Willie Walsh's CC plans
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Willie Walsh's CC plans
Latest inside info:
Mr Walsh is very keen to streamline cabin services at BA and bring cabin crew costs down to industry standards. The current plans start with LGW becoming one fleet 737/777 (including 747 training for operational reasons) and crew working to a more uptodate work scheme. The proposals mean the LGW cabin crew agreement will allow them to fly in and out of LHR. While LHR crews think they may be safe the plan includes LGW crews being able to bid for/operate trips, including 747 ones (SIN/SYD, NRT etc)...all under a new pay structure/conditions.
Other areas being looked closely at are (reduced) days off after longhaul trips (to come in line with other carriers), crew complements (CSD role redundant/expensive?) and a standardised crew allowance system . BA management are also doing research into Qantas style base points, ie SYD based BA crew who do the SYD/MEL-LHR routes etc to reduce accommodation costs etc.
BASSA are now informing its members about the proposals and are obviously not impressed, but they know some form of change is definitely rearing its ugly head!
EG300 caused a few waves, but WAS implemented and now the next round of talks start.
Mr Walsh is very keen to streamline cabin services at BA and bring cabin crew costs down to industry standards. The current plans start with LGW becoming one fleet 737/777 (including 747 training for operational reasons) and crew working to a more uptodate work scheme. The proposals mean the LGW cabin crew agreement will allow them to fly in and out of LHR. While LHR crews think they may be safe the plan includes LGW crews being able to bid for/operate trips, including 747 ones (SIN/SYD, NRT etc)...all under a new pay structure/conditions.
Other areas being looked closely at are (reduced) days off after longhaul trips (to come in line with other carriers), crew complements (CSD role redundant/expensive?) and a standardised crew allowance system . BA management are also doing research into Qantas style base points, ie SYD based BA crew who do the SYD/MEL-LHR routes etc to reduce accommodation costs etc.
BASSA are now informing its members about the proposals and are obviously not impressed, but they know some form of change is definitely rearing its ugly head!
EG300 caused a few waves, but WAS implemented and now the next round of talks start.
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PURR you are unbelievable.
Hot on the heels of your New Club World post which had no points of reference at all and was littered with inaccuracies (freedom dining etc etc), here you come out with another one just the same!
You sprout all these facts but where did you read about them? Where are you quoting from?
Yes, i'm sure WW would like ALL the things that you mention, he would also like us to be based in India and Pakistan working for a third party company for £200 per month. But I don't think that will happen either!
Your post totally contradicts itself. You start by talking about the LGW single fleet (which is fact), and then ramble on about LGW crew being able to bid for flights from LHR to Narita etc. LGW single fleet is about closing LGW WW mainline and that is it.
Fact......if as you mention LGW crew will be 737/777 'single fleet' how can they operate to NRT on a 747? Despite your claims, the single fleet LGW crew WILL NOT be trained on the 747.
Fact.....we can't even bid for any long haul flights as we don't have a bidding system on long-haul.
Fact....Discussions are only just beginning today (tues) between the union and BA to discuss single fleet LGW.
You obviously have access to the BASSA website where they are discussing it, but with your total lack of facts and knowledge of BA crew workings you are not BA crew.
For those of you without access to the BASSA website, here are the topics of discussion between BA management and BASSA over the next 3 days, and relating to LGW single fleet:
Days off after a longhaul trip
Mix of long & short haul flying in a duty day
Night duties
Report & debrief
Allowances
Visa a& Documentation arrangements
Senior Cabin Crew member-role and responsibilities
Crew Complement
Crew rest seats-hi comfort
Again, the above only relates to the LGW single fleet operation.
Points of discussion re: LHR long-haul are centred around the removal of a Purser position, and on LHR short-haul the abolition of long crew turnarounds at LHR. Also mixed long/short haul 767 flying for short-haul LHR crew and shorthaul crew assisting with boarding.
Also, the 'hourly pay rate' (which I favour) will be up for discussion again also. All these issues are seperate from those at LGW and are due to be discussed once LGW single fleet is up and running.
Hot on the heels of your New Club World post which had no points of reference at all and was littered with inaccuracies (freedom dining etc etc), here you come out with another one just the same!
You sprout all these facts but where did you read about them? Where are you quoting from?
Yes, i'm sure WW would like ALL the things that you mention, he would also like us to be based in India and Pakistan working for a third party company for £200 per month. But I don't think that will happen either!
