BA IR issues
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Perhaps it is in your OWN experience that the "bad old days never went away". I work a lot on the Upper Deck and I have almost always enjoyed a good relationship with the flight crew - of course there are a few bad apples, but aren't there everywhere? I try not to take it personally and tar the entire flight crew community with the same brush.
I must say: it is the first time I have come across the purported LGW training methods. As I have no first-hand knowledge, I can only assume that it is either part of the rumour mill or an isolated case (perhaps ANOTHER person with an axe to grind?). If those allegations were even slightly true, I think that's all pretty sad really.
It does seem wholly reasonable to me, with regard to the bus and the car park, that majority rule would dictate that 11/15 people should be catered for before the remaining 2.
And I imagine that it would be fair to ask that a CSD also be upgraded should the flight crew get upgrades.
We have saved the company money in ways that are not entirely quantifiable: .......
Those stairs and baggage "slope" outside Compass are treacherous (don't laugh: YOU do it in heels!), but we grudgingly negotiate them when using the BA1 service (now that the Central Area bus service has been withdrawn) and during back-to-backs;
On a serious note, the BA1 is coming back, but the demand for its return is symptomatic of some of BASSAs issues. If people choose to live in far flung provinces and commute into LHR then it isn't really BAs job to provide a dedicated bus. It's nice if they do but it's not really a strike issue if they don't.
I think you'll also find that with the airlines that pay their crew peanuts, many of them are on the fiddle: I have never had the "pleasure" of working for a charter company (yet?), but I have many colleagues who have, and who swear that it is the rule rather than the exception to cook the books on the selling of alcohol, and that they were used to seeing everything that wasn't nailed down disappear from the aircraft, something at BA, that would be unthinkable.
We KNOW we are going to get shafted, but at least we are putting up as much of a fight as we can - if we didn't, YOU would be writing in 6 months time about how we "agreed" to the conditions and "signed up to them". The only reason we have the conditions we enjoy at LHR, is sheer numbers and a stubborn union.
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I would like to wish the BA cabin crew best of luck in their negotiations. We at UAL support your efforts to maintain a living wage for all and stop the firing of crew based on sick leave. Our mgmt is doing that to us, unfortunately we have no contract wording on sick leave/discipline. Please stand together regardless !!
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Oh dear, seems there are just two of us left in the room.... When I came back to this site to try and gain another perspective on the issue (apart from only Management and BASSA's, I mean), I had a feeling I would be faced with the same old faces: either you or Sporran. But that's ok. Gosh, where to start...
The "old us and them mentality" was not purely an LHR thing. I agree with you that it was almost solely a Longhaul thing as the shorthaul pilots work as hard as the cabin crew and there is more face-to-face contact, resulting in a better feeling of 'comraderie'. I have been Eurofleet, Gatwick Longhaul and Heathrow Longhaul-based, so I speak from experience.
I still don't believe you about the allegations of SEP instructors at Gatwick. It certainly wasn't taught in my day, and anything in the rumour mill makes its way to the BASSA website pretty quickly - and that would be far too juicy for people to keep to themselves...
On both the BA1 bus and the crew bus to the Arora, I disagree with you: In my post, I was not referring to the BA1, but the Central Area bus. That service has been withdrawn, and it does make sense, but it has added half an hour on to my commute to work. Although I understand your "you have cabin shoes, don't you" comment was made in jest, I should point out that I am prohibited from wearing cabin shoes or loafers with my uniform skirt - (a "court shoe" is recommended.) I love your manipulation of the figures of crew wanting to go to the car park - in my many years of flying, there is ALWAYS a small minority of people not staying at the Arora. Furthermore, your observation of all the air kissing that goes on is not news to me. I don't know how often you have to endure those torturous few minutes, but I have to live with it 3 out of every 4 trips I go on, ie: trips other than back-to-backs. Which brings me neatly to my next point: not everyone chooses to live in "far-flung provinces". You and I have had this conversation before: I am on the "new" contract, find it difficult to make ends meet every month, and so cannot afford to run a car (queue sad music - ha ha) I don't live in a far-flung place - I live on the outskirts of London, so I have to rely on any transport that will get me to work in a timely fashion. First we stopped subsidising the 285 bus, so that was withdrawn, then the Central Area bus disappeared, then they started only running the BA1 to service the Waterside/office based community- so thank goodness that is coming back - I don't know what your experience of public transport is, but I allow a great deal of wiggle-room when it comes to getting to work and in all my years of flying, I have never been late. It is a trying experience dragging my suitcase, cabin bag and handbag up and down stairs, on and off transport, in rain, high winds and on sweltering days in my heels, and that last slope is the one that nearly breaks the camel's back, but I try to come to work groomed and eager. (I was almost drowned out by the violins there...)
