EBA & IR Issues in Australia (Not for those easily offended!)

[jettlager]

The spin re the JFK dispensation as usual ignores the the facts and uses fear and the threats to push the barrow for it's continuation.

Longhaul cabin crew ought not vote yes to a sector that is deemed illegal for the local crew to do,

The bull**** pushed here is incredible and I for one will vote no.

What have we got?

The LHR base will do it?
The Kiwis will do it?
Jetstar will do it?
Shorthaul will do it?

I'm just waiting to hear that the Thais will be doing it! [Oh thats right. The US government won't give them Visas. Shame]

We will not get SFO if we don't do it?
{Is QF going to start another division just for SFO????. PLEEEEEEASE }

I won't be bullied by dixon and his cronies into doing this inhumane sector and I again ask those to consider why the locals won't do it?

Because there ARE limits to what the human body can endure and still effectively carry out their SAFETY related duties.

I don't think clearly or operate effectively when I'm so sleep deprived and fatigued that I'm nauseous.

Do you?

Jettlager

P.S. Make sure you vote for the ISSUE not the threats or spin.

[Wed Webbing Woop]

I'm with you Jetlagger.

I will be voting a BIG -NO!!! to dispensation.
What next 15.35 hrs for the Northern Winter schedule???? !!!Pleeeeeese !!!!

Oh yeah sure-lets all bend over again.!!

In my view this is the beginning of the end.
The 777-200 ER ( "hub buster" ) will be the Aircraft of the future for QF. You can bet your Chicken Tikka that if QF purchase it , then it won't be just doing your leisurely 14 hr LAX/SFO sectors. It will be pushing the max in fuel burn efficiencies ......17hrs+ ????? DFW. "To infinity & beyond" to quote someone famous.

I may be wrong ( hopefully I am).
But it seems everywhere I go talking to friends @ pubs/barbies et al ( outside of QF ) they are all saying ....."you guys are screwed "!!!
Not nice, when you've put your heart & sole into the ( once loved & cherished ) RED RAT over many years.

[Guardian1]

JFK

jetlagger and red webbing loop


It just doesn't sink in with you does it?? It's almost like both of you are off to afternoon tea with the pixies.

The only bull**** comes from the two of you and your associates(ex FAAA officials) and this is about 1 thing and 1 thing only, you guys not content with your incompetence whilst in office are now trying to stir, at the expense of crew and their job security.

Ive got news for you...it wont work because you and your mates are totally discredited..with plenty more to be revealed to crew if you put your heads up ever again.

The nonsense about inhumane sectors is just laughable. For this bid period and the upcoming bid period the JFK shuttles are being overwhelmingly bid for. Essentially, no-one is being forced to do this trip.And of course, before some idiot says it, on reserve some might get this trip who dont want it.

Guys, we are cabin crew, we work for an airline. There are many trips and sectors that are tiring... that comes with the job.

The point is QF will soon have a new generation of jets. If crew are going to say that we will not fly these longer range jets because the 14 hour multi sector limitation is "holy", then those with that view better start looking for check out jobs at the supermarket on $30K because QF will get crew who are prepared to fly.

The stupidity and ignorance on the part of some in here knows no bounds. Jetlagger you really are a huge worry because you dont know much about anything. The refusal to continue the JFK dispensation will result in O/S based crew being used and this will take away LAX flying from our crew.

The spin off effect will be that as senior crew are dislodged from LAX FLYING OTHER MORE JUNIOR CREW WILL THEN BE ALSO DISLODGED BY SENIOR CREW TAKING UP OTHER DESIRABLE FLYING NOW DONE BY LESS SENIOR CREW.

QF DOESNT NEED ANOTHER DIVISION TO DO THE SAN FRANCISCO FLYING,,, IT WILL SIMPLY EMPLOY UP TO THE CAP (ANOTHER170), CONCENTRATE O/S BASE CREW ON THE LAX AND SFO FLYING AND AUSSIE CREW CAN THEN ENJOY DOING AFRICA AND INDIA.

CREW will vote to continue the JFK dispensation because they are much smarter than the imbeciles like jetlagger give them credit for.

Just like crew turfed out the former nongs from the FAAA and shocked them....crew will similarly support the FAAA position rather than lose more flying and give QF reason to wind down Long Haul.

[jettlager]

Guardian1,

your abuse is like water off a ducks back.

