3 Crew operating on the 737-200/300
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3 Crew operating on the 737-200/300
I was just wondering if anyone could help me?
I work on the 737 and on a regular basis operate with only 3 crew which is legal minimun. However I have noticed a few differences for the safety demo when i compare ours to other airlines.
When flying with Easyjet, Ryanair, Jet2 (all the airlines that operate on a regular basis with 3 crew) I have noticed that the number 2 will read the demo PA from the rear and the number 3 will do demo at over wings and Purser will demo at Row 1.
At my airline Purser reads demo, 3 will demo at row 1 and 2 will demo at overwings, there fore leaving the rear doors unattended while armed and the door operater being about 15 rows away from their door should there be an emergency.
I know that a low cost airline at MAN recently changed their demo so that the rear doors we not left unattended, and at our airline on all our other a/c the rear doors are always attended on the ground.
Can anyone share any light?
I work on the 737 and on a regular basis operate with only 3 crew which is legal minimun. However I have noticed a few differences for the safety demo when i compare ours to other airlines.
When flying with Easyjet, Ryanair, Jet2 (all the airlines that operate on a regular basis with 3 crew) I have noticed that the number 2 will read the demo PA from the rear and the number 3 will do demo at over wings and Purser will demo at Row 1.
At my airline Purser reads demo, 3 will demo at row 1 and 2 will demo at overwings, there fore leaving the rear doors unattended while armed and the door operater being about 15 rows away from their door should there be an emergency.
I know that a low cost airline at MAN recently changed their demo so that the rear doors we not left unattended, and at our airline on all our other a/c the rear doors are always attended on the ground.
Can anyone share any light?
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Hi mate,
I understand what you are saying for a standard emer situation, but if there was an emergency during the demo, it would not be that hard for the pax to figure out how to open the doors. Move the handle in the direction of the big red arrow and push!
Take it easy
I understand what you are saying for a standard emer situation, but if there was an emergency during the demo, it would not be that hard for the pax to figure out how to open the doors. Move the handle in the direction of the big red arrow and push!
Take it easy
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And Trislander thats it? Great from now on i wont bother being at my door!
What is a standard emergency anyway?
No door should be unattended while on the ground. For a start i wouldnt be that sure that they would be able to open the door, inflate the slide should it not inflate, check for danger. even check before hand that its armed. And crowd control? If there was no crew in that space shouting for them to stand back while they get the door open and inflated the slide would be utter chaos, pax pushing and shoving it would just be a pile up!
I cant believe your airline does this, negligence if you ask me.
A quick note to Chirps might clear this up no?
What is a standard emergency anyway?
No door should be unattended while on the ground. For a start i wouldnt be that sure that they would be able to open the door, inflate the slide should it not inflate, check for danger. even check before hand that its armed. And crowd control? If there was no crew in that space shouting for them to stand back while they get the door open and inflated the slide would be utter chaos, pax pushing and shoving it would just be a pile up!
I cant believe your airline does this, negligence if you ask me.
A quick note to Chirps might clear this up no?
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easyjet used to have sccm read pa when they merged with go they adopted go's way as you've mentioned rear doors being left unattended was their reason for change.( as they could'nt possibly admit go had a better way of doing something!!!!).
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I dont really agree with saying that if there is an emergency then pax can just open the do and hay presto 125+ passenger evacuated with no problem, in that case why should we be there if they are so capable of getting out on their own?
Also, some 737 slides are not automatic, like those on the old -200, u have to locate and pull manual inflation, do u think a passenger would know to look under the flap marked "manual infaltion handle" what if the slide dosnt inflate properly? and also a valid point, are they aware of the checking for hazards outside etc...
Anyone know if there is any CAA regulations on this?
Also, some 737 slides are not automatic, like those on the old -200, u have to locate and pull manual inflation, do u think a passenger would know to look under the flap marked "manual infaltion handle" what if the slide dosnt inflate properly? and also a valid point, are they aware of the checking for hazards outside etc...