Your post totally contradicts itself. You start by talking about the LGW single fleet (which is fact), and then ramble on about LGW crew being able to bid for flights from LHR to Narita etc. LGW single fleet is about closing LGW WW mainline and that is it.
Fact......if as you mention LGW crew will be 737/777 'single fleet' how can they operate to NRT on a 747? Despite your claims, the single fleet LGW crew WILL NOT be trained on the 747.
Fact.....we can't even bid for any long haul flights as we don't have a bidding system on long-haul.
Fact....Discussions are only just beginning today (tues) between the union and BA to discuss single fleet LGW.
You obviously have access to the BASSA website where they are discussing it, but with your total lack of facts and knowledge of BA crew workings you are not BA crew.
For those of you without access to the BASSA website, here are the topics of discussion between BA management and BASSA over the next 3 days, and relating to LGW single fleet:
Days off after a longhaul trip
Mix of long & short haul flying in a duty day
Night duties
Report & debrief
Allowances
Visa a& Documentation arrangements
Senior Cabin Crew member-role and responsibilities
Crew Complement
Crew rest seats-hi comfort
Again, the above only relates to the LGW single fleet operation.
Points of discussion re: LHR long-haul are centred around the removal of a Purser position, and on LHR short-haul the abolition of long crew turnarounds at LHR. Also mixed long/short haul 767 flying for short-haul LHR crew and shorthaul crew assisting with boarding.
Also, the 'hourly pay rate' (which I favour) will be up for discussion again also. All these issues are seperate from those at LGW and are due to be discussed once LGW single fleet is up and running.
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Inaccuracies?
1.Single fleet means doing both short and longhaul, not one single aircraft!
2.No, bidding does not exist YET on WW, but it's part of the single fleet plans and LGW crews WILL be able to bid for 747 trips....
I suggest you stick to pressing BREW on the coffee machine!
1.Single fleet means doing both short and longhaul, not one single aircraft!
2.No, bidding does not exist YET on WW, but it's part of the single fleet plans and LGW crews WILL be able to bid for 747 trips....
I suggest you stick to pressing BREW on the coffee machine!
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ROSTAR bidding exists for LHR WW.
There will be changes at LHR taking place but only to fall in line with T5 implementation.
Such as long turnarounds, these are likely to be abolished when the crew and aircraft will all be operating from the same building. Time will be allowed for delays but not up to almost 4 hour turnarounds where they are now.
Shorthaul Eurofleet are already operating Longhaul flights, which are being rostered to crew on B767s. No change there.
The CAA only allows 3 aircraft on one flying licence so mixing Airbus family, B757, B767, B747 and B777 onto one licence with currency, is simply not allowed. To select some crew for one aircraft and some for another would simply lead to inadequate crewing and scheduling, overcrewing for standby crews and problems covering sickness and delays, etc. BA have no wish to complicate matters further, or to increase overheads through having to employ additional crew to buffer shortfalls in cover.
Its obvious its going to change, streamlining has to happen to be effective within the business plan, but not in the way Purr suggests. Agreements will be made with the unions as to changes which need to take place and compromised around what BA management want to take place. Its called good business ethics.
I used to work for an airline which had one crew member assisting with boarding. This will only be possible providing CAA regulation are met. Firstly that there is one crew member in the vicinity of each pair of doors whilst the aircraft is on the ground, secondly that one crew member is onboard for each 50 passengers onboard. So if for an example 160 passengers were due to board an aircraft which has 2 sets of doors, you would have to have no less than 4 crew on board as soon as the 151st passenger steps on. From experience, it does help the crew as they are aware of any problems firsthand before they board, and ensures the customer is being advised of any delays and the reasons for which, and answer questions about products onboard, enabling a passenger for example to run to a shopn if they have needs the crew cant meet (if not delaying the aircraft!!).
Don't you think the BA crews have had enough to deal with this year without you scaremongering Purr?? Leave them to concentrate on their work, please.
In the meantime, I'll be asking someone else to BREW the coffee whilst I decide where to hang my picture in my new office.
There will be changes at LHR taking place but only to fall in line with T5 implementation.
Such as long turnarounds, these are likely to be abolished when the crew and aircraft will all be operating from the same building. Time will be allowed for delays but not up to almost 4 hour turnarounds where they are now.
