Max pax A321 - JAA rules
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Max pax A321 - JAA rules
Assume your 321 has 212 normal pax seats, 2 free jumpseats (cockpit excluded, off limits anyhow). Seat belt extensions required for infants, 15 sets on board. Oxy masks 4+4 each row. How many passangers can you legally take?
Variant B, with seats 220.
Can you help?
Thanks,
FD (the un-real)
Variant B, with seats 220.
Can you help?
Thanks,
FD (the un-real)
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Thread Starter
Because it is not crystal clear on the subject, sweetheart. That includes AFM, L%B Manual, OM-A, FCOM, CCOM, and various training programmes. In fact, I may be even trying to polish one of them.
I "heard" there's max limitation and tried to get hands on it, but PPRuNe friends only had an FAA one. http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=268646 If the total limit was 220 as I am led to believe, this would mean no jumpseating on full 220Y aircraft, or no infants. The only thing to be found in my books is 4x flotation device to accomodate up to 55 pax, however this is theoretical number because none of 7 required crewmembers gets seat, and even so, if operating over terra firma, can you seat more? Or not?
FD
I "heard" there's max limitation and tried to get hands on it, but PPRuNe friends only had an FAA one. http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=268646 If the total limit was 220 as I am led to believe, this would mean no jumpseating on full 220Y aircraft, or no infants. The only thing to be found in my books is 4x flotation device to accomodate up to 55 pax, however this is theoretical number because none of 7 required crewmembers gets seat, and even so, if operating over terra firma, can you seat more? Or not?
FD
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with 212 seats you would have to have the min of 5 crew which means that u could take up to 250 pax ( 50 seats per cabin crew ) so with you jump seats you could take 214
Bear Behind
FD, I hope I'm answering the "right" question but the limit is 220 passengers no matter what the passengers are. The A321 is limited by its emergency exit configuration and the authorities, both EASA (ex-JAA) and FAA both reflect the same 220 pax limit.
p-k-b
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Flightdetent...why do you need some one to tell you the answer...when you seem to have an answer to whatever they say.
Eg. lgw30 said they thought their total max was 214
Why did you then post a thread, then saying to add on 15 infants..and asking what the answer was.
Leads me to believe that either you cant add up...or you just messing around!!!
Eg. lgw30 said they thought their total max was 214
Why did you then post a thread, then saying to add on 15 infants..and asking what the answer was.
Leads me to believe that either you cant add up...or you just messing around!!!
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FlightDetent...
You have actually asked a very good question. While I cannot speak to the JAA/EASA operational requirements specifically, I do have some information that you may find useful.
As you have noted, the maximum passenger load is specified in the Type Certificate and has been established as:
EASA TCDS A.064 - A318/319/320/321
The question that needs to be answered is whether an in-lap child is considered as a "passenger" or not. During aircraft certification, simulated lap children are carried by passenger participants and are in addition to the number of passenger seats for which the manufacturer is seeking certification.
Here in Canada, we have an advisory circular that provides guidance to operators in establishing their procedures when considering the carriage of infants. The established policy that I believe relates to your question is:
Advisory Circular 0116 - Infant Passenger Count
I am not certain whether JAA/EASA has similar guidance published or not.
You have actually asked a very good question. While I cannot speak to the JAA/EASA operational requirements specifically, I do have some information that you may find useful.
As you have noted, the maximum passenger load is specified in the Type Certificate and has been established as:
2.3.6. Maximum number of passengers - 220.
The question that needs to be answered is whether an in-lap child is considered as a "passenger" or not. During aircraft certification, simulated lap children are carried by passenger participants and are in addition to the number of passenger seats for which the manufacturer is seeking certification.
Here in Canada, we have an advisory circular that provides guidance to operators in establishing their procedures when considering the carriage of infants. The established policy that I believe relates to your question is:
An infant secured in a lap-held position by a parent or guardian passenger is not counted as a passenger for purposes of determining the minimum number of flight attendants required on board an aircraft, and the maximum number of occupants authorized to be on board an aircraft. However, the infant is counted as a passenger for purposes of applying regulatory requirements such as those pertaining to oxygen, life preservers and survival equipment.
I am not certain whether JAA/EASA has similar guidance published or not.
