What is it with Americans?
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Flyblue:
I am, I am. You don't look nearly old enough to have the seniority required to request specific routes 
Backpedalling rapidly!
CS
you'll be surprised to know yours truly requests a MAN layover at least once a month..
Backpedalling rapidly!
CS
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Okay guys, after reading your posts, I'll clear this up for you. I fly for an American carrier, (Northwest) and I am American. Regarding the senior flight attendants that you refer to, you are generally correct in you observation that they are not the most pleasant. Some of the ladies began with NWA back in the 40's and 50's. Being that our airline has been in service over 70 years, you are bound to get some of this. Our number one on the seniority list turned 80 this month!
You are correct in your conjecture that seniority rules in our system. They can pick and choose their routes as they please. As for the union comments, this has nothing to do with when they choose to leave. Delta is a non-union carrier, and they have just as many elderly FA's as we do. The union does not entitle them to keep their jobs.
The international routes are generally the most senior because they are worth the most amount of hours in a single trip. Ergo, they try to fly schedules that allow them the most days off. You think the FA's that fly Europe are old, fly over to Tokyo. The minimum seniority level is about 30 years of service!
You are correct in your conjecture that seniority rules in our system. They can pick and choose their routes as they please. As for the union comments, this has nothing to do with when they choose to leave. Delta is a non-union carrier, and they have just as many elderly FA's as we do. The union does not entitle them to keep their jobs.
The international routes are generally the most senior because they are worth the most amount of hours in a single trip. Ergo, they try to fly schedules that allow them the most days off. You think the FA's that fly Europe are old, fly over to Tokyo. The minimum seniority level is about 30 years of service!
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nwaflygirl, you are right about the Tokyo route; we share the hotel there, and I must admit to having been truly flabbergasted at the age of the NW FAs.
Since we also share a crew centre in AMS, we see a lot of you guys every day and without fail, there are comments about the age of the FAs. Would you answer a question for me please?
Common wisdom in our company has it that the reason you have so many aged FAs is as follows:
Instead of having pension money deducted from their wages and saved up for retirement by the company, NW FAs get the money in their pocket and are supposed to plan thier own retirement fund.
When they don't do that, they can not afford to retire, hence the oldies......
Fact or rumour?
And since I have you here, another mystery that always puzzles us; why do you guys seem to carry all your luggage with you on board? We have crew suitcases and are allowed a very limited amount of hand luggage. You guys seem to have to carry everything yourselves like pack mules. We are always wondering why that is so, and where on earth you stow it al once you get on the aircraft?
Yours,
Mystified from AMS
Since we also share a crew centre in AMS, we see a lot of you guys every day and without fail, there are comments about the age of the FAs. Would you answer a question for me please?
Common wisdom in our company has it that the reason you have so many aged FAs is as follows:
Instead of having pension money deducted from their wages and saved up for retirement by the company, NW FAs get the money in their pocket and are supposed to plan thier own retirement fund.
When they don't do that, they can not afford to retire, hence the oldies......
Fact or rumour?
And since I have you here, another mystery that always puzzles us; why do you guys seem to carry all your luggage with you on board? We have crew suitcases and are allowed a very limited amount of hand luggage. You guys seem to have to carry everything yourselves like pack mules. We are always wondering why that is so, and where on earth you stow it al once you get on the aircraft?
Yours,
Mystified from AMS
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nwaglygirl
Absolutely ..... remember going to NRT a few years ago and seeing about 12 wheelchairs waiting at the top of the jetty. I thought they were for the passengers, but then the grey wrinklies in NW uniforms came up the jetty and I realised that the wheelchairs were for the cabin crew
Apparently the noise of the crochet needles from the galleys keep the first/business class passengers awake at night.
You think the FA's that fly Europe are old, fly over to Tokyo. The minimum seniority level is about 30 years of service!
Apparently the noise of the crochet needles from the galleys keep the first/business class passengers awake at night.
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Hey all, in response to your questions-
I'll try to cover it all, If I miss any let me know. First of all the luggage thing. We have to carry all our luggage with us. We are always curious as to what you do with yours? The reason it seems like some have so much is that most people at NWA are commuters. They don't live at base. Say they have a 3 day AMS trip, they leave home (for example Tampa), fly in the night before, get a hotel room, report for the trip the next day, work the trip, and when they return, they have to get another hotel room or go to their crash pad to report for another trip the next day. So, in essence, they have to pack for eight days sometimes. As for stowing all the luggage, most of our European routes are on the A330, and this aircraft has tons of crew luggage space. Even, on the DC-10, there is always ample space. We are also not restricted as to where we stow it. The only thing the company asks of us, is that we please don't use the WBC luggage space. But of course, some still do.
To address the pension issue: The main reason that many don't retire is this: Where else can you work 9 days a month, make that kind of money and still enjoy excellent health care benefits? Once they retire, the pension is minimal, most of these women and men did not plan for retirement, and the only perk they retain is lifetime travel passes. Our pension program was only brought to satisfactory levels (85% increase) with our last contract. Many feel that is is still substandard. I suppose fourty or so years ago when these people started flying, there was no such thing as a 401K (our retirement program), and they failed to plan accordingly. Also, a lot of them are just stubborn.
