BA IR issues
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A Question
I'm one of the "stripey sort" previously mentioned - and thought I'd pose a question for those of you who are going to strike.
I'll be operating a trip which returns on the first day of the strike. How do CC feel about operating this trip and what does BASSA advise.
Will you simply not report for the duty as the return date infringes the first stike date ( Leaves Monday 29th but arrives Tuesday 30th ).
Will you opt to remain down-route and perhaps operate/position home a few days later.
Will you operate both sectors without a thought as you don't feel you're infringing the strike by working inbound and not outbound.
Why do I pose this question ? Because in these somewhat divisive times it won't be a bed of roses for those of us at work with you - when it comes to crew relations in particular. It might be helpfull to know not only your thoughts/feelings - but also are there any union rules regarding this that you are aware of & we are not.
Forwarned is forearmed.
I'll be operating a trip which returns on the first day of the strike. How do CC feel about operating this trip and what does BASSA advise.
Will you simply not report for the duty as the return date infringes the first stike date ( Leaves Monday 29th but arrives Tuesday 30th ).
Will you opt to remain down-route and perhaps operate/position home a few days later.
Will you operate both sectors without a thought as you don't feel you're infringing the strike by working inbound and not outbound.
Why do I pose this question ? Because in these somewhat divisive times it won't be a bed of roses for those of us at work with you - when it comes to crew relations in particular. It might be helpfull to know not only your thoughts/feelings - but also are there any union rules regarding this that you are aware of & we are not.
Forwarned is forearmed.
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Zimbo5
It only affects crew who are reporting for duty ex LHR/LGW on the days of the strikes. If you are flying back on Tues 30th, you are expected to work - thats both BA and Bassa's view. Hope that helps.
It only affects crew who are reporting for duty ex LHR/LGW on the days of the strikes. If you are flying back on Tues 30th, you are expected to work - thats both BA and Bassa's view. Hope that helps.
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Only crew belonging to BASSA and reporting for a duty ex LHR/LGW on either the 30th or 31st of January are legally able to strike.
If you are downroute on 29th/30th/31st you are expected by both BA and BASSA to operate home if required.
If you are downroute on 29th/30th/31st you are expected by both BA and BASSA to operate home if required.
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Not really my business but if I can be allowed to make a comment it might be useful for some of you to know.
Just a comment from one who has been involved in a few industrial disputes from both sides.
Sacking staff is not the preferred option of most management. It escalates the dispute and alienates the management in the eyes of the public.
If a dispute continues to the point of bringing in temporary labour (The management have every right to do this), the situation takes a turn for the worse as far as the strikers are concerned.
Mostly striking staff are informed upon returning that due to losses during the strike action their jobs are no longer available, in other words they are to be made redundant. This effectively terminates legally any existing contract of employment. By law you must be told this prior to actually being made redundant (normally about 2 weeks notice but can vary greatly).
Prior to actually issuing redundancy notices staff are then offered alternative employment with the same company, but the terms and conditions of the new contract reflect what the management wanted in the first place. The job can even be the same but the job description must be different (a simple rewording of your job description and perfectly legal).
Employees then face either signing the new contract and agreeing to abide by the new terms and conditions, or refusing to sign and accepting the redundancy.
Here is the nasty bit. Because you have refused to accept an alternative offer of employment from the same employer you are said to be resigning yourself, in that case the company has no legal obligation to pay you any compensation and you are not even entitled to redundancy pay. You must work your normal notice period as if you were resigning normally.
Many industrial disputes large and small end up going down this road and almost all management know its a card they hold up their sleeve.
That is the reason most unions will not strike for more than a day at a time, it prevents the company installing temporary staff.
I wish you all luck in your dispute, but I also cannot think of one dispute that has resulted in the unions actually winning in the end after extended strike action. the days of powerful unions are long gone.
Just listen to the Miners, Wapping Print workers, Rover. all have gone down this road and the management eventually pulled this card from their sleeve.
I hope you don't mind me commenting and I hope the information above is of some use.
Just a comment from one who has been involved in a few industrial disputes from both sides.
Sacking staff is not the preferred option of most management. It escalates the dispute and alienates the management in the eyes of the public.
If a dispute continues to the point of bringing in temporary labour (The management have every right to do this), the situation takes a turn for the worse as far as the strikers are concerned.
Mostly striking staff are informed upon returning that due to losses during the strike action their jobs are no longer available, in other words they are to be made redundant. This effectively terminates legally any existing contract of employment. By law you must be told this prior to actually being made redundant (normally about 2 weeks notice but can vary greatly).