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I do not know wheather 212 + 15 equals 235 or 220. Sorry (I mean it!) for coming in so thick, or playing stupid, it really is on purpouse. I need you to answer as I couldn't get it myself.
p-k-b: Thank you! That is exactly what I am looking for. I tried to find a reference, to no avail. If there were max limit (220) where does it come from in EASA rules
?
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Flight Detent,
in my company whenever you say "passenger", it is someone who holds a ticket (paying or free). This definition doesn't apply to crew. So, in our manuals, for each A/C type you have a chart with the max pax figures (same that appears on the Certificate) AND the crew figures. My understanding is that the Crew is not intended in the max pax numbers in the Certificate.
in my company whenever you say "passenger", it is someone who holds a ticket (paying or free). This definition doesn't apply to crew. So, in our manuals, for each A/C type you have a chart with the max pax figures (same that appears on the Certificate) AND the crew figures. My understanding is that the Crew is not intended in the max pax numbers in the Certificate.
Bear Behind
FD - it comes from a set of rules established many many years ago by the authorities, now superseded by EASA. There is an allocated number of passengers per door type (for example, a type III overwing is allocated 35 passengers - I don't have the figures to hand for a Type I but could probably look them up).
Then the authorities dictate that, in an emergency, only half the exits could be in use. So, for, let's say an A319 which has 1 x type III on each side, the max is still 35 pax allocated to those type IIIs. An A320 has 2 x type III on each side, so it has 70 pax allocated to those 2 exits.
So the A321 is limited by its door configuration in the same way as most other jetliners, so that it meets the emergency evacuation requirements. The A321 Standard Specification from Airbus states that all doors on the A321 are Type I, but if I remember correctly the doors immediately forward and aft of the wing are a slightly different dimension to the main pax doors at the very front and very aft, so probably have slightly different limits. In any case, when the A321 was certificated and the emergency evac test was done, only 220 pax were on board so this figure may never be exceeded.
Flyblue is correct in her statement that crew of any kind don't count, but ALL pax do. That is the certification requirement.
Am I helping or making it worse?!
p-k-b
Then the authorities dictate that, in an emergency, only half the exits could be in use. So, for, let's say an A319 which has 1 x type III on each side, the max is still 35 pax allocated to those type IIIs. An A320 has 2 x type III on each side, so it has 70 pax allocated to those 2 exits.
So the A321 is limited by its door configuration in the same way as most other jetliners, so that it meets the emergency evacuation requirements. The A321 Standard Specification from Airbus states that all doors on the A321 are Type I, but if I remember correctly the doors immediately forward and aft of the wing are a slightly different dimension to the main pax doors at the very front and very aft, so probably have slightly different limits. In any case, when the A321 was certificated and the emergency evac test was done, only 220 pax were on board so this figure may never be exceeded.
Flyblue is correct in her statement that crew of any kind don't count, but ALL pax do. That is the certification requirement.
Am I helping or making it worse?!
p-k-b
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Thread Starter
CD's post appeared while I was typing my last reply (without having seen it), so the sequence now looks bit odd.
This is it, until now I only was able to suggest 220 was the limit. It is nowhere in the company manuals, or more specifically those available to crew with some effort and that includes the operational specification issued by CAA.
I quote from the Canadian guidance, it reads common sense:
An infant secured in a lap-held position by a parent or guardian passenger is not counted as a passenger for purposes of determining the minimum number of flight attendants required on board an aircraft, and the maximum number of occupants authorized to be on board an aircraft. However, the infant is counted as a passenger for purposes of applying regulatory requirements such as those pertaining to oxygen, life preservers and survival equipment.
In line with Flyblue's straighforward logic "no ticket > no seat > no passenger", the first part clearly states that I can take 220 adults + any number of infants secured in-lap with no seat requirement.
The second part is clear as well. Oxy masks - no problem. Infant seatbelt extension - 15 sets. Here comes the tricky part: "aircraft is equipped with 4 slide-rafts seating up to 55 passangers" It is a quote, but double-translated. If we consider slide-rafts a survival equipment the maximum number of infants ontop of 220 adults becomes 0.
Now turning to mere technicalities, it is possible to argue that in case of not operating over water, the raft function is not part of survival eqipment and total head-count seen on Loadsheet/PIL can go up to 235 with 15 lap-secured infants onboard.
It is also possible to argue that if an infant does not occupy a seat and hence is not accounted for in certain calculations in cabin, the same conclusion may be drawn for seating it/them on a slide raft. Lap held onboard, lap held overboard. So again 220 + 15 becomes 235. But unlike the guidance above, this is no more than a speculation.