To compare this 15,16,17 hour plus MULTI SECTOR TOD to a single sector of the same length shows that it is you who know nothing of what you speak.

You imply that my refusal to vote yes to this dispensation makes me unreasonable.

Why is it illegal for the local carriers................?

I and other await you learned reply.

[Guardian1]

jetlagger


About the only sensible thing you have said is that i am learned.... i concur wholeheartedly.

But to be serious, i am not comparing it (the JFK dispensation) to a single sector. What you fail to appreciate is that there is no "science" to the 14 hours limitation. That is your first fundamental error. The 14 hour limit is a limit that was arrived at industrially many years ago, when aircraft did not have the flying capacity that they have now.

Your comment "Why is it illegal for the local carriers................?"
is irrelevant . We are an international carrier operating in US airspace.... regulations pertaining to domestic US limitations are of no significance or relevance to what we are discussing. It further demonstrates you do not even grasp the issue. The point is it is not illegal for International carriers to operate in the US in the manner provided for by the dispensation. If it was dangerous as you imply the US authorities would obviously not allow it....... nor would CASA for that matter.

You really lack any abilty to argue coherently or logically.

The dispensation is about doing on average 1 hour more than what our EBA provides and thereby protecting our flying and our job security. SURELY EVEN YOU MUST BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT!

Then again, you say to me "your abuse is like water off a ducks back." Well im not abusing you, but my comments to you probably roll off your back because you obviously do have the mental capacity of a mallard duck.

[jettlager]

gauardian1,

Quote-

"What you fail to appreciate is that there is no "science" to the 14 hours limitation. That is your first fundamental error. The 14 hour limit is a limit that was arrived at industrially many years ago, when aircraft did not have the "

The 14 hour planned limit may[or may not] have been arrived at industrially but it's "spirit" recognises the "science" that there ARE limits to what the human body can SAFELY endure.

You assert the flights are averaging 15 hours and yet in winter we all know these times will blow WAY OUT.

Crew will be powerless to up to 17 AND BEYOND due the the unique circumstances at JFK.

US flight duty limitations dont allow this sector for US crews even though there is far more at stake in savings given the multiple dailys they operate.

Why are Qantas's profits so important..............?

[Pro Golfer 69]

I’ll certainly be voting YES to the JFK shuttle and so will most people. Last bid period the shuttles were crewed by a combination of very junior crew and some seniors. For Bid Period 240 they have become very very popular. They have certainly jumped in seniority. Crew are doing these trips because they are high density trips giving them good overtime and more days off to spend at home with their families.

Neither the company nor the general public give a rats who does the flying. If the kiwi’s get this flying we lose a lot of valuable LAX patterns a long with it. Not only that, New Zealand based crew will be taken off undesirable patterns such as Johannesburg and Mumbai in order to cover the New York shuttle flying. Have a think about the amount of long range and overtime pay that will be lost, not to mention $US allowances. I have operated one of these shuttles and let me tell you it was a lot easier then an LAX-SYD or a SIN-LHR sector. The flights are never full and the whole 7 day trip added up to over 10 hours overtime which equals a pay packet of well over $2000. Comparing us to US based carriers is absolutely pointless they are either bankrupt or on the verge being so. As for this setting a precedent to perform longer duties (i.e. MEL/SIN/MEL) that would be a total breach of CASA regulations and would be illegal regardless of how many crew were on board(check the regulations if you like). Yes the company will be purchasing ultra long range aircraft that can fly up to 19 hours (single sector) So when the company starts flying SYD-JFK, SYD-DFW or PER-LHR, what are going to say ‘nooo too long for us give it to short haul’ and gee do you think they’ll take it?! I’ve worked in a number of different areas in this company where I’ve had to work a lot harder and a lot longer then I am now and I wasn’t even getting close to the kind of money I’m earning now in Long Haul. We need to protect the flying we have by making sensible decisions and by looking at each and every case on its merits. We have lost enough great flying with the opening of the LHR base, let’s not lose anymore!

[tow-truck]

Pro golfer, I think you better check your facts before you post the information that these are highly requested trips.
I have been given 2 of them on this roster and I did not bid for them, and I have spoken to quite a few people that have had them dumped on their roster.
I have had a look at my crew and its quite a junior trip, so on my 2 occasions you are wrong.
However I haven't done one yet! so I reserve my comment until I have completed them, then I will let you all know what I think of them.
I am still against the whole idea of "let them bully us into doing them" or the concept " if you don't do them someone else will"

If we give in on this then they will demand more and more.