Shorthaul Eurofleet are already operating Longhaul flights, which are being rostered to crew on B767s. No change there.
The CAA only allows 3 aircraft on one flying licence so mixing Airbus family, B757, B767, B747 and B777 onto one licence with currency, is simply not allowed. To select some crew for one aircraft and some for another would simply lead to inadequate crewing and scheduling, overcrewing for standby crews and problems covering sickness and delays, etc. BA have no wish to complicate matters further, or to increase overheads through having to employ additional crew to buffer shortfalls in cover.
Its obvious its going to change, streamlining has to happen to be effective within the business plan, but not in the way Purr suggests. Agreements will be made with the unions as to changes which need to take place and compromised around what BA management want to take place. Its called good business ethics.
I used to work for an airline which had one crew member assisting with boarding. This will only be possible providing CAA regulation are met. Firstly that there is one crew member in the vicinity of each pair of doors whilst the aircraft is on the ground, secondly that one crew member is onboard for each 50 passengers onboard. So if for an example 160 passengers were due to board an aircraft which has 2 sets of doors, you would have to have no less than 4 crew on board as soon as the 151st passenger steps on. From experience, it does help the crew as they are aware of any problems firsthand before they board, and ensures the customer is being advised of any delays and the reasons for which, and answer questions about products onboard, enabling a passenger for example to run to a shopn if they have needs the crew cant meet (if not delaying the aircraft!!).
Don't you think the BA crews have had enough to deal with this year without you scaremongering Purr?? Leave them to concentrate on their work, please.
In the meantime, I'll be asking someone else to BREW the coffee whilst I decide where to hang my picture in my new office.
Last edited by sixmilehighclub; 29th Nov 2005 at 14:18.
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PURRRRRRR.....unless you know something the Manager of Inflight Services doesn't maybe you should check your facts before you post inaccurate things.
I did my "OOF" course two weeks ago.
The Inflight Services Manager (JH) was there to answer questions.
One of the questions: "Will LGW single fleet crew be trained on the jumbo?" A: "No, only the 737 and 777".
Question: "Will LGW single fleet crew be able to operate from LHR?". A: "No, as all LHR mainline operations are covered under the NSP, which LGW will not form part of".
Have you done your OOF course yet PURR?? Is that where they told you that we will be having freedom dining and LGW crews will be 'bidding' for Oz routes on the 777?
Again, I ask you: What reference are you basing your claims on? I am able to say where I have gained my information. What about you?
I doubt you ever will of course, because judging by your views of BA and their crews in previous posts, at a guess I would say it is just wishful thinking on your part.
I did my "OOF" course two weeks ago.
The Inflight Services Manager (JH) was there to answer questions.
One of the questions: "Will LGW single fleet crew be trained on the jumbo?" A: "No, only the 737 and 777".
Question: "Will LGW single fleet crew be able to operate from LHR?". A: "No, as all LHR mainline operations are covered under the NSP, which LGW will not form part of".
Have you done your OOF course yet PURR?? Is that where they told you that we will be having freedom dining and LGW crews will be 'bidding' for Oz routes on the 777?
Again, I ask you: What reference are you basing your claims on? I am able to say where I have gained my information. What about you?
I doubt you ever will of course, because judging by your views of BA and their crews in previous posts, at a guess I would say it is just wishful thinking on your part.
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Dudes stop getting your nickers in a twist!
What do you think WW has been doin for 6 months whilst he worked "alongside" RE? He was sitting down deciding where the battles would be fought and for what, how far do you think this info has filtered down? Possiblty to JH, but when have managers ever spoken the truth? Come on guys (or gals) get real.
As a pilot who would have thought bidline would be under threat, who would have thought they would take away our pension? Its all on the table!!
As the X files said "trust no one" not even JH
To my mind anything is possible, and the workers at the coal face will be the last to hear............. welcome to the world of WW, maybe even BASSA won't get you out of this.
What do you think WW has been doin for 6 months whilst he worked "alongside" RE? He was sitting down deciding where the battles would be fought and for what, how far do you think this info has filtered down? Possiblty to JH, but when have managers ever spoken the truth? Come on guys (or gals) get real.
As a pilot who would have thought bidline would be under threat, who would have thought they would take away our pension? Its all on the table!!
