Unhygenic PAX
Riding the Euro Gravy Plane
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Strasbourg
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't agree with your view. The crew (pilots and CC) are also in charge for the well being and safety of the rest of the pax.
You don't get to choose your passengers and sometimes you just have to do the best you can. I still think that some of the comments on this thread do CC absolutely no justice at all.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Essex
Age: 38
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well I think that the airline's reputation would not have gone out of the window at all. There is no way I would risk the health and safety of over 100 pax for the publicity of the airline. If anything, I think keeping the lady and her son onboard the aircraft makes worse publicity than offloading them. pax were complaining for the whole flight asking us why we didn't offload her and if anything I think it would havesaved her a bit of embarrassment if she had been off loaded. To have pax making sickened faces infront of you is not pleasant in the slightest.
And this woman was apparently in the same condition when she left LGW. And the crew on the flight that took her out all asked their captain the same question, but he declined. All down to slots and getting home as quickly as possible I'm assuming.
The agent in Alicante said to me she wouldn't be suprised if twe turned back in 10 minutes time, because of the situation.
And this woman was apparently in the same condition when she left LGW. And the crew on the flight that took her out all asked their captain the same question, but he declined. All down to slots and getting home as quickly as possible I'm assuming.
The agent in Alicante said to me she wouldn't be suprised if twe turned back in 10 minutes time, because of the situation.
Riding the Euro Gravy Plane
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Strasbourg
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tuismle
So that's two Captains making the same decision with the same passenger after receiving the same advice from the CC.Case closed I'd say.....
So that's two Captains making the same decision with the same passenger after receiving the same advice from the CC.Case closed I'd say.....
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Ruritania
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was once at a Prom concert in London and the old man standing in front of me with a young boy was clearly incontinent, there were nauseating wafts of fresh micturation dispersed with galling regularity, one might have kept a watch to his bladder. Now imagine *that* on a plane.
It's not a problem I've noticed like you do on buses and trains, though I once sat next to an overweight American in shorts on a domestic US flight in summer who was eating from a bag full of cakes and gave off a horrible pasty smell.
But the last couple of times I've flown I've cycled to the airport with just a sleeping bag and change of clothes, the first time I managed to get a shower from the sprinklers on the golf course where I was bivvying but the second time not, I do hope that wasn't noticeable on the flight next morning, having done 100 miles to get there the evening before.
It's not a problem I've noticed like you do on buses and trains, though I once sat next to an overweight American in shorts on a domestic US flight in summer who was eating from a bag full of cakes and gave off a horrible pasty smell.
But the last couple of times I've flown I've cycled to the airport with just a sleeping bag and change of clothes, the first time I managed to get a shower from the sprinklers on the golf course where I was bivvying but the second time not, I do hope that wasn't noticeable on the flight next morning, having done 100 miles to get there the evening before.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Manchester
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by SXB
Back to the training centre for you, tuismile, and I hope not to meet you on my travels
since we are on the subject of training centre SXB may i remind you of your training? you are there for the safety and well being of all passengers and other crew on board that a/c even at the expense of one person?
an example given to me during my time at the blessed training centre:
if you are performing resusitation on a heart attack victim, you return to your seat for landing and then resume once taxiing, obviously at this time they will have probably died.
so SXB, may i suggest it is back to the training centre for you? as it may seem harsh, but i would rather one person be uncomfortable and a few passengers experience a bad smell than 200+ experience food poisening etc...
Riding the Euro Gravy Plane
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Strasbourg
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Captcat
That may be so but one can only point out that both captains on both these flights arrived at the same conclusion as I did, therefore I can't be that stupid, can I ?
That may be so but one can only point out that both captains on both these flights arrived at the same conclusion as I did, therefore I can't be that stupid, can I ?
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Manchester
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
no one but yourself SXB has mentioned that you are stupid.
The captains made their decision based on completely different ojectives than why you said what you did, the operation of an airline is very complex and although personally i would not make that decision from a crew or pax perspective i can probably say from a capt, point of view i would end up making that decision.
I am glad saddam hussein is no longer in charge of Iraq, however i do not compare myself to George Bush?
nuff said?
The captains made their decision based on completely different ojectives than why you said what you did, the operation of an airline is very complex and although personally i would not make that decision from a crew or pax perspective i can probably say from a capt, point of view i would end up making that decision.