Prior to actually issuing redundancy notices staff are then offered alternative employment with the same company, but the terms and conditions of the new contract reflect what the management wanted in the first place. The job can even be the same but the job description must be different (a simple rewording of your job description and perfectly legal).
Employees then face either signing the new contract and agreeing to abide by the new terms and conditions, or refusing to sign and accepting the redundancy.
Here is the nasty bit. Because you have refused to accept an alternative offer of employment from the same employer you are said to be resigning yourself, in that case the company has no legal obligation to pay you any compensation and you are not even entitled to redundancy pay. You must work your normal notice period as if you were resigning normally.
Many industrial disputes large and small end up going down this road and almost all management know its a card they hold up their sleeve.
That is the reason most unions will not strike for more than a day at a time, it prevents the company installing temporary staff.
I wish you all luck in your dispute, but I also cannot think of one dispute that has resulted in the unions actually winning in the end after extended strike action. the days of powerful unions are long gone.
Just listen to the Miners, Wapping Print workers, Rover. all have gone down this road and the management eventually pulled this card from their sleeve.
I hope you don't mind me commenting and I hope the information above is of some use.
Thanks
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Financial Times:
British Airways’ troubles
Published: January 25 2007 13:25 | Last updated: January 25 2007 13:25
The challenge of dragging its workforce into the 21st century is not one faced by British Airways alone. All the European flag carriers are grappling with the same Herculean task. Planned industrial action by BA’s cabin crew staff, though, appears to be a big step backwards.
The proposed strikes would be the first official action for a decade, and their financial impact could be significant. BA earns an estimated £20m a day in traffic revenues. Potentially forfeiting at least this for each strike-day will make it more difficult for Willie Walsh, chief executive, to meet his elusive 10 per cent operating margin target.
Rather surprisingly, though, Mr Walsh has some reasons to feel encouraged. The dispute does not seem to centre around the two main problems he faces – reducing the pension deficit, and changing working practices before the imminent move to London Heathrow’s Terminal 5. Instead, BA’s cabin crew, which represents nearly a third of its 44,000 workforce, seems most upset about attempts to reduce sick leave to BA’s target of nine days a year. This is still well above the UK average of seven, and is but one indication of how far BA still has to go towards competitive industry norms. After five years of restructuring, its average costs per employee remain among the highest in the industry globally, and 25 per cent above those of low-cost competitors Ryanair and Easyjet.
Cabin crew staff’s focus on a relatively minor issue, though, shows that Mr Walsh is making some progress. Two-thirds of BA’s workforce have apparently agreed to the changes in working practice necessary to make the move to T5 a success. This is immensely positive for the long term. And shareholders’ ability to weather shocks has often been tested. BA’s shares have risen 64 per cent over the last 12 months. But, at about 12 times 2007 consensus earnings, they are bang on their long-term average valuation. An extended strike, though, would be a severe test of investors’ tolerance.
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2007
British Airways’ troubles
Published: January 25 2007 13:25 | Last updated: January 25 2007 13:25
The challenge of dragging its workforce into the 21st century is not one faced by British Airways alone. All the European flag carriers are grappling with the same Herculean task. Planned industrial action by BA’s cabin crew staff, though, appears to be a big step backwards.
The proposed strikes would be the first official action for a decade, and their financial impact could be significant. BA earns an estimated £20m a day in traffic revenues. Potentially forfeiting at least this for each strike-day will make it more difficult for Willie Walsh, chief executive, to meet his elusive 10 per cent operating margin target.
Rather surprisingly, though, Mr Walsh has some reasons to feel encouraged. The dispute does not seem to centre around the two main problems he faces – reducing the pension deficit, and changing working practices before the imminent move to London Heathrow’s Terminal 5. Instead, BA’s cabin crew, which represents nearly a third of its 44,000 workforce, seems most upset about attempts to reduce sick leave to BA’s target of nine days a year. This is still well above the UK average of seven, and is but one indication of how far BA still has to go towards competitive industry norms. After five years of restructuring, its average costs per employee remain among the highest in the industry globally, and 25 per cent above those of low-cost competitors Ryanair and Easyjet.
Cabin crew staff’s focus on a relatively minor issue, though, shows that Mr Walsh is making some progress. Two-thirds of BA’s workforce have apparently agreed to the changes in working practice necessary to make the move to T5 a success. This is immensely positive for the long term. And shareholders’ ability to weather shocks has often been tested. BA’s shares have risen 64 per cent over the last 12 months. But, at about 12 times 2007 consensus earnings, they are bang on their long-term average valuation. An extended strike, though, would be a severe test of investors’ tolerance.