Many thanks for the numbers, great help, 220 filled seats - no jumpseating. But as far as the infant principle, I am no wiser.
FD
(the un-real)
As you have noted, the maximum passenger load is specified in the Type Certificate and has been established as:
EASA TCDS A.064 - A318/319/320/321
EASA TCDS A.064 - A318/319/320/321
I quote from the Canadian guidance, it reads common sense:
An infant secured in a lap-held position by a parent or guardian passenger is not counted as a passenger for purposes of determining the minimum number of flight attendants required on board an aircraft, and the maximum number of occupants authorized to be on board an aircraft. However, the infant is counted as a passenger for purposes of applying regulatory requirements such as those pertaining to oxygen, life preservers and survival equipment.
In line with Flyblue's straighforward logic "no ticket > no seat > no passenger", the first part clearly states that I can take 220 adults + any number of infants secured in-lap with no seat requirement.
The second part is clear as well. Oxy masks - no problem. Infant seatbelt extension - 15 sets. Here comes the tricky part: "aircraft is equipped with 4 slide-rafts seating up to 55 passangers" It is a quote, but double-translated. If we consider slide-rafts a survival equipment the maximum number of infants ontop of 220 adults becomes 0.
Now turning to mere technicalities, it is possible to argue that in case of not operating over water, the raft function is not part of survival eqipment and total head-count seen on Loadsheet/PIL can go up to 235 with 15 lap-secured infants onboard.
It is also possible to argue that if an infant does not occupy a seat and hence is not accounted for in certain calculations in cabin, the same conclusion may be drawn for seating it/them on a slide raft. Lap held onboard, lap held overboard. So again 220 + 15 becomes 235. But unlike the guidance above, this is no more than a speculation.
Many thanks for the numbers, great help, 220 filled seats - no jumpseating. But as far as the infant principle, I am no wiser.
FD
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Flyblue is correct in her statement that crew of any kind don't count, but ALL pax do. That is the certification requirement.
The certification requirement only takes into consideration the occupants of the seats, not any infants held in passenger laps. This is why, as I indicated above, a number of simulated lap children are carried by passenger participants and are in addition to the number of passenger seats for which the manufacturer is seeking certification. Basically, the total number of passengers indicated on the aircraft type certificate is not the absolute number of souls on board as lap children are not considered during the certification process:
CS-25
Appendix J
The following test criteria and procedures must be used for showing compliance with CS 25.803:
(h) A representative passenger load of persons in normal health must be used as follows:
(1) At least 40% of the passenger load must be females.
(2) At least 35% of the passenger load must be over 50 years of age.
(3) At least 15% of the passenger load must be female and over 50 years of age.
(4) Three life-size dolls, not included as part of the total passenger load, must be carried by passengers to simulate live infants 2 years old or younger.
(5) Crew members, mechanics, and training personnel who maintain or operate the aeroplane in the normal course of their duties, may not be used as passengers.
Appendix J
The following test criteria and procedures must be used for showing compliance with CS 25.803:
(h) A representative passenger load of persons in normal health must be used as follows:
(1) At least 40% of the passenger load must be females.
(2) At least 35% of the passenger load must be over 50 years of age.
(3) At least 15% of the passenger load must be female and over 50 years of age.
(4) Three life-size dolls, not included as part of the total passenger load, must be carried by passengers to simulate live infants 2 years old or younger.
(5) Crew members, mechanics, and training personnel who maintain or operate the aeroplane in the normal course of their duties, may not be used as passengers.
These design rules and requirements are harmonized on an international basis and reflect FAR 25, CAR 525, the former JAR-25, etc., for the various CAA's.
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First of all I must change my prooning habits, again I hadn't seen p-k-b addition before uploading my last post.
Oh you help a lot!
1) The "Canadian" way (unless also specified by EASA or local authority which I understand would be be news to you) is not applicable. Infants with no tickets are neither crew nor thin air but become passangers instead.
2) First I heard about the 220 max, the term "emergency exit limit" was used. I have clicked many search buttons on various places in various applications, no results. The background explanation you provided brings this back into equation. I also remember Easyjet to increase overwing TYPE III to 4 to accomodate more seats on their A319s.