I am glad saddam hussein is no longer in charge of Iraq, however i do not compare myself to George Bush?
nuff said?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SXB,
Can you honestly say that, if you were on the aircraft at the time, and suppose the captain had agreed to offload the passenger, you would stand up and object to that course of action?
Or perhaps the passenger did stay onboard, you wouldnt complain about the smell?
Can you honestly say that, if you were on the aircraft at the time, and suppose the captain had agreed to offload the passenger, you would stand up and object to that course of action?
Or perhaps the passenger did stay onboard, you wouldnt complain about the smell?
Riding the Euro Gravy Plane
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Strasbourg
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Woolyalan
Your post is ridiculous, nobody is suggesting that either the passengers or the cabin crew should ,or did, argue or object to the Captains decision.
Enough has been said on this subject already but two different captains did ignore their CCs advice and carry this passenger though I accept what 206cc_jim suggests when he/she may have made the same decision in the captains shoes. Even if the woman should have been offloaded you can just imagine what the press would have made of the situation.....This may well have been the motivation behind the decisions of both captains.
Your post is ridiculous, nobody is suggesting that either the passengers or the cabin crew should ,or did, argue or object to the Captains decision.
Enough has been said on this subject already but two different captains did ignore their CCs advice and carry this passenger though I accept what 206cc_jim suggests when he/she may have made the same decision in the captains shoes. Even if the woman should have been offloaded you can just imagine what the press would have made of the situation.....This may well have been the motivation behind the decisions of both captains.
Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SXB posted.
"Your post is ridiculous, nobody is suggesting that either the passengers or the cabin crew should ,or did, argue or object to the Captains decision."
With reference to the decision to offload pax. With my airline, that decision rests with the ICCM whilst the doors are open. The ICCM's decision cannot be overruled by the Captain, Redcap or the CEO for that matter. If the ICCM has a valid reason i.e. pax behavior (foul language, raising their voice to the crew, not complying with CC requests...related to SOP ) they can be offloaded. Ill health.... we have a duty of care not only to the sick pax, but to all the other healthy ones, and for that reason the pax may be declined passage.
I have in the past made the difficult decision to offload pax, normally for reasons of aggresive and or alchohol related behavior. Not an easy decision to make however, once up at 37,000 ft much harder to deal with. Lets face it, diverting costs a whole lot more than an offload delay.
It goes without saying that on every occasion I have received the full backing of the Captain. He/She respecting that I am the one in the front line and am not making the decision lightly.
"Your post is ridiculous, nobody is suggesting that either the passengers or the cabin crew should ,or did, argue or object to the Captains decision."
With reference to the decision to offload pax. With my airline, that decision rests with the ICCM whilst the doors are open. The ICCM's decision cannot be overruled by the Captain, Redcap or the CEO for that matter. If the ICCM has a valid reason i.e. pax behavior (foul language, raising their voice to the crew, not complying with CC requests...related to SOP ) they can be offloaded. Ill health.... we have a duty of care not only to the sick pax, but to all the other healthy ones, and for that reason the pax may be declined passage.
I have in the past made the difficult decision to offload pax, normally for reasons of aggresive and or alchohol related behavior. Not an easy decision to make however, once up at 37,000 ft much harder to deal with. Lets face it, diverting costs a whole lot more than an offload delay.
It goes without saying that on every occasion I have received the full backing of the Captain. He/She respecting that I am the one in the front line and am not making the decision lightly.
Last edited by cheeryguy; 20th Jul 2006 at 21:47.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: here there and everywhere
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by cheeryguy
SXB posted.
"Your post is ridiculous, nobody is suggesting that either the passengers or the cabin crew should ,or did, argue or object to the Captains decision."
With reference to the decision to offload pax. With my airline, that decision rests with the ICCM whilst the doors are open. The ICCM's decision cannot be overruled by the Captain, Redcap or the CEO for that matter. If the ICCM has a valid reason i.e. pax behavior (foul language, raising their voice to the crew, not complying with CC requests...related to SOP ) they can be offloaded. Ill health.... we have a duty of care not only to the sick pax, but to all the other healthy ones, and for that reason the pax may be declined passage.
I have in the past made the difficult decision to offload pax, normally for reasons of aggresive and or alchohol related behavior. Not an easy decision to make however, once up at 37,000 ft much harder to deal with. Lets face it, diverting costs a whole lot more than an offload delay.