I will forgive you your comments about the fiddling that goes on, as I believe you are as jet-lagged as I. I said "charter companies" and I refer to the likes of Air2000, Monarch, Brittania, etc. Not Virgin. I obviously meant it to refer, amongst other "fiddles", to the practice of SELLING alcohol on board, a method which charter companies, and NOT Virgin, employ. Many BA crew are charter veterans, so if you have not been filled in on the various stories, bring it up at your next room party, without prejudice and sit back and listen to the various "cons". I was quite amazed, and although it goes against the grain of my principles (ooh, get me!), I secretly thought it was quite enterprising and showed incredibly ingenious thinking.
I know the small savings I am making are a drop in the ocean, but I was told that those cr*ppy little washbags were worth £26 each (unbelievable!), so each one recycled must make some difference - and times that by the number of flights per day. It's small, I don't get paid extra to do it, but every little bit helps.
You have misunderstood the EG300 issue.The EG300 was agreed to with stipulations by the union, that the management swore they would adhere to - and then went back on their word. We agree it was a necessary change, but the rules were broken by the very people who drew them up, and we take issue with that. We were assured that due to the "special" nature of our job, discretion would be applied - and they even employed a whole new management team to deal with that (hmmm: cost saving...) - so was discretion applied? Was it heck! When someone has their appendix removed and is then told that only 2 days of their recuperation (including the day of operation) will be "discounted" - that is a sorry state of affairs.
The whole payscale thing is my own personal bugbear. I think I am giving my anonymity here by divulging this, but I have had enough face-to-face conversations about this, not to care. The issue HAS been going on for 10 years as there is a band of about 400 crew who started on one contract and were forced onto the new contract or told they could leave. One would suppose that was illegal, but one would be wrong. We were also assured that when we reached the top of our payscale, the issue would be "looked at" again. I reached the top of the payscale 2 years ago, and I am wanting answers now. I realise that I will be sacrificed yet again, but that, I guess, is the art of negotiation.
I just wonder, CarnageMatey if you shouldn't be directing your ire at our management and their MISmanagement of our company and its resources, instead of all the issues you have with your cabin crew colleagues?
I agree my union are a little over-dramatic, but perhaps they are taking a leaf out of our leader's book: to paraphrase our wonderful CEO, "a reasonable man gets nowhere". I reiterate what I said earlier: yes, I am going to get shafted, but I'm damned if I am going to let them do it to me with my smiling, willing co-operation.
It seems senseless you and I going over old ground. You look after your interests and I'll look after mine. Although I'm sure we have both learnt a bit from another perspective, it hasn't truly changed our opinion, has it? Let's just agree to disagree.
On that note, I bid you farewell, as I need to get my sleep in and my energy up, for tonight is Saturday Night! Whoo!
The "old us and them mentality" was not purely an LHR thing. I agree with you that it was almost solely a Longhaul thing as the shorthaul pilots work as hard as the cabin crew and there is more face-to-face contact, resulting in a better feeling of 'comraderie'. I have been Eurofleet, Gatwick Longhaul and Heathrow Longhaul-based, so I speak from experience.
I still don't believe you about the allegations of SEP instructors at Gatwick. It certainly wasn't taught in my day, and anything in the rumour mill makes its way to the BASSA website pretty quickly - and that would be far too juicy for people to keep to themselves...
On both the BA1 bus and the crew bus to the Arora, I disagree with you: In my post, I was not referring to the BA1, but the Central Area bus. That service has been withdrawn, and it does make sense, but it has added half an hour on to my commute to work. Although I understand your "you have cabin shoes, don't you" comment was made in jest, I should point out that I am prohibited from wearing cabin shoes or loafers with my uniform skirt - (a "court shoe" is recommended.) I love your manipulation of the figures of crew wanting to go to the car park - in my many years of flying, there is ALWAYS a small minority of people not staying at the Arora. Furthermore, your observation of all the air kissing that goes on is not news to me. I don't know how often you have to endure those torturous few minutes, but I have to live with it 3 out of every 4 trips I go on, ie: trips other than back-to-backs. Which brings me neatly to my next point: not everyone chooses to live in "far-flung provinces". You and I have had this conversation before: I am on the "new" contract, find it difficult to make ends meet every month, and so cannot afford to run a car (queue sad music - ha ha) I don't live in a far-flung place - I live on the outskirts of London, so I have to rely on any transport that will get me to work in a timely fashion. First we stopped subsidising the 285 bus, so that was withdrawn, then the Central Area bus disappeared, then they started only running the BA1 to service the Waterside/office based community- so thank goodness that is coming back - I don't know what your experience of public transport is, but I allow a great deal of wiggle-room when it comes to getting to work and in all my years of flying, I have never been late. It is a trying experience dragging my suitcase, cabin bag and handbag up and down stairs, on and off transport, in rain, high winds and on sweltering days in my heels, and that last slope is the one that nearly breaks the camel's back, but I try to come to work groomed and eager. (I was almost drowned out by the violins there...)