Anyone know if there is any CAA regulations on this?
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Remember 1 crew per 50 seats so if the a/c config is 150 or less then yes you can operate like this. If yo are generally concerned mention it to your manager or someone in the training department. Remember no question is to stupid
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crewboi83
I think your concern of leaving doors unattended is justified! It is not logical at all to have 2 CC at doors 1 and none at doors 2. In my airline we have too the CC in charge of the back to read the demo and Purser + number 3 performing, which seems a more logical way to cover all the doors! We also had a Safety memo to remind CC not to leave AFT doors unattended during the boarding and taxi, because some Pursers asked the number 2 to help in the cabin with boarding. Now we are requested not to leave the AFT galley unattended (let's say that there is a tolerance of 2 or 3 rows down the cabin).
You could write about your concern and suggestion to your Safety Manager. I suggest you write it so as to leave proof that someone raised the issue.
I think your concern of leaving doors unattended is justified! It is not logical at all to have 2 CC at doors 1 and none at doors 2. In my airline we have too the CC in charge of the back to read the demo and Purser + number 3 performing, which seems a more logical way to cover all the doors! We also had a Safety memo to remind CC not to leave AFT doors unattended during the boarding and taxi, because some Pursers asked the number 2 to help in the cabin with boarding. Now we are requested not to leave the AFT galley unattended (let's say that there is a tolerance of 2 or 3 rows down the cabin).
You could write about your concern and suggestion to your Safety Manager. I suggest you write it so as to leave proof that someone raised the issue.
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So what happens then if, during passenger boarding, the (say) APU bursts into flames and the fire can't be extinguished, such that the FlightCrew come on the PA and say "This is an emegency, evacuate, evacuate !" ?!
In the cabin you'll have some pax sitting down / maybe buckled up in their seats (err, how does one get out of this seat belt, duh ?!), some pax will be standing up in the aisle (i.e. battling with bags into the overhead stowages - often with CabinCrew in close attendance to help them), some pax will still be trying to board through the main door and none have had the 'safety briefing'.
Maybe the pax should be briefed in the terminal, i.e. before they get anywhere near the aircraft... we can't be too careful can we ?
Imho, I would suggest a degree of common-sense about levels of 'risk' is well worthy of consideration.
In the cabin you'll have some pax sitting down / maybe buckled up in their seats (err, how does one get out of this seat belt, duh ?!), some pax will be standing up in the aisle (i.e. battling with bags into the overhead stowages - often with CabinCrew in close attendance to help them), some pax will still be trying to board through the main door and none have had the 'safety briefing'.
Maybe the pax should be briefed in the terminal, i.e. before they get anywhere near the aircraft... we can't be too careful can we ?
Imho, I would suggest a degree of common-sense about levels of 'risk' is well worthy of consideration.
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On the ground, CAA regs that one crew member must be in the vicinity of each pair of doors. Ie they must be able to get back to the door if an evacuation was called. The best guideline is 6 seat rows. If your airline allows you to be further than this and you feel uncomfortable you wouldnt be able to carry out an evacuation (do you want to get trapped in the cabin whilost passengers figure out how to escape with their bqgs etc?) then speak to your safety managers.
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Interesting concern...
In LOT Polish Airlines we have the demo tape recorded. When operating 3 F/A on 737 the purser is sitting and having coffee at the front( if tape recorder broken - reads the PA :-(( ), while no 3 performing in row 1, number 2 overwing exits, back galley left unattended.
In CentralWings, LOT subsidiary low cost, the same procedure as in LOT. Sometimes the purser reads the demo PA from the back galley, but it is always up to him/her. Hope this hepls.
In LOT Polish Airlines we have the demo tape recorded. When operating 3 F/A on 737 the purser is sitting and having coffee at the front( if tape recorder broken - reads the PA :-(( ), while no 3 performing in row 1, number 2 overwing exits, back galley left unattended.