It goes without saying that on every occasion I have received the full backing of the Captain. He/She respecting that I am the one in the front line and am not making the decision lightly.
"Your post is ridiculous, nobody is suggesting that either the passengers or the cabin crew should ,or did, argue or object to the Captains decision."
With reference to the decision to offload pax. With my airline, that decision rests with the ICCM whilst the doors are open. The ICCM's decision cannot be overruled by the Captain, Redcap or the CEO for that matter. If the ICCM has a valid reason i.e. pax behavior (foul language, raising their voice to the crew, not complying with CC requests...related to SOP ) they can be offloaded. Ill health.... we have a duty of care not only to the sick pax, but to all the other healthy ones, and for that reason the pax may be declined passage.
I have in the past made the difficult decision to offload pax, normally for reasons of aggresive and or alchohol related behavior. Not an easy decision to make however, once up at 37,000 ft much harder to deal with. Lets face it, diverting costs a whole lot more than an offload delay.
It goes without saying that on every occasion I have received the full backing of the Captain. He/She respecting that I am the one in the front line and am not making the decision lightly.
This is a great example of what I'd call a professional cabin crew.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SXB, you said: "...the Captain did make an informed decision and he decided to ignore the recommendation of his CC..."
Were you there? How do you know that the Captain's decision was informed or whether he just chose the easier option? It seems to me as if he went with the easier option because he was well away from the smell.
The most qualified people to make the decision are the ones who have to deal with the passengers in question and based on the description of the situation, the Captain didn't even see the passenger.
I'm appalled by the fact that the Captain did not back up his crew!
And by the way, cabin crew are first aiders, not medical staff. There is a big difference between the two.
In my airline passengers with pre-existing medical problems who cannot look after themselves are required to travel with a carer or professional medical staff. Given the description of the lady's condition, her son obviously was not meeting his obligations and as such should have been denied boarding.
Were you there? How do you know that the Captain's decision was informed or whether he just chose the easier option? It seems to me as if he went with the easier option because he was well away from the smell.
The most qualified people to make the decision are the ones who have to deal with the passengers in question and based on the description of the situation, the Captain didn't even see the passenger.
I'm appalled by the fact that the Captain did not back up his crew!
And by the way, cabin crew are first aiders, not medical staff. There is a big difference between the two.
In my airline passengers with pre-existing medical problems who cannot look after themselves are required to travel with a carer or professional medical staff. Given the description of the lady's condition, her son obviously was not meeting his obligations and as such should have been denied boarding.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: BIrmingham, UK
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by EC Does It
Flew a woman tonight, bleeding all over the shop. Smelt of sh!t, p1ss, and looked as though she hadn't had a wash in ages............... Then I remembered that I'm a Helivac pilot and that she had been knocked over and eviscerated.
Things aren't always what they seem. Could be that your pax was in dire straits and just needed to get back home for treatment without being able to afford a medevac. There is always a reason for the way that people present themselves.
Try not to be too judgemental, it may be difficult to deal with, but it's not forever. It may just be that you made her day and brightened up her very sad and painful life. We aren't all lucky enough to be able to afford or to be afforded POD healthcare.
Things aren't always what they seem. Could be that your pax was in dire straits and just needed to get back home for treatment without being able to afford a medevac. There is always a reason for the way that people present themselves.
Try not to be too judgemental, it may be difficult to deal with, but it's not forever. It may just be that you made her day and brightened up her very sad and painful life. We aren't all lucky enough to be able to afford or to be afforded POD healthcare.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: BIrmingham, UK
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by SXB
Woolyalan
Your post is ridiculous, nobody is suggesting that either the passengers or the cabin crew should ,or did, argue or object to the Captains decision.
Enough has been said on this subject already but two different captains did ignore their CCs advice and carry this passenger though I accept what 206cc_jim suggests when he/she may have made the same decision in the captains shoes. Even if the woman should have been offloaded you can just imagine what the press would have made of the situation.....This may well have been the motivation behind the decisions of both captains.
Your post is ridiculous, nobody is suggesting that either the passengers or the cabin crew should ,or did, argue or object to the Captains decision.
Enough has been said on this subject already but two different captains did ignore their CCs advice and carry this passenger though I accept what 206cc_jim suggests when he/she may have made the same decision in the captains shoes. Even if the woman should have been offloaded you can just imagine what the press would have made of the situation.....This may well have been the motivation behind the decisions of both captains.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: A normal Northern Land, with Uncle Sam's anarchy to the south...
