice in BASSA. The ones who get shafted are the junior members and the new joiners.
Lets be under no illusion, the current trading climate is the worst seen since modern aviation travel started. The killer factor is that no one knows how long it will continue thus how long any company can survive. Kingfisher are having aircraft re-possessed and having to give up their new aircraft orders. Ryanair pilots and crew are taking (have been given?) a 10% pay cut. Lufthansa are reducing working hours thus pay. Singapore Airlines are sacking crews. The news goes on and on and on.
If BA don't take decisive action PDQ then we may not be around for the recovery. The investors will have had enough. BA's investment rating is back to junk, that means investment is harder to find, as is credit and the cost of loans goes up. A strike over outdated, overpaid and inefficient working practices in this current climate could well be the straw that breaks the camels back. This is a game of corporate Russian roulette with all the major players waiting to see who blows their brains out first so they can pick up the revenue and passengers from the aftermath. Sadly the closed shop, protectionist American system will see their carriers plying the skies for years to come propped up with tax payers money.
Don't cut your nose off to spite your face.
This has nothing to do with the 'Pilots get paid more than we do so they should have a bigger cut'. Although, obviously Amicus and BASSA will spin it that way.
This has everything to do with productivity, pure and simple. Pilots had their wages benchmarked a fair few years ago. The system of lateness credit, block payments, lunch payments etc. etc. etc. was done away with for a simpler hourly rate. Pilot pay is a known, quantifiable amount. Cabin crew pay is not.
Long Haul are running up against the 900 flying hours per year and Short Haul are running out of hours in the cockpit. Look at a 'typical' three sector day in SH and you can often spend between 10-11 1/2 hours in the cockpit for 6 hours of flying. There is little left to give on the flight ops side.
Lets look then at the cabin crew side? Can cabin crew, honestly, say they are fully productive as a usable manpower (sorry Harriet Harperson) asset? 2-3 hours in the CRC on a turn round? Lateness credit? Lunch payments? Block Payments? CAT turnarounds? etc. etc. etc.
There is an awful lot to give in IFS and the company are, quite rightly, looking to rationalise this somewhat random structure and reduce it to an hourly rate. To be honest the ones who have the most to lose are those who benefit the most from the cherry picked long haul routes. The LH CSD's who have the loudest voice in BASSA. The ones who get shafted are the junior members and the new joiners.
Lets be under no illusion, the current trading climate is the worst seen since modern aviation travel started. The killer factor is that no one knows how long it will continue thus how long any company can survive. Kingfisher are having aircraft re-possessed and having to give up their new aircraft orders. Ryanair pilots and crew are taking (have been given?) a 10% pay cut. Lufthansa are reducing working hours thus pay. Singapore Airlines are sacking crews. The news goes on and on and on.
If BA don't take decisive action PDQ then we may not be around for the recovery. The investors will have had enough. BA's investment rating is back to junk, that means investment is harder to find, as is credit and the cost of loans goes up. A strike over outdated, overpaid and inefficient working practices in this current climate could well be the straw that breaks the camels back. This is a game of corporate Russian roulette with all the major players waiting to see who blows their brains out first so they can pick up the revenue and passengers from the aftermath. Sadly the closed shop, protectionist American system will see their carriers plying the skies for years to come propped up with tax payers money.
Don't cut your nose off to spite your face.
Here we go, including the usual BASSA b*****ks and posturing about pilots:
**********************************************
TALKS UPDATE 19TH MARCH
Mar 19th, 2009 by admin
Negotiations on cost-cutting have today resumed.
For the last week it has probably appeared to have all gone away, or at least we could have hoped it had......It categorically has not.
A joint meeting of all the Unions from across the airline that are involved in cost cutting measures was held on Tuesday and information on each of their targeted savings was shared. Last week British Airways had declined to share this information with us. It is apparent that cost saving targets are not equal but vary widely across the airline. For example, the Pilots' budget is £445 million and they face no cuts. Their only input is to not incur further costs over the next two years. Their projected increase is £13 million and this will be their contribution. The vast majority of other areas will achieve savings by quite a severe headcount reduction but not by changes to terms and conditions ("restrictive practices"; as Willie Walsh prefers to call them).
British Airways has now completed their expectations of the cost cuts for cabin crew. To remind you, the headline facts are again recapped below:
BA states that IFCE costs are £567.9 million per year. Most of that cost is salaries (98.9%).