So, in a sense, they are stuck working, beacuse they can't afford not to. This breeds some of the contempt. And let me tell you, they sure are downright nasty to those of us us that are younger! You think they treat the passengers poorly! They've got it easy! I could go on forever with stories, but I've rambled long enough!
Any further questions, I'll be happy to answer. Fire away! I do an awful lot of AMS and NRT, I'll have to keep my eyes open for you guys! I'm the young, thin, cute blonde that looks really out of place! HaHa Donna
I'll try to cover it all, If I miss any let me know. First of all the luggage thing. We have to carry all our luggage with us. We are always curious as to what you do with yours? The reason it seems like some have so much is that most people at NWA are commuters. They don't live at base. Say they have a 3 day AMS trip, they leave home (for example Tampa), fly in the night before, get a hotel room, report for the trip the next day, work the trip, and when they return, they have to get another hotel room or go to their crash pad to report for another trip the next day. So, in essence, they have to pack for eight days sometimes. As for stowing all the luggage, most of our European routes are on the A330, and this aircraft has tons of crew luggage space. Even, on the DC-10, there is always ample space. We are also not restricted as to where we stow it. The only thing the company asks of us, is that we please don't use the WBC luggage space. But of course, some still do.
To address the pension issue: The main reason that many don't retire is this: Where else can you work 9 days a month, make that kind of money and still enjoy excellent health care benefits? Once they retire, the pension is minimal, most of these women and men did not plan for retirement, and the only perk they retain is lifetime travel passes. Our pension program was only brought to satisfactory levels (85% increase) with our last contract. Many feel that is is still substandard. I suppose fourty or so years ago when these people started flying, there was no such thing as a 401K (our retirement program), and they failed to plan accordingly. Also, a lot of them are just stubborn.
So, in a sense, they are stuck working, beacuse they can't afford not to. This breeds some of the contempt. And let me tell you, they sure are downright nasty to those of us us that are younger! You think they treat the passengers poorly! They've got it easy! I could go on forever with stories, but I've rambled long enough!
Any further questions, I'll be happy to answer. Fire away! I do an awful lot of AMS and NRT, I'll have to keep my eyes open for you guys! I'm the young, thin, cute blonde that looks really out of place! HaHa Donna
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Donna,
here in AF on LH routes we carry our luggage to the plane, then there is a crew container where we put our luggage and is sealed and loaded into the aircraft as soon as we are done. We then take our luggage back from the container on the tarmac at destination (it's usually the first to be offloaded). On SH and MH we can take our luggage on board, tagged with a crew tag for security reasons.
Since we have lots of commuters too, the company provide a free left luggage service inside company building. Commuters leave excess luggage there when they depart for a flight and take it back when they return to base (max time 1 month). It's especially useful during stand bys, when you can be called for a week (and then will need a BIG case) or just for the day (NO luggage ).
Our "old things" retire between 50 and 55 (max age) and are not always happy to. It's also a waste if you ask me, because some at 55 are in the prime of age (but it's also true that I can't see how you could justify the safety role for a 70+ years old to be on board. Our annual medical check rules are too strict anyway, I don't think they'd pass it. And if you don't pass it, no licence) but some are quite happy and surely entitled to enjoy some time living their life the way the like after a lifetime of work.
here in AF on LH routes we carry our luggage to the plane, then there is a crew container where we put our luggage and is sealed and loaded into the aircraft as soon as we are done. We then take our luggage back from the container on the tarmac at destination (it's usually the first to be offloaded). On SH and MH we can take our luggage on board, tagged with a crew tag for security reasons.
Since we have lots of commuters too, the company provide a free left luggage service inside company building. Commuters leave excess luggage there when they depart for a flight and take it back when they return to base (max time 1 month). It's especially useful during stand bys, when you can be called for a week (and then will need a BIG case) or just for the day (NO luggage
).Our "old things" retire between 50 and 55 (max age) and are not always happy to. It's also a waste if you ask me, because some at 55 are in the prime of age (but it's also true that I can't see how you could justify the safety role for a 70+ years old to be on board. Our annual medical check rules are too strict anyway, I don't think they'd pass it. And if you don't pass it, no licence) but some are quite happy and surely entitled to enjoy some time living their life the way the like after a lifetime of work.
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Thanks for the reply, it's really interesting to see what SOP is for everyone else. Your way certainly seems like it would be much easier-dump the stuff off and forget it!! Again, nice chatting with all of you, talk to ya soon. Donna
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From a pax point of view, I find it very sad that American airlines tend to put their oldest FA's on long-haul. Apparently these airlines do not understand that FA's are the faces of the company in the view of most pax. Ask a psychologist: You would learn that people will associate the age and looks of the FA's with the age and safety of the aircraft, and they will also associate the FA's age with the level of modernity of the whole carrrier. This is extremely bad advertising.
I am not saying that I want to see G-strings and nice breast clefts, but being served by grannies does not really make it attractive to choose an American carrier.