It's such a shame we have such a hostile management, it would be so much easier to work with them instead of in spite of them!

ANyway I reserve my comment until I have completed one!

( I did hear a senior crew member state that they will vote in favour of them as they said they will never have to do them and the company will be placated and that means that their trips will be safe! I was stunned! how f()King shelfish is that!)

[Pro Golfer 69]

Tow truck

Just some polite advice. I don't know how long you have been flying hence your seniority but you might want to check up on how you're bidding. Have you changed your standing bid? To get 2 on your roster and not having bid for them is odd. I know desirable LHR and FRA patterns were still available all the way to the most junior line holders, in actual fact there are left over FRA patterns in open time. Another suggestion if you do not want to do them put them up for swap. The trip swap web site is excellent for swapping trips. I also know a number of people who are looking to swap onto these shuttles. Anyway good luck with the shuttles and will await your feedback.

On another note the LHR base have had to recruit another 40 odd flight attendants. Sick leave is over the top. Flights are leaving short crewed out of SIN and HKG because LHR based crew are going sick up line to pick up the extra cash in allowances. The Thai based crew are up in LHR again the whole of next bid period covering standby's because of this duty hour limitation and the sick leave (hence all the Frankfurt patterns available). The company would rather allow flights to leave HKG and SIN ( 2 vitally important routes, financially for Qantas) short of crew then allow SYD and LHR based crews to work together. It is just ludicrous!

[tow-truck]

I have been flying for over 18 years.
Im not a f/a.
And I am very very familiar on the bidding system, believe me, standing bids were changed along with bidding.

Like I said I will see what they are like.

Interesting what you say about the LHR base, I wonder how the spin doctors will cover that up.
Peanut and his mates are going to have to work overtime on this one!

I am glad that QANTAS do not allow cross crewing! I would be furious if I had been turned around to cover one of the (scrubbers)crew that had gone sick upline because they wanted more allowances, its a sensible decision not to allow cross crewing, "the atmosphere would be nasty"

[Pro Golfer 69]

Yes I do agree with you about the cross crewing. A 3 day trip turned into a 9 day trip unplanned is undesirable at the best of times. It just shows you what a cock up this LHR base has been. I mean the Kangaroo route is an important one and these flights are leaving short crewed!

Back to the shuttle. Just looking at the crews on these patterns in the coming bid period. Some are definitely junior but some are also very senior. At the end of the day there are both seniors and juniors who don't want these shuttles and there are those that do! We all want different trips for different reasons, everybody's different in what they need whether it be financial or life style. I mean I get JNB, MNL, CGK and JNB dumped on my roster but I do them not like some people who get their roster and go ‘there’s a sick day, there’s a sick day and there’s a sick day’ then the poor crew on reserve get stuck doing them. A vote is the fairest way to decide and people will have to make choices based on the outcome, that’s the beauty of democracy

[qcc2]

some facts please

pro golfer please show me the casa regs where it stats we cant do excessive duties under current regs. and guardian1 where is the dispensation from the faa in the states. you two seem to peddle some amazing b*****t here. lqf crews are cheaper then southwest / jetblue low cost carriers. and thats a fact. so the nonsense we are too expensive peddled by MM and the rest are just plain stupied. hasen't MM negotiated the AO award. mmhmm

[OCCR]

yes, I know what you mean PRO, but that is what reserve is for, people dont care what they get called out on.
I have no hesitation on going sick on a rotten trip, I wasnt employed to do syd/per/syd let the domestics have it!
Oooohjhhh some of you may be saying!
Well continue to give me the sh!t and I will continue going sick!

Its my way at getting to LG, its part of her KPI, she has to get it down, well if she changed our trips and treated us better she would. MORE sick leave means less bonus..... hmmmm does that make me feel bad?

[White Pointer]

So jetlagger, what happens when we all subscibe to your ideas and vote no to the dispensation? Simple, they get the cheaper crews to do it.

So how does a no vote improve our conditions? QF get others to do it and end of story. So far you have lots of extreme views, but no solutions ie. vote no to the dispensations, display hatred to any LHR based crews, etc. etc. How are these improving our conditons however? A yes vote has us keep the flying (even though it is not as good as it was) while a no vote sees us lose it altogether.