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Rainboe
Anyone in this state should have been washed before flight and bandaged! She must have been attracting flies! Disgusting behaviour and it should not have been accepted. As far as the groundstaff are concerned, they just want to be shot of the problem as quickly as possible, so all they care about is doing that the easiest way, which is pass them along the system (to the crew!).
I will never forget being met by the groundstaff at JNB who asked the Captain 'a transit passenger coming from Harare was drunk and punched a stewardess in flight. He's settled down now. You'd be willing to take him to LHR, wouldn't you?'. Err..... no, amidst hysterical laughter. You cannot expect the groundstaff to do the right thing- the easiest way to disentangle themselves is to pass the parcel straight to you! I would always go by the recommendation of the senior CC.
I will never forget being met by the groundstaff at JNB who asked the Captain 'a transit passenger coming from Harare was drunk and punched a stewardess in flight. He's settled down now. You'd be willing to take him to LHR, wouldn't you?'. Err..... no, amidst hysterical laughter. You cannot expect the groundstaff to do the right thing- the easiest way to disentangle themselves is to pass the parcel straight to you! I would always go by the recommendation of the senior CC.
Seriously, on a wide body, say with 300 others, you have to think of them all and if this one, poor lady would cause such offense as to make their journey insufferable.
Without knowing all of the facts on this incident, it's hard to make a judgement call, but though it sounds harsh, my judgement based on the limited outline here, would be to off-load her...
Yes, I know I'll go to hell, probably in a handbasket.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: uk
Age: 58
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If i as a non CC, but with some healthcare knowledge may comment:-
Personally i would have taken the decision to offload the poor woman, all the reasons above are valid but i would have based the decision on purey healthcare grounds. she should have recived proper healthcare BEFORE boarding, most airports have a medical facility of some sort and they should have been called in by the check in staff. i belive they lacked in their duty of care for the passenger. the Captain made his decision on his duty to the airline for meeting slot times and not incuring delays, the CC decision was based on their prime duty to ALL the passengers. the others for their health and wellbeing and the woman and son for her health and medical needs. she should have been offloaded and given PROPER medical care and put on a later flight. this woman had open puss sores and also would probably have had abcesses that had yet to erupt, these would have swollen and become rather painful as the aircraft de-pressurises. i belive that the CC made the right call, well done tuismile, hope i fly with you some day, I'll be in safe hands.
all the best.
Greg
Greg
Personally i would have taken the decision to offload the poor woman, all the reasons above are valid but i would have based the decision on purey healthcare grounds. she should have recived proper healthcare BEFORE boarding, most airports have a medical facility of some sort and they should have been called in by the check in staff. i belive they lacked in their duty of care for the passenger. the Captain made his decision on his duty to the airline for meeting slot times and not incuring delays, the CC decision was based on their prime duty to ALL the passengers. the others for their health and wellbeing and the woman and son for her health and medical needs. she should have been offloaded and given PROPER medical care and put on a later flight. this woman had open puss sores and also would probably have had abcesses that had yet to erupt, these would have swollen and become rather painful as the aircraft de-pressurises. i belive that the CC made the right call, well done tuismile, hope i fly with you some day, I'll be in safe hands.
all the best.
Greg
Greg
Just to clarify the position of the ground staff.............
1. I doubt they were employed by the airline, they would almost certainly have been Handling Agents staff.
2. Assuming point 1 is correct, they would not make any decision of this sort without referring it to the airlines Station Manager because they have probably been hit with sanctimonious hindsightedness before.
3. If it happened abroad, or at a station where the airline went infrequently it is likely the Station Manager is a chasing agent and not a direct company employee. They also have limits to their decision making powers placed on them by the airlines.
4. The correct course of action would have been to discuss the situation with the crew, the airlines senior reps who have absolute say in this situation as stated by Cheeryguy, before presenting the passenger for boarding, and if time allows before checking them in but it is rare to have turnrounds of that length these days.
5. I am aware of incidents in the past where a handling agent has refused a passenger without referral to the crew only for the airline to tell the passenger 'if the handling agent had spoken with our crew they would have been accepted'. The Handling Agent was then expected to pick up the repatriation costs.
So next time you think that the ground staff are just fobbing the problem off onto you, please be aware that there might be good reason for their doing this................... not least how your airline has reacted in the past when they have.