BA wants to cut this by £82 million (14%) over the next two years, commencing April 1st 2009. This equates to approx £6,000 per person directly from earnings and/or costs. They propose this to be achieved by two separate but linked phases. The "new fleet" would still only save £35 million in its first two years, the remaining £47 million would need to come from existing agreements for current crew i.e. you.
Until now we have been unable to publish this "list" to you due to a confidentiality commitment specified to us when it was received. Our confidentiality commitment regarding this has ended and we have received legal clearance to reveal details to you. The following is a list of proposed and possible cost saving measures to reach the specified target, exactly as they were given to us.
What is acceptable or otherwise, is of course the subject of ongoing negotiation but from the list below you will be able to see these are substantial and major issues that will need to be faced. They affect all current crew, no matter which base or agreement you currently operate. It is not just a case of "Oh there's a new fleet coming but it won't affect me"; - it will.
Proposals for a New Fleet at LHR: Not for current crew unless joining the fleet
A low-cost fleet based on a low cost model (Almost identical to the document leaked by BASSA at Christmas).
BA aims to achieve this in the next 2 years. Approaching 1000 crew have already been trained and placed in a holding pool.
It will have over 2000 plus crew operating within two years
Market rate paid Cabin Crew in line with virgin plus 10%.
Fleet will consist of mixed flying on Airbus, 777, 747 aircraft.
Crew will consist of 3 new grades, Main Crew, Supervisor and Lead Supervisor. Not CSD, Purser and main crew and NOT to current levels.
No ETP, long-range, back-to-back or destination Payments or other variable shorthaul payments etc.
A fixed hourly rate.
**********************************************
TALKS UPDATE 19TH MARCH
Mar 19th, 2009 by admin
Negotiations on cost-cutting have today resumed.
For the last week it has probably appeared to have all gone away, or at least we could have hoped it had......It categorically has not.
A joint meeting of all the Unions from across the airline that are involved in cost cutting measures was held on Tuesday and information on each of their targeted savings was shared. Last week British Airways had declined to share this information with us. It is apparent that cost saving targets are not equal but vary widely across the airline. For example, the Pilots' budget is £445 million and they face no cuts. Their only input is to not incur further costs over the next two years. Their projected increase is £13 million and this will be their contribution. The vast majority of other areas will achieve savings by quite a severe headcount reduction but not by changes to terms and conditions ("restrictive practices"; as Willie Walsh prefers to call them).
British Airways has now completed their expectations of the cost cuts for cabin crew. To remind you, the headline facts are again recapped below:
BA states that IFCE costs are £567.9 million per year. Most of that cost is salaries (98.9%).
BA wants to cut this by £82 million (14%) over the next two years, commencing April 1st 2009. This equates to approx £6,000 per person directly from earnings and/or costs. They propose this to be achieved by two separate but linked phases. The "new fleet" would still only save £35 million in its first two years, the remaining £47 million would need to come from existing agreements for current crew i.e. you.
Until now we have been unable to publish this "list" to you due to a confidentiality commitment specified to us when it was received. Our confidentiality commitment regarding this has ended and we have received legal clearance to reveal details to you. The following is a list of proposed and possible cost saving measures to reach the specified target, exactly as they were given to us.
What is acceptable or otherwise, is of course the subject of ongoing negotiation but from the list below you will be able to see these are substantial and major issues that will need to be faced. They affect all current crew, no matter which base or agreement you currently operate. It is not just a case of "Oh there's a new fleet coming but it won't affect me"; - it will.
Proposals for a New Fleet at LHR: Not for current crew unless joining the fleet
A low-cost fleet based on a low cost model (Almost identical to the document leaked by BASSA at Christmas).
BA aims to achieve this in the next 2 years. Approaching 1000 crew have already been trained and placed in a holding pool.
It will have over 2000 plus crew operating within two years
Market rate paid Cabin Crew in line with virgin plus 10%.
Fleet will consist of mixed flying on Airbus, 777, 747 aircraft.
Crew will consist of 3 new grades, Main Crew, Supervisor and Lead Supervisor. Not CSD, Purser and main crew and NOT to current levels.
No ETP, long-range, back-to-back or destination Payments or other variable shorthaul payments etc.
A fixed hourly rate.
Last edited by wiggy; 20th Mar 2009 at 16:51.