I will forgive you your comments about the fiddling that goes on, as I believe you are as jet-lagged as I. I said "charter companies" and I refer to the likes of Air2000, Monarch, Brittania, etc. Not Virgin. I obviously meant it to refer, amongst other "fiddles", to the practice of SELLING alcohol on board, a method which charter companies, and NOT Virgin, employ. Many BA crew are charter veterans, so if you have not been filled in on the various stories, bring it up at your next room party, without prejudice and sit back and listen to the various "cons". I was quite amazed, and although it goes against the grain of my principles (ooh, get me!), I secretly thought it was quite enterprising and showed incredibly ingenious thinking.
I know the small savings I am making are a drop in the ocean, but I was told that those cr*ppy little washbags were worth £26 each (unbelievable!), so each one recycled must make some difference - and times that by the number of flights per day. It's small, I don't get paid extra to do it, but every little bit helps.
You have misunderstood the EG300 issue.The EG300 was agreed to with stipulations by the union, that the management swore they would adhere to - and then went back on their word. We agree it was a necessary change, but the rules were broken by the very people who drew them up, and we take issue with that. We were assured that due to the "special" nature of our job, discretion would be applied - and they even employed a whole new management team to deal with that (hmmm: cost saving...) - so was discretion applied? Was it heck! When someone has their appendix removed and is then told that only 2 days of their recuperation (including the day of operation) will be "discounted" - that is a sorry state of affairs.
The whole payscale thing is my own personal bugbear. I think I am giving my anonymity here by divulging this, but I have had enough face-to-face conversations about this, not to care. The issue HAS been going on for 10 years as there is a band of about 400 crew who started on one contract and were forced onto the new contract or told they could leave. One would suppose that was illegal, but one would be wrong. We were also assured that when we reached the top of our payscale, the issue would be "looked at" again. I reached the top of the payscale 2 years ago, and I am wanting answers now. I realise that I will be sacrificed yet again, but that, I guess, is the art of negotiation.
I just wonder, CarnageMatey if you shouldn't be directing your ire at our management and their MISmanagement of our company and its resources, instead of all the issues you have with your cabin crew colleagues?
I agree my union are a little over-dramatic, but perhaps they are taking a leaf out of our leader's book: to paraphrase our wonderful CEO, "a reasonable man gets nowhere". I reiterate what I said earlier: yes, I am going to get shafted, but I'm damned if I am going to let them do it to me with my smiling, willing co-operation.
It seems senseless you and I going over old ground. You look after your interests and I'll look after mine. Although I'm sure we have both learnt a bit from another perspective, it hasn't truly changed our opinion, has it? Let's just agree to disagree.
On that note, I bid you farewell, as I need to get my sleep in and my energy up, for tonight is Saturday Night! Whoo!
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Cabin Crew management is appalling, no doubts there.
But, is that because they have to deal with the TGWU and Bassa's ridiculous work practices and union agreements and their never negotiate tactics.
CC are very inflexible and maybe Bassa have given BA the opportunity to finally sort out some of those issues once and for all.
Time Bassa's lies were exposed too!
But, is that because they have to deal with the TGWU and Bassa's ridiculous work practices and union agreements and their never negotiate tactics.
CC are very inflexible and maybe Bassa have given BA the opportunity to finally sort out some of those issues once and for all.
Time Bassa's lies were exposed too!
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I still don't believe you about the allegations of SEP instructors at Gatwick. It certainly wasn't taught in my day, and anything in the rumour mill makes its way to the BASSA website pretty quickly - and that would be far too juicy for people to keep to themselves...
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...oh dear. When I really thought it wouldn't come to this, it appears my worst fears have been realised: word on the street is that talks have not so much "been adjourned" as broken down. It seems that the only concession that has been negotiated and agreed on, is the re-instatement of the BA1 bus on weekends... I thought that was a done deal? So that is the sum total on what the two sides have been able to agree on? In THREE days? That is pathetic!
I just find it all so depressing. Either way, it's a death knell for my 'career'. If I can only just make ends meet now (and that is WITH no room service, no getting p*ssed downroute and fancy schmancy meals, Delsy dining and not running a car), I sure as hell am going to struggle over the next few years, so a change of career beckons, I guess. Teaching inner-city delinquents, here we come! Sad really, as I am one of the "cheap" crew - I guess the older ones and those with financial support from partners will stay.
So may I bid all on this site adieu. I expect the inevitable divisiveness will ensue and that is too embarassing and depressing to bear.
Galley Wench - thanks for the support. Tough times ahead for all...
I just find it all so depressing. Either way, it's a death knell for my 'career'. If I can only just make ends meet now (and that is WITH no room service, no getting p*ssed downroute and fancy schmancy meals, Delsy dining and not running a car), I sure as hell am going to struggle over the next few years, so a change of career beckons, I guess. Teaching inner-city delinquents, here we come! Sad really, as I am one of the "cheap" crew - I guess the older ones and those with financial support from partners will stay.