I appreciate that the above shouldn't apply if it is the airlines own ground staff handling the flights, but then they have more authority.
1. I doubt they were employed by the airline, they would almost certainly have been Handling Agents staff.
2. Assuming point 1 is correct, they would not make any decision of this sort without referring it to the airlines Station Manager because they have probably been hit with sanctimonious hindsightedness before.
3. If it happened abroad, or at a station where the airline went infrequently it is likely the Station Manager is a chasing agent and not a direct company employee. They also have limits to their decision making powers placed on them by the airlines.
4. The correct course of action would have been to discuss the situation with the crew, the airlines senior reps who have absolute say in this situation as stated by Cheeryguy, before presenting the passenger for boarding, and if time allows before checking them in but it is rare to have turnrounds of that length these days.
5. I am aware of incidents in the past where a handling agent has refused a passenger without referral to the crew only for the airline to tell the passenger 'if the handling agent had spoken with our crew they would have been accepted'. The Handling Agent was then expected to pick up the repatriation costs.
So next time you think that the ground staff are just fobbing the problem off onto you, please be aware that there might be good reason for their doing this................... not least how your airline has reacted in the past when they have.
I appreciate that the above shouldn't apply if it is the airlines own ground staff handling the flights, but then they have more authority.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: here there and everywhere
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If it happened to me first I would discuss things privately with the travel companion (must have one if he/she is not self-sufficient or has a medical condition that requires help), check medical paperwork, and if in doubt call MedLink or whatever service your airline has subscribed to. (some airlines use FirstCall)
Our procedures state that if in doubt we must always ask for advice. At some bases we have a travel health advisor service partner and we can contact them if we cannot get through to MedLink.
I had a situation just before I stopped flying where a woman declared to be 34 weeks pregnant (didn't need her to say it to realise that she didn't have long to go) and had no medical certificate or authorization.Nothing. Having attended a stillbirth once before in my life I felt very nervous to take this lady, so we called medlink who suggested we contacted the local doctor (I think we were in Venice) who visited the lady and cleared her for the single flight to London.
Ok, we got delayed (the Captain has no right to say "let's go anyway" when we are on the ground and the purser is not happy to go for such a reason!) but at least we avoided a potentially difficult, dangerous situation and lots of distress to crew and pax alike!
I do not like to tempt fate!!!!!!!
Cheers
FBW
Our procedures state that if in doubt we must always ask for advice. At some bases we have a travel health advisor service partner and we can contact them if we cannot get through to MedLink.
I had a situation just before I stopped flying where a woman declared to be 34 weeks pregnant (didn't need her to say it to realise that she didn't have long to go) and had no medical certificate or authorization.Nothing. Having attended a stillbirth once before in my life I felt very nervous to take this lady, so we called medlink who suggested we contacted the local doctor (I think we were in Venice) who visited the lady and cleared her for the single flight to London.
Ok, we got delayed (the Captain has no right to say "let's go anyway" when we are on the ground and the purser is not happy to go for such a reason!) but at least we avoided a potentially difficult, dangerous situation and lots of distress to crew and pax alike!
I do not like to tempt fate!!!!!!!
Cheers
FBW
FX Guru
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Greenwich
Age: 67
Posts: 900
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What an interesting (and in some respects revolting!) thread.
Where does one draw the line at malodorous/obnoxious pax?
I got an upgrade to J once (on a trip to Honkers so the upgrade was most welcome!) because the guy sitting next to me not only stank to high heaven, but as soon as he got on he removed his shoes and socks -- his feet had an even worse stench -- and started clipping his toenails!
I had a word with a sympathetic CC and he said, 'There's loads of room in Club, go and sit there for a while and I'll sort you out another seat.'
He never came back. Much appreciated mate.
Do CC have the power/authority to tell people to stop clipping their toenails?
Where does one draw the line at malodorous/obnoxious pax?
I got an upgrade to J once (on a trip to Honkers so the upgrade was most welcome!) because the guy sitting next to me not only stank to high heaven, but as soon as he got on he removed his shoes and socks -- his feet had an even worse stench -- and started clipping his toenails!
I had a word with a sympathetic CC and he said, 'There's loads of room in Club, go and sit there for a while and I'll sort you out another seat.'
He never came back. Much appreciated mate.
Do CC have the power/authority to tell people to stop clipping their toenails?