Front and aft door (both passanger and service) are TYPE I 73"x32". Door 2L, the one in front of port wingroot is also TYPE I 73"x32". The three remaining doors (2R, 3L, 3R) are TYPE I 60"x30".
FD.
1) The "Canadian" way (unless also specified by EASA or local authority which I understand would be be news to you) is not applicable. Infants with no tickets are neither crew nor thin air but become passangers instead.
2) First I heard about the 220 max, the term "emergency exit limit" was used. I have clicked many search buttons on various places in various applications, no results. The background explanation you provided brings this back into equation. I also remember Easyjet to increase overwing TYPE III to 4 to accomodate more seats on their A319s.
Front and aft door (both passanger and service) are TYPE I 73"x32". Door 2L, the one in front of port wingroot is also TYPE I 73"x32". The three remaining doors (2R, 3L, 3R) are TYPE I 60"x30".
FD.
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CD: So the "Canadian way" is applicable. Hmm.
Would the three dolls not considered passangers represent three infants or any number of infants?
It is getting clearer every second
Would the three dolls not considered passangers represent three infants or any number of infants?
It is getting clearer every second
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Hi FD...
The Canadian guidance that I provided earlier is operational in nature. That is, it is only applicable to the interpretation of the operating regulations here in Canada. Your local CAA may or may not have provided similar guidance or interpretation...
The certification requirements that I have mentioned are harmonized on an international basis and are applicable throughout most of the world. Therefore, the testing done in accordance with 25.803 - Emergency Evacuation is the same for Airbus, Bombardier, Boeing, Embraer, etc. They all build their aircraft and test them to the same standards so that they can be sold and delivered worldwide.
Does the inclusion of three simulated infants reflect any number of infants? I don't have a good answer for that one... The test criteria was established quite a while ago, when aircraft were obviously smaller. If I recall correctly, I think that when Airbus conducted the evacuation demonstration for the A380 they used more than the three mandated. So basically, I would suggest that the limiting factor on the number of infants would be the safety and emergency equipment available.
All that being said, your company should have established and published this minimum acceptable number based upon the configuration and equipment available on each of your aircraft types. Some companies may not accept more than "220" passengers, including lap-held infants. Others, may accept 15 lap-held infants in addition to the 220 passengers as they have sufficient emergency equipment to accommodate them.
How this impacts directly to the occupancy of the rafts, I'm not entirely certain. They are designed to accommodate an overload but I don't immediately recall how infants are calculated in the numbers. I'll have to see if I can dig that up.
The other question, that panda-k-bear responded to regarding the exit types, evacuation flow rates and configuration, can be found at the following link to the EASA certification requirements:
Certification Specifications for Large Aeroplanes CS-25
If you search down for 25.807 - Emergency Exits you will find the definitions and descriptions for each type of exit.
The Canadian guidance that I provided earlier is operational in nature. That is, it is only applicable to the interpretation of the operating regulations here in Canada. Your local CAA may or may not have provided similar guidance or interpretation...
The certification requirements that I have mentioned are harmonized on an international basis and are applicable throughout most of the world. Therefore, the testing done in accordance with 25.803 - Emergency Evacuation is the same for Airbus, Bombardier, Boeing, Embraer, etc. They all build their aircraft and test them to the same standards so that they can be sold and delivered worldwide.
Does the inclusion of three simulated infants reflect any number of infants? I don't have a good answer for that one... The test criteria was established quite a while ago, when aircraft were obviously smaller. If I recall correctly, I think that when Airbus conducted the evacuation demonstration for the A380 they used more than the three mandated. So basically, I would suggest that the limiting factor on the number of infants would be the safety and emergency equipment available.
All that being said, your company should have established and published this minimum acceptable number based upon the configuration and equipment available on each of your aircraft types. Some companies may not accept more than "220" passengers, including lap-held infants. Others, may accept 15 lap-held infants in addition to the 220 passengers as they have sufficient emergency equipment to accommodate them.
How this impacts directly to the occupancy of the rafts, I'm not entirely certain. They are designed to accommodate an overload but I don't immediately recall how infants are calculated in the numbers. I'll have to see if I can dig that up.
The other question, that panda-k-bear responded to regarding the exit types, evacuation flow rates and configuration, can be found at the following link to the EASA certification requirements:
Certification Specifications for Large Aeroplanes CS-25
If you search down for 25.807 - Emergency Exits you will find the definitions and descriptions for each type of exit.