As the X files said "trust no one" not even JH
To my mind anything is possible, and the workers at the coal face will be the last to hear............. welcome to the world of WW, maybe even BASSA won't get you out of this.
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Talks still going on this week re Singlefleet at LGW . EF LGW crew will only be on 737/777 (however some crew are Airbus trained and that includes 319, 320(bcal), 320 & 321), so not sure what is going to happen to that , but will be asking on my OOF day. EF LGW not going to be on 747. If WW wanted to make Mixed Flying @LHR he could easily get rid of 757 and 767 and be left with Airbus , 777 @ 747 = 3 licences . So watch this space!!!!
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Flyer55,
Just out of interest the Airbus 319/320/32A/321 variants are all classed as one aircraft type for CAA purposes. So EOG crew would be able to fly Airbus/737/777 and still be 'legal'.
Cheers,
tsb
Just out of interest the Airbus 319/320/32A/321 variants are all classed as one aircraft type for CAA purposes. So EOG crew would be able to fly Airbus/737/777 and still be 'legal'.
Cheers,
tsb
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If only the Australia base rumour was true...I'd be one very happy girl if it was! But it's all rubbish, and don't worry all you jealous people, Willie can't just change our contracts without us agreeing to it, which, obviously we won't if it's gonna ruin our conditions, so continue to hate us! 
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Quote:
"The CAA only allows 3 aircraft on one flying licence so mixing Airbus family, B757, B767, B747 and B777 onto one licence"
Can we nail this on the head once and for all. Cabin Crew are NOT licenced.
Cabin Crew operations are regulated under JAR-OPS Sub part O. Cabin Crew are qualified by their company to work on aircraft operated by that company.
<<SECTION 1 JAR-OPS 1 Subpart O
SUBPART O CABIN CREW
JAR-OPS 1.990(b)(2) (continued)
JAR-OPS 1.988 Applicability
(See IEM OPS 1.988)
[(a) A cabin crew member is a person who is
assigned by the operator to undertake tasks in the
cabin and shall be identifiable by virtue of an
operators cabin crew uniform to passengers as a
cabin crew member. Such persons shall comply with
the requirements of this Subpart and any other
applicable requirements of JAR-OPS 1.
[JAR-OPS 1.989 Terminology
Cabin Crew Member; A crew member, other than a
Flight Crew Member, who performs in the interests
of safety of passengers, duties assigned by the
operator or the commander of the aeroplane>>
Flight Crew also operate under JAR-OPS - Sub Part N. However they are licenced under JAR-FCL. For fixed wing operations it is JAR-FCL 1, Helicopters JAR-FCL 2, Medical matters are dealt with under JAR-FCL 3 and Flight Engineers under JAR-FCL 4.
There is no is no JAR-FCL for cabin crew. They are not licenced.
For information JAR-OPS regulations on Cabin Crew operating on more than one type are as follows:
<<JAR-OPS 1 Subpart O SECTION 1
1.1030 Operation on more than
one type or vari ant
(See ACJ OPS 1.1030)
An operator shall ensure that each cabin
crew member does not operate on more than three
aeroplane types except that, with the approval of the
Authority, the cabin crew member may operate on
four aeroplane types, provided that for at least two of
the types:
(1) Non-type specific normal and
emergency procedures are identical; and
(2) Safety equipment and type specific
normal and emergency procedures are similar.
(b) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (a)
above, variants of an aeroplane type are considered
to be different types if they are not similar in each
of the following aspects:
(1) Emergency exit operation;
(2) Location and type of portable safety equipment; and
(3) Type specific emergency procedures.>>
"The CAA only allows 3 aircraft on one flying licence so mixing Airbus family, B757, B767, B747 and B777 onto one licence"
Can we nail this on the head once and for all. Cabin Crew are NOT licenced.
Cabin Crew operations are regulated under JAR-OPS Sub part O. Cabin Crew are qualified by their company to work on aircraft operated by that company.
<<SECTION 1 JAR-OPS 1 Subpart O
SUBPART O CABIN CREW
JAR-OPS 1.990(b)(2) (continued)
JAR-OPS 1.988 Applicability
(See IEM OPS 1.988)
[(a) A cabin crew member is a person who is
assigned by the operator to undertake tasks in the
cabin and shall be identifiable by virtue of an
operators cabin crew uniform to passengers as a
cabin crew member. Such persons shall comply with
the requirements of this Subpart and any other
applicable requirements of JAR-OPS 1.