So may I bid all on this site adieu. I expect the inevitable divisiveness will ensue and that is too embarassing and depressing to bear.
Galley Wench - thanks for the support. Tough times ahead for all...
Maus,
Whatever you think - I am most certainly NOT anti-cabin crew. If we were to meet on board an aeroplane tomorrow I am certain you would agree with that promise.
What I do feel very strongly about is that your BASSA reps have been on an ego-trip and have led a lot of really good folk into a very difficult situation. I am pretty certain that CM is not the rottweiler that he appears to be - well surely not!!!!!
I do think that we all vent our frustrations on an anonymous forum, more so that if we were face-to-face. There are a lot of points (from both sides) raised on this forum that I have a lot of empathy with. However, to often pilots are insulted for telling the truth!! 
Problems:
- The incident regarding building a LRBL at the wrong door, without evening informing the captain, is appalling.
- The garbage that is being spouted by some cabin crew instructors at Cranebank is wrong.
- The downright lies that came from BASSA regarding the pension 'agreement' and the totally pathetic personal attack on one of the BALPA reps who had spent so much effort in trying to secure the best pension for ALL of us. Were these lies just to try and gain some 'political gain' and to touch egos that could not comprehend the financial ability of the BALPA rep they villified.
- At a time when BALPA & BASSA had been working together to secure our pensions some of us thought (and hoped) that it might be the dawn of a better atmosphere - until the unwarranted attack above.
- The atmosphere either side of the flight deck door is certainly very present, but almost exclusively on L/H. Thankfully there is a really good working relationship on S/H - well 99.9% of the time!!
The expression 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter' sums up some of the seemingly polarised views on here.
I was pretty certain that WW was going to take BASSA on, but I dare not think what will happen next. I'm really sorry that you have been led by scaremongering and rhetoric, rather than by hard facts and and considered debate.
Whatever you think - I am most certainly NOT anti-cabin crew. If we were to meet on board an aeroplane tomorrow I am certain you would agree with that promise.
What I do feel very strongly about is that your BASSA reps have been on an ego-trip and have led a lot of really good folk into a very difficult situation. I am pretty certain that CM is not the rottweiler that he appears to be - well surely not!!!!!
I do think that we all vent our frustrations on an anonymous forum, more so that if we were face-to-face. There are a lot of points (from both sides) raised on this forum that I have a lot of empathy with. However, to often pilots are insulted for telling the truth!! Problems:
- The incident regarding building a LRBL at the wrong door, without evening informing the captain, is appalling.
- The garbage that is being spouted by some cabin crew instructors at Cranebank is wrong.
- The downright lies that came from BASSA regarding the pension 'agreement' and the totally pathetic personal attack on one of the BALPA reps who had spent so much effort in trying to secure the best pension for ALL of us. Were these lies just to try and gain some 'political gain' and to touch egos that could not comprehend the financial ability of the BALPA rep they villified.
- At a time when BALPA & BASSA had been working together to secure our pensions some of us thought (and hoped) that it might be the dawn of a better atmosphere - until the unwarranted attack above.
- The atmosphere either side of the flight deck door is certainly very present, but almost exclusively on L/H. Thankfully there is a really good working relationship on S/H - well 99.9% of the time!!
The expression 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter' sums up some of the seemingly polarised views on here.
I was pretty certain that WW was going to take BASSA on, but I dare not think what will happen next. I'm really sorry that you have been led by scaremongering and rhetoric, rather than by hard facts and and considered debate.
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The situation that we as crew and our management find ourselves in seems to be entirely different depending on whom you listen to...
If you listen to BASSA and read the postings on their website it seems that the company is doing a large-scale smash and grab on our Ts&Cs with imposition being the order of the day.
If you listen to Amicus they are in talks with the company and have made some progress. I had a letter from their full time officer on my door mat when I got home with an update on the issues in dispute as follows:
Pensions - BA Reps will be meeting on the 22nd Jan to discuss the proposals prior to membership being consulted.
Buses - Will be extended to run over the weekend.
LGW Breakfast - Offer has been made by BA, the decision on whether to accept it rests with LGW fleet reps and LGW crew.
EG300 - Matter is of major importance, any review is the property of all BA employees. There are items specific to cabin crew that Amicus are adressing and BA have acknowledged this and proposed a number of changes. Proposals have been made to change ill-health retirement arrangements also.
Report time - BA admit there are issues and have agreed that it can be dealt with at Worldwide Steering.
WTR - BA agree that 900 hours is the maximum number of flying hours permissible. Training days are now being considered as duty. Discussion are continuing.
MAN - Objections at the manner in which the closre was managed have been registered along with concerns over the future of GLA. As the decision on MAN will not be reversed, the closure will not be included in ongoing discussions.
Preferred Seller - BA's proposals have been withdrawn. BA invited Amicus to come forward with ideas to maximise revenue.