In CentralWings, LOT subsidiary low cost, the same procedure as in LOT. Sometimes the purser reads the demo PA from the back galley, but it is always up to him/her. Hope this hepls.
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goodgirl, exactly.
I think I am being realistic. Our airline says doors must be covered on boarding/disemabarking and obviously t/o and landing. However doors may be left unattended to carry out safety-related duties, such as demo and headcount.
On the BAe146 the No.1 reads the demo from the front, CA3F does demo at row 1 and CA3R does demo half way down cabin. Doors are armed prior to demo. OK, slide might not inflate and it won't be the tidiest evac but I doubt average joe pax will have any problem opening the door, especially when their life depends on it. Fire outside? They'll certainly know about it as they crack the door open, meanwhile another pax is probably opening the other door.
This is all for a 2-min demo remember.
APU fire- you may not be aware but the APU is enclosed in a titanium metal housing for fire safety reasons.
Standard emergency situation- i.e. one that is written in the SEP manual, not a realistic one.
I think I am being realistic. Our airline says doors must be covered on boarding/disemabarking and obviously t/o and landing. However doors may be left unattended to carry out safety-related duties, such as demo and headcount.
On the BAe146 the No.1 reads the demo from the front, CA3F does demo at row 1 and CA3R does demo half way down cabin. Doors are armed prior to demo. OK, slide might not inflate and it won't be the tidiest evac but I doubt average joe pax will have any problem opening the door, especially when their life depends on it. Fire outside? They'll certainly know about it as they crack the door open, meanwhile another pax is probably opening the other door.
This is all for a 2-min demo remember.
APU fire- you may not be aware but the APU is enclosed in a titanium metal housing for fire safety reasons.
Standard emergency situation- i.e. one that is written in the SEP manual, not a realistic one.
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Average Joe normally aint that switched on, and certainly isnt trained to operate the exits, to know what they are to look out for.
Saftey is saftey is saftey, and if you carry out a procedure that you begin to doubt is the safest way, or creates potentially dangerous situations then saftey is being overlooked as far as im concerned.
It doesnt take long for smoke to enter a cabin, let alone from a door opened by a pax who might not shut it again with flames roaring outside. If a CC member had been there the door wont be opened at all, and comands would be shouted to use the next available exit. Just remember manchester were most if not all the deaths were caused by smoke. Smoke will kill and very very quickly.
"Carrying out a saftey related duty" oh thats ok then we can overlook the other saftey related duties that we also carry out, sorry thats not good enough.
Accidents happen on the ground enough that we need to be at our doors prepared for the unexpected like we should normally. What good is being in the cabin half way through the "saftey related duty" if the a/c never even leaves the ground, need to evacuate and people die as a result of a botched evac? I dont think that " we were doing saftey related duties" would be a good enough reason for the deaths.
Time in an evac cost lives, we are there to sped up the evac, its not going to happen if we are faffing in the centre of the cabin
I just think its reckless in short!
Saftey is saftey is saftey, and if you carry out a procedure that you begin to doubt is the safest way, or creates potentially dangerous situations then saftey is being overlooked as far as im concerned.
It doesnt take long for smoke to enter a cabin, let alone from a door opened by a pax who might not shut it again with flames roaring outside. If a CC member had been there the door wont be opened at all, and comands would be shouted to use the next available exit. Just remember manchester were most if not all the deaths were caused by smoke. Smoke will kill and very very quickly.
"Carrying out a saftey related duty" oh thats ok then we can overlook the other saftey related duties that we also carry out, sorry thats not good enough.
Accidents happen on the ground enough that we need to be at our doors prepared for the unexpected like we should normally. What good is being in the cabin half way through the "saftey related duty" if the a/c never even leaves the ground, need to evacuate and people die as a result of a botched evac? I dont think that " we were doing saftey related duties" would be a good enough reason for the deaths.