Having done one of these shuttles, they are a long day, but when you get home the pay and the extra time off make them worth the effort. Definantly not as good as a 72 hour slip in JFK, however, better than a 72 Bombay, Manila or JNB (and much more $).

So if you were in charge of the union Jetlagger, and we all voted no to the dispensation, where would we go from there? Are you saying that if you were in charge we would be definantly back to slipping in JFK? And what reasons do you base this on?

[GalleyHag]

From www.ninemsn.com.au

Flight attendants fear NZ operators

17:19 AEST Mon Aug 29 2005

AAP

Flight attendants say Australia's aviation safety standards could be undermined by allowing New Zealand operators to compete on our domestic routes.

Australian safety standards require at least one flight attendant for every 36 passengers on board any aircraft, according to the Flight Attendants' Association of Australia.

But under a bill currently under consideration by a Senate transport committee, New Zealand operators with lower safety standards could fly here.

In New Zealand, airlines need only a minimum of one attendant for every 50 seats on the plane.

Earlier this month, every passenger on an Air France flight in Canada survived a catastrophic crash because of the fast work of flight attendants in evacuating the plane.

According to reports at the time, there was at least one flight attendant for every 36 passengers on board the aircraft, which landed in a storm, hurtled off the runway and burst into flames.

It took under two minutes for all 297 passengers and 12 crew on the Airbus A340 to scramble to safety.

The FAAA is worried New Zealand's lower attendant-to-passenger ratio would result in a reduction in Australia's world-class safety standards.

"We've got the highest safety standards in the world for civil aviation," FAAA international division president Steven Reed told AAP.

In New Zealand, a 200-seat plane could fly with just four flight attendants on board, leaving doors unmanned by trained staff, he said.

"I cannot begin to tell you how dangerous that is," he said.

Without the appropriate training, passengers could, for example, open the door onto a possible fire outside the plane, thereby endangering the lives of every person on board.

"In any incident we believe that the more flight attendants you have on board an aircraft, the more likely it is you will have a successful evacuation of all passengers on board," Mr Reed said.

Mr Reed appeared before a Senate inquiry into the Civil Aviation Legislation Amendment (Mutual Recognition with New Zealand) Bill 2005 in Canberra.

The transport committee is due to hand down its report into the legislation on September 5.


©AAP 2005

[Bad Adventures]

You have to laugh at the old codgers in here who think we are still in the 70’s. Sorry old boys times have changed and it’s not just with the airlines. Banks, telcos and most other companies are pushing for more productivity and longer hours. It’s harsh but it’s true. When you’ve got foreign based labour who are willing to work twice as long for half as much companies are going to take advantage of it. The consumer doesn’t care these days who provides the service as long as they get it at a good price. I get calls nearly every night from call centres in Mumbai trying to sell me sh*t. You don’t have to be a rocket science to realise that companies in Australia are taking advantage of cheap off shore labour. At the end of the day Australian labour is comparatively, very expensive and inefficient.

It’s so easy for the old diggers on here who have been flying 30 years to say, vote no for the JFK shuttle. They already have their 3 houses paid off and their children who have left home. They have high bidding power so it doesn’t affect their rosters or their take home pay. For much junior crew who have very poor bidding power, have mortgages and young familles to support, it will have a massive effect on their take home pay. As Pro Golfer points out, the Kiwi’s will be taken off JNB patterns to cover the JFK flying, leaving junior crew to do back to back Joburgs therefore taking a large pay cut.

Now listen here, you old buggers on here who need a walking stick to do a bar service, yes the ones who are complaining about the length of this JFK duty, if you think I give a rats ar*se about you, then you are living in a f**king dream land. My family and their financial well being are my number one priority. It’s my job to support them and I’m quite happy to work a few extra hours doing this shuttle to secure that.

As I’ve said previously if don’t like the way the flying is going leave. Go and drive a cab.

I too will be voting YES, YES, YES, YES to the JFK shuttle.

[Guardian1]

My faith in crew is not misplaced. Finally, the ratbag element is being exposed for what it is.... uninformed, clueless, destructive and woefully ignorant.

It is starting to dawn on crew that the JFK dispensation is about protecting our jobs and ensuring that to the best of our collective ability a signal is sent to QF that we are not dinosaurs and that we don't look forward to extinction.

I'm glad that crew are listening to the FAAA, because the senior leadership of the FAAA knows what its doing and all their actions are meant to protect crew , even the brainless few.