Fixed links - Has been referred back to EF Steering. Amicus raised the issue of rest breaks under the WTR. BA has been asked to demostrate their compliance with this in their duty time allocations. Further discussions will take place on this matter.
Single Supervisory Grade - Amicus believes that this has been dealt with outside the current discussions and therefore does not form part of their current discussions.
PSR/JNR Swap - This is of primary importance to Amicus. Further discussions will take place on this issue although BA have stated their determination to go ahead with this proposal. Amicus has asked for guarantees in respect of promotion and employment continuity. Discussion will continue.
Post '97 Payscales - Item is of utmost importance. BA has said they could make money available to help resolve the issue. In terms of over all costs there seems to be no opportunity for levelling of the payscales. Discussions are ongoing.
Maybe I am reading this wrong but it does not seem that discussions have ground to a halt as the 'walking egos' of BASSA seem to suggest. I'll hold my hands up now and say that I am not a great fan of industrial action, I've been out before and will do again if I need to because I am left with no choice but we do not seem to have reached that point yet.
Unfortunately a large number of my colleagues seem to wait on every word (and text message) uttered by BASSA and consume each pearl of wisdom with unnerring trust without stopping to question a thing that they have been told. The reps are held in such reverence that to dare to consider any other point of view except that which is passed down from on high is shouted down as herecy and treason by their coterie of bully-boys.
Here's hoping that one day the politicking and double-speak that is used to brainwash a large number of cabin crew is seen for what it is before too much damage is done.
If you listen to BASSA and read the postings on their website it seems that the company is doing a large-scale smash and grab on our Ts&Cs with imposition being the order of the day.
If you listen to Amicus they are in talks with the company and have made some progress. I had a letter from their full time officer on my door mat when I got home with an update on the issues in dispute as follows:
Pensions - BA Reps will be meeting on the 22nd Jan to discuss the proposals prior to membership being consulted.
Buses - Will be extended to run over the weekend.
LGW Breakfast - Offer has been made by BA, the decision on whether to accept it rests with LGW fleet reps and LGW crew.
EG300 - Matter is of major importance, any review is the property of all BA employees. There are items specific to cabin crew that Amicus are adressing and BA have acknowledged this and proposed a number of changes. Proposals have been made to change ill-health retirement arrangements also.
Report time - BA admit there are issues and have agreed that it can be dealt with at Worldwide Steering.
WTR - BA agree that 900 hours is the maximum number of flying hours permissible. Training days are now being considered as duty. Discussion are continuing.
MAN - Objections at the manner in which the closre was managed have been registered along with concerns over the future of GLA. As the decision on MAN will not be reversed, the closure will not be included in ongoing discussions.
Preferred Seller - BA's proposals have been withdrawn. BA invited Amicus to come forward with ideas to maximise revenue.
Fixed links - Has been referred back to EF Steering. Amicus raised the issue of rest breaks under the WTR. BA has been asked to demostrate their compliance with this in their duty time allocations. Further discussions will take place on this matter.
Single Supervisory Grade - Amicus believes that this has been dealt with outside the current discussions and therefore does not form part of their current discussions.
PSR/JNR Swap - This is of primary importance to Amicus. Further discussions will take place on this issue although BA have stated their determination to go ahead with this proposal. Amicus has asked for guarantees in respect of promotion and employment continuity. Discussion will continue.
Post '97 Payscales - Item is of utmost importance. BA has said they could make money available to help resolve the issue. In terms of over all costs there seems to be no opportunity for levelling of the payscales. Discussions are ongoing.
Maybe I am reading this wrong but it does not seem that discussions have ground to a halt as the 'walking egos' of BASSA seem to suggest. I'll hold my hands up now and say that I am not a great fan of industrial action, I've been out before and will do again if I need to because I am left with no choice but we do not seem to have reached that point yet.
Unfortunately a large number of my colleagues seem to wait on every word (and text message) uttered by BASSA and consume each pearl of wisdom with unnerring trust without stopping to question a thing that they have been told. The reps are held in such reverence that to dare to consider any other point of view except that which is passed down from on high is shouted down as herecy and treason by their coterie of bully-boys.
Here's hoping that one day the politicking and double-speak that is used to brainwash a large number of cabin crew is seen for what it is before too much damage is done.
ABird747,
Your post makes more sense than those who state that only the bus situation was resolved.
I would strongly suggest that there has been some movement on several of the issues, but that would not suit the BASSA cause.
- In a BASSA posting that I saw some weeks ago BASSA were stating that what THEY said was the absolute truth!! It is a very BIG statement to make that you are 100% correct and that means that the other team are 100% wrong.
- Words such as 'fair and balanced' were being used regarding proposals. What is fair and balanced to one party most certainly will not be to the other party.
ABird747, I hope that the info in your post is closer to the truth. At least that means they did negotiate, which is not what 'other sources' would have you believe.