Time in an evac cost lives, we are there to sped up the evac, its not going to happen if we are faffing in the centre of the cabin
I just think its reckless in short!
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Girtbar - why would you even consider closing the door again if flames and smoke were coming in? You redirect the pax away from the danger. You certainately don't waste time closing the door again. If you try and close the door, you will more than likely be pushed out by the rush, and you would be useless to anyone. A pax would have no problem opening the door as there is a hell of a big red arrow pointing in the direction to open.
You will always be there to open the overwing doors which are more important to have a crew member there as they are more confusing to open for a pax. many airlines do not brief the pax on the emergency overwing doors.
You will always be there to open the overwing doors which are more important to have a crew member there as they are more confusing to open for a pax. many airlines do not brief the pax on the emergency overwing doors.
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girtbar - You say that 'Accidents happen on the ground enough that we need to be at our doors prepared for the unexpected like we should normally'.
Dare one ask that you be so kind as to quote some examples of said such incidents & accidents - so that we might put the risks into context - and / or maybe also answer the scenario raised previously by Old King Coal?
Dare one ask that you be so kind as to quote some examples of said such incidents & accidents - so that we might put the risks into context - and / or maybe also answer the scenario raised previously by Old King Coal?
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girtbar,
why do you think there are instructions written on the door saying how to open it? in case we forget? i don't think so, it's for those few pax, who aren't all as stupid as u think, who might be a bit clueless, that can't be many though coz it's not all that complicated!
T
why do you think there are instructions written on the door saying how to open it? in case we forget? i don't think so, it's for those few pax, who aren't all as stupid as u think, who might be a bit clueless, that can't be many though coz it's not all that complicated!
T
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Accidents happen on the ground enough that we need to be at our doors prepared for the unexpected like we should normally.
last week we had to fly with rear PA unserviceable. Our procedure is that demo PA is read from the back (even if not on minimum crew) but obviously we couldn't do it.
So we had to play the pre-recorded demo PA as we couldn't leave the rear doors unattended.
I think it's a super valid point crewboi83. Anything could happen on pushback or when the engines are started.
Have you ever seen a flare coming out of the engine on start up? It is "normal" in some circumstances, and I remember a few years ago in Italy a pax saw it from the window, panicked, and run towards the door. Thank god the cabin crew was there to stop him from opening the door while the engines were running!!!! Pax would almost certainly be able to open a door, but they wouldn't know WHEN it is safe to do so, especially if they're panicking. They wouldn't know that in some situations being inside is less dangerous than trying to get out (running engines and inflated slides don't really go together, not considering the effects of jet blast even when the engines are on idle on the ground!!!)
I'd talk to the safety department if I were you. If they don't want to listen....well, that's what CHIRP is for
FBW
Last edited by flybywire; 1st Oct 2005 at 18:51.
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Girtbar its good to see that you are safety conscious and I am not sure of the procedures onboard a 737.But what happens when the purser commences their cabin secure(if they do the demo from row 1) and they get to row 15 or wherever the other crew member did their demo from and an accident happened then? who is covering doors 1? on the 757 operating min crew is similar where the senior who is responsible for doors 4 commences their demo 10 rows away at doors 3.This procedure is perfectly normal for different carriers and a/c types and has been for years.CAA checks are carried out quite frequently amongst UK carriers aswell as sep manuals being approved including sops.I think it comes down to probabilities.....If a pax is being resucitated in the cabin for landing...would you leave them to cover your door INCASE of an evacuation?? I know I wouldn't.
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i agree . if the number 2 does the pa from rear then the senior would leave the doors on cabin secure . at jet 2 the senior does the pa from front ccm4 does demo row 1 and ccm2 demo at row 12 thus leaving rear doors un manned. i have just read the adove post correct??? number 1 in charge of doors 4 on the 757 , shouldn'tt it be doors 1 ?