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2007
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Madness
I can not believe most of what I have read about the Strike, does,nt any-body realise that you are playing into managments hands & afew days of this behaviour will result in a lot of loss making services being cancelled for good, no service , no cabin crew.
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It's a risk most seem prepared to take.
I'm not sure where BA stands and how long they can go before they have the possible chance of folding, but one would assume that it is a calculated risk these people have taken. People don't strike for no good reason. A strike is usually the last resort when communication has broken down.
Blackace - I have no prior knowledge or experiences with strike action however I am a bit concerned as to why staff don't strike one day, come back the next, strike another, come back etc if this is to avoid temporary labour.
This strike to me is not a public transport strike, it's not a car manufacturer strike, this is a strike on a MASSIVE scale. Some 75,000 passengers are affected each day. One could hypothetically assume 50% are in favour of the strike but are inconvenienced, the other 50% are not sure what all the fuss is about and are annoyed they had to make alternative arrangements.
This is a big kick in the guts for BA management and should be taken seriously. Like you say Blackace, you are correct about being offered your job back for less conditions however it is in my opinion that history will repeat itself again and again should this course of action be taken.They're already unhappy, make them unhappier and the knives will come out.
If BA were to recruit a whole new crew it would cost them a lot of money and time, not to mention their reputation while flights are cancelled in the mean time to train new crew.
They're not asking for much in my eyes ANYWAY!
I'm not sure where BA stands and how long they can go before they have the possible chance of folding, but one would assume that it is a calculated risk these people have taken. People don't strike for no good reason. A strike is usually the last resort when communication has broken down.
Blackace - I have no prior knowledge or experiences with strike action however I am a bit concerned as to why staff don't strike one day, come back the next, strike another, come back etc if this is to avoid temporary labour.
This strike to me is not a public transport strike, it's not a car manufacturer strike, this is a strike on a MASSIVE scale. Some 75,000 passengers are affected each day. One could hypothetically assume 50% are in favour of the strike but are inconvenienced, the other 50% are not sure what all the fuss is about and are annoyed they had to make alternative arrangements.
This is a big kick in the guts for BA management and should be taken seriously. Like you say Blackace, you are correct about being offered your job back for less conditions however it is in my opinion that history will repeat itself again and again should this course of action be taken.They're already unhappy, make them unhappier and the knives will come out.
If BA were to recruit a whole new crew it would cost them a lot of money and time, not to mention their reputation while flights are cancelled in the mean time to train new crew.
They're not asking for much in my eyes ANYWAY!
Last edited by misshostie; 26th Jan 2007 at 07:56.
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What I cannot understand is that this situation has been made a mountain out of a molehill. Why can't the management just accept! Perhaps they should do a simple pros and cons list and they might see!
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Let's all just throw a tantrum and stamp our feet until we get what we want.
misshostie should become a BASSA rep, if she' not already: With those negotiating skills, crew will be sitting pretty in next to no time.
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There is the ulterior management motive for not budging, the fact that they have to soften up the union for the coming move to T5. I am heavily involved with the T5 project and a lot of people are going to have to get used to a lot of changes there.
the problem with these kind of disputes as misshostie rightly pointed out is that it is NOT a car plant or something similar, it is the public who ultimately suffer the most, so the best comparison would probably be a London underground transport strike. Similar numbers affected, but not losing anywhere near as much money as airline passengers will.
Any strike that dramatically affects the public will never get public support, WW is counting on this.
Woops, the old "I am irreplaceable" mistake, you are not of course, no one is. that was exactly what Wapping print strike workers said and everyone else believed, within days new workers appeared and production resumed. The strike was lost almost as soon as it had started. a very clever management with clear ideas what they wanted. Even well trained firemen can be replaced if the need arises, no one is safe and no one should count on the "It took months/years to train me so it will take months/years to replace me" gambit.
Remember where WW comes from and his past conflicts with the unions, he was brought in to be hard nosed and he's doing exactly what he was told to do. He's clever, be careful.
T5 looms, I actually think WW has already achieved some of his goals and is already suppressing a smile. The vote was huge, but internally staff opinion is divided, and divided we fall. The real test will be just how many staff actually do strike, that will be the final whistle that decides who has actually won the dispute regardless of whether it continues on or not.
I am all for your strike if you feel its justified, and even if I am not, the vote being so overwhelming gives you the right to take such action. But to win or even compete you need to be cleverer than your opponent, and in this case I dont think BASSA are because their thoughts are still clouded by old unionistic attitudes.