I suggest we lock them all in the same room - and not let them out until they have sorted the situation out.
Your post makes more sense than those who state that only the bus situation was resolved.
I would strongly suggest that there has been some movement on several of the issues, but that would not suit the BASSA cause.
- In a BASSA posting that I saw some weeks ago BASSA were stating that what THEY said was the absolute truth!!
It is a very BIG statement to make that you are 100% correct and that means that the other team are 100% wrong. - Words such as 'fair and balanced' were being used regarding proposals. What is fair and balanced to one party most certainly will not be to the other party.
ABird747, I hope that the info in your post is closer to the truth. At least that means they did negotiate, which is not what 'other sources' would have you believe.
I suggest we lock them all in the same room - and not let them out until they have sorted the situation out.
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Both BASSA and BA management have always been totally useless at 'negotiating' anything.
Just to clear up one common mis-conception here.
Box payments, overtime, crew rest periods etc are NOT included in this.
The only changes that BA can 'impose' on us are 'consultative' matters. In other words, those terms/conditions/structures/perks that we have or enjoy, but do not actually form part of our contract of employment. Attendance management process, shuttle buses, number of pursers on board etc etc. BA are meant to consult with the union on these issues but can impose changes. Of course the union can retaliate by announcing industrial action (which they are likely to do at midday on sunday).
Our other terms and conditions, such as allowences and those contained within out agreements (mbts, bunk rest periods etc) are contractual agreements that BA cannot impose changes to.
The only way these can be changed is with the consent of the employees.
Just thought i'd pass the above info on as I spoke to an IR lawyer yesterday for clarification as I was getting worried about all this talks of losing thousands cos we were going on the hourly rate and it would be imposed and blah blah blah.
Just to clear up one common mis-conception here.
Box payments, overtime, crew rest periods etc are NOT included in this.
The only changes that BA can 'impose' on us are 'consultative' matters. In other words, those terms/conditions/structures/perks that we have or enjoy, but do not actually form part of our contract of employment. Attendance management process, shuttle buses, number of pursers on board etc etc. BA are meant to consult with the union on these issues but can impose changes. Of course the union can retaliate by announcing industrial action (which they are likely to do at midday on sunday).
Our other terms and conditions, such as allowences and those contained within out agreements (mbts, bunk rest periods etc) are contractual agreements that BA cannot impose changes to.
The only way these can be changed is with the consent of the employees.
Just thought i'd pass the above info on as I spoke to an IR lawyer yesterday for clarification as I was getting worried about all this talks of losing thousands cos we were going on the hourly rate and it would be imposed and blah blah blah.
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The hourly rate is not on the table though! I have been in to the BASSA office (both the Compass one and their lovely bedsit) and asked to see the proposal from the company to introduce the hourly rate and NO ONE can produce it.
But even if we did go on the hourly rate do you *really* think we would be that hard up? Look at the SFG pay for the ex-NSP routes, all of the trips that we used to do based on meal allowances are now worth nore under their hourly-rate arrangement.
Every time someone starts banging on about how the hourly rate wil be so bad on the bus or on the aircraft I suggest they go and ask the pilots how they are getting on with their hourly rate as I don't hear many complaints coming from the other side of the door.
If the money that BA is going to make available for an hourly rate includes all the money that they would have spent on meal allowances (and DES, NIA and DOA I think) rolled into one big pot and then divided out by the total number of flying hours that every crew member does and divvied out. It's the same pot of money just being divided differently. Therefore I fail to see how if it is the same pot of money that's being given out AND the tax office have said they will not tax it, how it can be said that we would be worse off. True, when we go to NRT we won't be on $$$ for meals but when we go to DEL, HRE, BOM, JFK et al we will be making up for it. I for one go to the 'other' places much more than I go to NRT so for me it can only be a good thing.
But even if we did go on the hourly rate do you *really* think we would be that hard up? Look at the SFG pay for the ex-NSP routes, all of the trips that we used to do based on meal allowances are now worth nore under their hourly-rate arrangement.
Every time someone starts banging on about how the hourly rate wil be so bad on the bus or on the aircraft I suggest they go and ask the pilots how they are getting on with their hourly rate as I don't hear many complaints coming from the other side of the door.
If the money that BA is going to make available for an hourly rate includes all the money that they would have spent on meal allowances (and DES, NIA and DOA I think) rolled into one big pot and then divided out by the total number of flying hours that every crew member does and divvied out. It's the same pot of money just being divided differently. Therefore I fail to see how if it is the same pot of money that's being given out AND the tax office have said they will not tax it, how it can be said that we would be worse off. True, when we go to NRT we won't be on $$$ for meals but when we go to DEL, HRE, BOM, JFK et al we will be making up for it. I for one go to the 'other' places much more than I go to NRT so for me it can only be a good thing.