[JAR-OPS 1.989 Terminology
Cabin Crew Member; A crew member, other than a
Flight Crew Member, who performs in the interests
of safety of passengers, duties assigned by the
operator or the commander of the aeroplane>>
Flight Crew also operate under JAR-OPS - Sub Part N. However they are licenced under JAR-FCL. For fixed wing operations it is JAR-FCL 1, Helicopters JAR-FCL 2, Medical matters are dealt with under JAR-FCL 3 and Flight Engineers under JAR-FCL 4.
There is no is no JAR-FCL for cabin crew. They are not licenced.
For information JAR-OPS regulations on Cabin Crew operating on more than one type are as follows:
<<JAR-OPS 1 Subpart O SECTION 1
1.1030 Operation on more than
one type or vari ant
(See ACJ OPS 1.1030)
An operator shall ensure that each cabin
crew member does not operate on more than three
aeroplane types except that, with the approval of the
Authority, the cabin crew member may operate on
four aeroplane types, provided that for at least two of
the types:
(1) Non-type specific normal and
emergency procedures are identical; and
(2) Safety equipment and type specific
normal and emergency procedures are similar.
(b) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (a)
above, variants of an aeroplane type are considered
to be different types if they are not similar in each
of the following aspects:
(1) Emergency exit operation;
(2) Location and type of portable safety equipment; and
(3) Type specific emergency procedures.>>
Last edited by beerdrinker; 5th Dec 2005 at 07:25.
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Wow Beerdrinker, thanks for the clarification!
But I dont really understand that last paragraph. It says that if two aircraft types are similar (say 319/320), a crew member can work on a maximum of four types.
But on BA short-haul they work on the 319/320/321/757/767.....5 types.
Maybe the 319/320 are considered variants of the same a/c?
Or maybe i'm just thick as sh*t and read the entire thing wrong? Lol
But I dont really understand that last paragraph. It says that if two aircraft types are similar (say 319/320), a crew member can work on a maximum of four types.
But on BA short-haul they work on the 319/320/321/757/767.....5 types.
Maybe the 319/320 are considered variants of the same a/c?
Or maybe i'm just thick as sh*t and read the entire thing wrong? Lol
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KB,
you are quite correct. The 319,320 and 321 are variants of the 320. As such to operate on them you are required to have "differences" training. So SH at LHR operate 3 types: 75,76 and 320 plus 320 variants. As I understand it CC at LGw operate 3 types: 777;747 and 737. (within the 737 family there are several variants 300;400;500)
you are quite correct. The 319,320 and 321 are variants of the 320. As such to operate on them you are required to have "differences" training. So SH at LHR operate 3 types: 75,76 and 320 plus 320 variants. As I understand it CC at LGw operate 3 types: 777;747 and 737. (within the 737 family there are several variants 300;400;500)
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Just outta curiousity juzinsider, how do you know he said this?
Surely if he had the management skills to attain the position of CEO with BA he would at least have the sense (and tact and diplomacy) to keep his thoughts to himself, or between himself and his peers, instead of saying something like that in front of his employees?
Surely if he had the management skills to attain the position of CEO with BA he would at least have the sense (and tact and diplomacy) to keep his thoughts to himself, or between himself and his peers, instead of saying something like that in front of his employees?
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Can we nail this on the head once and for all. Cabin Crew are NOT licenced
To apply for an SEP Instructor to the CAA you must hold a Cabin crew licence, limited to 10 aircraft types.
I didn't want to confuse Flight Crew/ Pilot licences (ie PPL, CPL, ATPL, etc) and maintenance (JAR-66, MultiX, BCAR, etc) licence holders who hold their own paper licences, with a cabin crew licence which is held by the employer. It's not the same sort of licence.
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"WW sat in on an LHR Short Haul CC briaefing last month as an observer.
At the end of the briefing all he said was....
"One sector out is it?" ..... "That won't last."
WHAT UTTER BULL****.
At the end of the briefing all he said was....
"One sector out is it?" ..... "That won't last."
WHAT UTTER BULL****.
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beerdrinker only WW crew fly on 747, so WW LGW Crew fly on 777 & 747, whereas EF Crew in LGW currently fly on 737 (300,436,500 models) and some fly on Airbus but trained on all variants 319,320A,320, 321 as they classed as one type like the 737