Lets just hope that some compromise can be made before Tuesday, but if it is, it will have to come from the unions I think, I cant see any possibility of WW compromising anything, after all its his brief, its his job to do exactly what he's doing and he has a long time to work out his strategy.
the problem with these kind of disputes as misshostie rightly pointed out is that it is NOT a car plant or something similar, it is the public who ultimately suffer the most, so the best comparison would probably be a London underground transport strike. Similar numbers affected, but not losing anywhere near as much money as airline passengers will.
Any strike that dramatically affects the public will never get public support, WW is counting on this.
If BA were to recruit a whole new crew it would cost them a lot of money and time
Remember where WW comes from and his past conflicts with the unions, he was brought in to be hard nosed and he's doing exactly what he was told to do. He's clever, be careful.
T5 looms, I actually think WW has already achieved some of his goals and is already suppressing a smile. The vote was huge, but internally staff opinion is divided, and divided we fall. The real test will be just how many staff actually do strike, that will be the final whistle that decides who has actually won the dispute regardless of whether it continues on or not.
I am all for your strike if you feel its justified, and even if I am not, the vote being so overwhelming gives you the right to take such action. But to win or even compete you need to be cleverer than your opponent, and in this case I dont think BASSA are because their thoughts are still clouded by old unionistic attitudes.
Lets just hope that some compromise can be made before Tuesday, but if it is, it will have to come from the unions I think, I cant see any possibility of WW compromising anything, after all its his brief, its his job to do exactly what he's doing and he has a long time to work out his strategy.
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Who would like a P45?
blackace
The often quoted 96% support is actually 96% of BASSA members who voted.
Those who voted to strike 8300 divided by CC in BA 14500 is a less than impressive 57%
Factor in the "strike breakers/thorw a sickie mob" and this strike will quickly collapse.
I suppose that is why there are 6 LH services running from LGW plus all the other routes with cargo. On Tue when it is known how many won't strike a few more services will be reinstated.
After the 12 week industrial action protection limit is reached the hardcore strikers will be shown the door!!!
vote being so overwhelming
The often quoted 96% support is actually 96% of BASSA members who voted.
Those who voted to strike 8300 divided by CC in BA 14500 is a less than impressive 57%
Factor in the "strike breakers/thorw a sickie mob" and this strike will quickly collapse.
I suppose that is why there are 6 LH services running from LGW plus all the other routes with cargo. On Tue when it is known how many won't strike a few more services will be reinstated.
After the 12 week industrial action protection limit is reached the hardcore strikers will be shown the door!!!
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What I find sad is that many of the crew I am flying with are now expressing doubts as to whether BASSA are justified in organizing this strike...it seems many people voted 'yes' not out of conviction, but out of intimidation..especially so for the most junior crew, mainly on shorthaul. How very, very sad.
What is even worse, many crew do not apparently know what exactly they are striking for...that really says a lot.
What is even worse, many crew do not apparently know what exactly they are striking for...that really says a lot.
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The often quoted 96% support is actually 96% of BASSA members who voted.
Those who voted to strike 8300 divided by CC in BA 14500 is a less than impressive 57%
Those who voted to strike 8300 divided by CC in BA 14500 is a less than impressive 57%
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Stormin and Coffee, thanks for your comments, but as I said this is not here to discuss the situation. Its simply a request I suppose to not discuss the situation on duty.
However the ballots were sent to our residence and posted so there was no one standing over the balloters shoulders telling them what to vote.
And secondly, EG300 is not the primary reason for the strike. There are many many issues. And for the record, the reason why EG300 is included is primarily because management have been breaking agreements made regarding the origional introduction of EG300. And I assure you that we are not going on strike over "ingrown toenails"!!! Must admit, thats the funniest thing I have heard since all this started!
However the ballots were sent to our residence and posted so there was no one standing over the balloters shoulders telling them what to vote.
And secondly, EG300 is not the primary reason for the strike. There are many many issues. And for the record, the reason why EG300 is included is primarily because management have been breaking agreements made regarding the origional introduction of EG300. And I assure you that we are not going on strike over "ingrown toenails"!!! Must admit, thats the funniest thing I have heard since all this started!
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I like the way mishostie blames BA management. Nobody else then?
I'm not travelling staff but I know you are not as "world class" as you think you are. Look at the press!
Go on strike -nobody in the real world (that is The Cty, Wall St. Japan China) gives two monkies about your collective hissy fit.
You will lose pay, staff travel and performance bonus - what will you get back?
Byeeee!
I'm not travelling staff but I know you are not as "world class" as you think you are. Look at the press!
Go on strike -nobody in the real world (that is The Cty, Wall St. Japan China) gives two monkies about your collective hissy fit.
You will lose pay, staff travel and performance bonus - what will you get back?
Byeeee!