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Carnage Matey, I feel compelled to reply to your claim about LGW training and pilots and first class food. I did my 777 conversion course in Dec 06 and at no point during the 5 days were we told about who can and cannot eat first food. I don't understand where this has come from apart from someone with a grudge (I'm not saying you btw). At LGW (can only speak for EOG and SF) we've been well known for our Crm and looking out for each other. I did a there and back yesterday (flight time 1 hr each way). I was on my own in CE, but I still went into the flight deck at least 4 times during each sector (no, I'm not a floozy 
). I believe it's nice to be nice, and most of our colleagues do the same. Unfortunately it's the few (from either side) that ruins it for many. Ever heard of such a thing as "kill them with kindness"? That's what I do when I don't get satisfactory responses, whether it's cc, fc or pax. I dare you to try it for at least 5 flights, and see what happens.
Also, please remember that most of people who post on the SFLGW threads on the bassa web site are actually LHR crew. Go figure?? Confused the hell out of me I have to say.
). I believe it's nice to be nice, and most of our colleagues do the same. Unfortunately it's the few (from either side) that ruins it for many. Ever heard of such a thing as "kill them with kindness"? That's what I do when I don't get satisfactory responses, whether it's cc, fc or pax. I dare you to try it for at least 5 flights, and see what happens.Also, please remember that most of people who post on the SFLGW threads on the bassa web site are actually LHR crew. Go figure?? Confused the hell out of me I have to say.
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Now you're talking sense!
74 Bird. I love your post. I'm in BASSA but I have to say, I think CC89 are being far more professional about this. I want to hear BALANCED facts from my union to whom I pay £16 per month to. Not newsletters slagging off management and name calling. And what's the 'diary of a crew member' about? I'm an adult. Talk to me like one. I'm a little disillusioned at BASSA at the moment. I'm not saying BA are right and they're wrong. Far from it. I'm just not so sure that talks are being as constructive as they could be. If BALPA can do it and CC89 can do it, then BASSA must be able to.
As for the hourly rate, I may well be in favour of it. I don't necessarily think it would be a bad thing. Lets see what they propose. I for one, would l like to earn a more consistent wage. Our pays now are totally dependant on what kind of trips you have and not the hours. If we're all doing our 900hrs then we shoud all be paid accordingly. It makes more sense.
Sporran - you're right. Lock them in a room and don't let them out till they resolve it!
As for the hourly rate, I may well be in favour of it. I don't necessarily think it would be a bad thing. Lets see what they propose. I for one, would l like to earn a more consistent wage. Our pays now are totally dependant on what kind of trips you have and not the hours. If we're all doing our 900hrs then we shoud all be paid accordingly. It makes more sense.
Sporran - you're right. Lock them in a room and don't let them out till they resolve it!
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There was some arrangement on shorthaul that took care of their - lots of duty hours but not many flying hours - situation. I can't remember what it was as it didn't concern me, it may have been some kind of flight pay (that rings a bell actually).
What about the destination payments? I haven't had one for months but I'd be getting a slice of the DES pot everytime I came to work if it was rolled into the hourly rate.
I wish CC89 had had some simple tag-line that was easil picked up and understood aloong the lines of :
'the same money - distributed per hour - not taxed'
Maybe that way crew would not have been caught up in the bluster that BASSA was spouting all emanating from their rep who was doing the negotiation who didn't even understand the proposal.
What about the destination payments? I haven't had one for months but I'd be getting a slice of the DES pot everytime I came to work if it was rolled into the hourly rate.
I wish CC89 had had some simple tag-line that was easil picked up and understood aloong the lines of :
'the same money - distributed per hour - not taxed'
Maybe that way crew would not have been caught up in the bluster that BASSA was spouting all emanating from their rep who was doing the negotiation who didn't even understand the proposal.
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It seems that your managements PR are working in overdrive to turn the public against you, sadly. They are quoting an average sick usage of 22 days per year. While on the surface that seems high- does that factor in maternity leave or occupational injury days lost as those would explain that high number??
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Oh dear, what a mess you cabin crew have got in to, if the company had actually railroaded any of your (mostly ludicrous) payments and agreements you would have a point because these form part of your contract of employment.
BA hasn’t though have they? They are making a few legitimate changes in an attempt to get the magic 10% operating margin that the company needs to SURVIVE.
I notice the crew put up a smoke screen to try and hide how good you have it, remember a lot of us here are not stupid and we know what is going on.
My sister in law is LHR shorthaul and my brother is a longhaul Purser.
He does clear over 3K some months what with back to back payments, destination payments, one down payments and overtime payments.
Shorthaul wages are more respectable but look at how much you work, I know you have long days but these are all due to you having to be bussed back to compass for 2 and a half hours plus between flights, for shorthaul if you add up your actual flying hours (block time spent on the aircraft) over a month you average 51 verses 80 for pilots, that’s 63%, so a shorthaul pilot on a 75% contract still works harder than a full time crew member. To do an annual comparison my sister did 493 flying hours last year including some overtime, most pilots are 800-850.