Those few that want to commit suicide can go ahead...... but their stupidity will be exposed at every opportunity in order that the vast bulk of crew are protected.

Its heartening to see cabin crew are understanding the realities that confront us. Its not a matter of liking those realities but it is crucial that we deal with them.

[RedTBar]

Guardian1
This is for you or should I say SR… “TOW- TRUCK....
thanks for your comments mate... I never give up!
I'm also determined to use this forum to correct inaccuracies and to point out nonsense. Too much is at stake to allow ill- informed individuals to mislead our crew.
I might even reveal who I am
Be assured however, what I say in here is 100% correct and accurate ’’

As for Pegasus 747 and Warp57, probably the other 2 of the current faaa leadership. Firstly, I am not one of the previous faaa leadership nor one of their friends, so don’t waste your breath with that accusation.

I would like to ask some questions about the JFK dispensation.

Why is the faaa so interested in siding with the company, in fact why after all the fire and brimstone of last year have they rolled over and capitulated?
When any letters are received from the faaa (then only once in a blue moon), they seem to have been written by the company themselves.

I think there is something wrong with the whole issue of the dispensation. The company has told us that it is to save money on accommodations costs. How exactly is the company saving a lot of money when they are giving crew a minimum of 2 days in LA before and after the JFK sector and up to 85 hours on one trip. So much for saving on accommodation. Then there is the matter of overtime for the whole crew, if on average they have a TOD of 16 hours(not the 14.35 the company says) then you have a considerable cost .I doubt if the company is really saving that much at all, so why do they want a dispensation.

I believe that there is another reason and that is the company wants a dispensation so as to create a precedent. We all know how the company thinks and that you could give them all the dispensations in the world and they would still ask for more. What if there is a lot more to this than just a JFK dispensation and the company has a long range plan to dismantle a lot more of our flying and the faaa through either design or an inability to think that far ahead cannot see this. If you think that a Sin/Drw/Adl/Syd sector sucks, imagine what the company can plan if they have the right to go to 17 hours from the word go.

It is only a matter of time when we will have a/c that can fly for 19 to 20 hours and we might just have handed the company an early Christmas present with a precedent to make the LAX/JFK/LAX sector the norm rather than the exception. I believe that the dispensation opens a can of worms. We all know that the company will argue about fuel prices, unfair competition, doom, gloom...etc…and if we have said we can do this sector once, they will argue we can do it again.

It also worries me that the faaa has confidential discussions with the company.

Guardian1 has told us…
“So please accept that what we say to you and why we do things (like the JFK dispensation) is grounded in logic and reason. It is not always possible to publicly disclose all information we may have for a variety of reasons.

We are also in possession of material and information that you as members would
not have”.

If the faaa has information,why don't you tell us?Just because we don't share your views does not mean you are any more intelligent than we are,let us know the facts so we can make up our own minds

Why does the faaa not inform us by a weekly or fortnightly email or info page on the faaa website what the company wants and asks for and what the faaa response is?

There has to be a complete transparency in the dealings the faaa has with company, they are here to represent us not to dictate to us that they know what is best and to just trust them, why can’t they tell us what is happening?

The company and the faaa want us to break EBA 7 when it is not even 1 year old. It is because of this I believe the faaa should get independent legal advice about the dispensation and its ramifications. Then there has to be a vote

Undoubtedly, SR will tell us that “Mate you have no idea of what you are talking about”
Well, I don’t care what you think of me, I want independent legal advice and a vote...

[tow-truck]

red tbar

Hmm dont know what you mean by your first line in your post, however well written and you make some valid points, this is what this forum should be about.
I have yet to do a shuttle, I have 2 coming up, and then I will make a comment, however I do agree about the precedent, that is a worry.

[qfcsm]

I agree

I have to agree with RedTBar on this one.

I have been flying around 18 years and can clearly see the writing on the wall.

This is not about cost of accommodation. Simple maths says the additional accommodation in LAX plus the overtime do not offset the cost of accommodation in JFK. Please, just think about that for a minute.

This is clearly an exercise in "let's see how far we can go before they break"!

And as for the NZ crew doing all the shuttles... Logistically and financially not sustainable. Oh they might try it for a bid period to smack your naughty hand but it wouldn't last long.

And for those that will vote for the 'money' I understand as my mortgage and family support costs are not dissimilar, however, I will not sell my soul to this distasteful management.