Take your £1700 monthly wage and multiply by about 1.65 to get a realistic equivalent wage.
It’s not so bad then really is it?
Remember it’s your union agreements that keeps the inefficiency going and that’s what rattles BA. If BASSA ever showed any flexibility in keeping the operation going then you would't have the parent-child relationship that now exists.
Now having said all that nothing is changing, you are NOT loosing any money, all the payments stay, you will still keep doing 500 hours per year, you still keep the 1-2-1 trips (and please don’t tell us these are rare, we see your rosters, there are 2 files full of them on top of your drop files in compass), I would urge all pilots and ground staff to go and have a thumb through and see for yourself how little actual FLYING is on them as opposed to actual duty hours.
I don’t want to see you stripped of money or given awful rosters like easyjet and you aren’t!!! I don’t want to see you all miserable, I don’t want you to have to leave. Just please realise that you have something amazing and due to the inflexibility of BASSA from the 70’s you cost the company a fortune.
All the company is asking is that you actually work for what you are paid and not go sick every sunny weekend / Ascot / Wimbledon / Christmas / Lagos / Kuwait etc etc (don’t deny it, some crew actually brag about it!)
If the payscales are unfair then help each other out and merge them not just demand an increase, sure the top guys would take a cut but it would end up fair, and that’s what you want isn’t it? It worked for the pilots, a linear scale with hourly meal pay AND an hourly flying pay in lieu of box payments and the wage bill stayed exactly the SAME.
Please don’t believe the BASSA hype, please don’t destroy this airline, at least not until you actually have something real to strike about.
Please come to work, you will be supported and most of you would be very surprised at how many of your colleagues have no actual intention of striking anyway.
There, my first rant.
BA hasn’t though have they? They are making a few legitimate changes in an attempt to get the magic 10% operating margin that the company needs to SURVIVE.
I notice the crew put up a smoke screen to try and hide how good you have it, remember a lot of us here are not stupid and we know what is going on.
My sister in law is LHR shorthaul and my brother is a longhaul Purser.
He does clear over 3K some months what with back to back payments, destination payments, one down payments and overtime payments.
Shorthaul wages are more respectable but look at how much you work, I know you have long days but these are all due to you having to be bussed back to compass for 2 and a half hours plus between flights, for shorthaul if you add up your actual flying hours (block time spent on the aircraft) over a month you average 51 verses 80 for pilots, that’s 63%, so a shorthaul pilot on a 75% contract still works harder than a full time crew member. To do an annual comparison my sister did 493 flying hours last year including some overtime, most pilots are 800-850.
Take your £1700 monthly wage and multiply by about 1.65 to get a realistic equivalent wage.
It’s not so bad then really is it?
Remember it’s your union agreements that keeps the inefficiency going and that’s what rattles BA. If BASSA ever showed any flexibility in keeping the operation going then you would't have the parent-child relationship that now exists.
Now having said all that nothing is changing, you are NOT loosing any money, all the payments stay, you will still keep doing 500 hours per year, you still keep the 1-2-1 trips (and please don’t tell us these are rare, we see your rosters, there are 2 files full of them on top of your drop files in compass), I would urge all pilots and ground staff to go and have a thumb through and see for yourself how little actual FLYING is on them as opposed to actual duty hours.
I don’t want to see you stripped of money or given awful rosters like easyjet and you aren’t!!! I don’t want to see you all miserable, I don’t want you to have to leave. Just please realise that you have something amazing and due to the inflexibility of BASSA from the 70’s you cost the company a fortune.
All the company is asking is that you actually work for what you are paid and not go sick every sunny weekend / Ascot / Wimbledon / Christmas / Lagos / Kuwait etc etc (don’t deny it, some crew actually brag about it!)
If the payscales are unfair then help each other out and merge them not just demand an increase, sure the top guys would take a cut but it would end up fair, and that’s what you want isn’t it? It worked for the pilots, a linear scale with hourly meal pay AND an hourly flying pay in lieu of box payments and the wage bill stayed exactly the SAME.
Please don’t believe the BASSA hype, please don’t destroy this airline, at least not until you actually have something real to strike about.
Please come to work, you will be supported and most of you would be very surprised at how many of your colleagues have no actual intention of striking anyway.
There, my first rant.
Last edited by plodding along; 23rd Jan 2007 at 08:36.
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Are you striking or not?
Well.....Are you on strike from 29th or not?
I can't make head or tail of the BA emails sent to my exec club "box"!!
I've got quite a lot of interlining to do over the next couple of weeks and I always (used to!?) "Fly the flag" where I can......
Camb.
I can't make head or tail of the BA emails sent to my exec club "box"!!
I've got quite a lot of interlining to do over the next couple of weeks and I always (used to!?) "Fly the flag" where I can......
Camb.