I flew FRA-DFW on American last Sunday, and the FA's were at least 50+. Very disturbing, in my mind.
I am not saying that I want to see G-strings and nice breast clefts, but being served by grannies does not really make it attractive to choose an American carrier.
I flew FRA-DFW on American last Sunday, and the FA's were at least 50+. Very disturbing, in my mind.
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I dont really think that age is a problem if they can do the job,
However every longhaul flight I have done with an American carrier (mostly to Japan) has been staffed by large, lazy ladies. Of the elderly persuasion.
Several times one or more of the FAs have been so large that when they are in the aisle there is no way past them. I have oft wondered if this would be a safety hazard.
I have found them to be slow, and tempermental. The whole flight seemed as if they were doing us the favour and we (the customer) were lucky to be there and receive even the bare minumum of service.
The domestic crews seem to be a lot more upbeat, some even seem to enjoy their job!!
However every longhaul flight I have done with an American carrier (mostly to Japan) has been staffed by large, lazy ladies. Of the elderly persuasion.
Several times one or more of the FAs have been so large that when they are in the aisle there is no way past them. I have oft wondered if this would be a safety hazard.
I have found them to be slow, and tempermental. The whole flight seemed as if they were doing us the favour and we (the customer) were lucky to be there and receive even the bare minumum of service.
The domestic crews seem to be a lot more upbeat, some even seem to enjoy their job!!
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if their age becomes a safety concern then they shouldn't be flying. If they can pass their EP's then great, however if they are that senior that they never fly on particular aircraft because of the trips they choose, then that also becomes a safety concern as they're not familiar with the aircraft, looking at it out of a manual isn't good enough.
A lot of crew, not just American crew take their jobs for granted and don't realise how good they have it! Maybe they should try doing a 12 hour shift in a factory and then see how good being a F/A is!
There's something to think about.......................
Oz
ps- it really isn't that hard to smile, infact, its proven that its actually harder to frown!
A lot of crew, not just American crew take their jobs for granted and don't realise how good they have it! Maybe they should try doing a 12 hour shift in a factory and then see how good being a F/A is!
There's something to think about.......................
Oz
ps- it really isn't that hard to smile, infact, its proven that its actually harder to frown!
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See I don't care how old the F/As are.... it comes down to attitude as a pax I've experienced some of the worst service (as per discribed above) and, conversley had some of the best laughs on flights staffed by errr old gorgons/more experienced F/As (delete as appropriate).
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What I found when I flew to the USA in October with United and was speaking to some of the gals down the back, was that a lot of the people of eldest seniority come from the days when you had to be single to be a hostess, and as soon as you got married you were asked to leave the company.
When these rules were uplifted many came back, but many have lived out the years of hostesses, stewardesses and now flight attendants, and never got married, so flying is pretty much their life. As long as those crew members are capable (and they must be to still be flying) perform all the service & more importantly safety features of being a flight attendant, they can keep on flying.
Another area perhaps is the turmoil over pensions at US airlines. As many airlines try to get around the huge costs of pensions for the US carriers, many flight attendants have the incentive to keep flying & keep earning!
Just my $0.02
When these rules were uplifted many came back, but many have lived out the years of hostesses, stewardesses and now flight attendants, and never got married, so flying is pretty much their life. As long as those crew members are capable (and they must be to still be flying) perform all the service & more importantly safety features of being a flight attendant, they can keep on flying.
Another area perhaps is the turmoil over pensions at US airlines. As many airlines try to get around the huge costs of pensions for the US carriers, many flight attendants have the incentive to keep flying & keep earning!
Just my $0.02
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I don't think its ageist to expect your crew to be able to open the door should the power assist fail in an emergency, nor for them to be able to hold a slide if necessary. 70 year old crew is simply unsafe. This is a case of political correctness gone loopy. By the same rational it simply isn't safe to have crew who are so obese that they can not fit into a crew seat and can barely squeeze down the aisle, let alone bend over to engage a girt bar on a 737...
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To be honest I believe that we should address the opposite side of the age and size of F.A.s issue. While I have not ridden the airlines that much I have on occasion been forced to use airlines for transportation, however, I have shared hotels all over the world with airline crews.
I have seen F.A.s so small and petite I can’t imagine how on earth they could possibly open a cabin door, especially if the aircraft is not in it’s normal upright position, let alone remove an emergency exit window and chuck it out the opening. (Those windows are heavy, trust me.) Now I’m saying they cannot perform these task, it is just rather hard to believe that they are capable of such tasks.
On the other hand my sister-in-law was a stewardess (her words, to be almost exact, was “I am not a fecking Flight Attendant, I’m a goddamn stewardess, I started out as a stewardess and I will retire as a goddamn stewardess. Don’t ever call me a fecking Flight Attendant!” Fecking was not the word she used, if you get my drift.) for American Airlines based at DFW. She retired on her 70th birthday. Not only could she handle the doors and emergency exits, but she could probably toss out anybody that was too slow getting out of the airplane. She was number 1 in seniority domestic and I believe 3or 4 international when she retired. So what I am saying is don’t dismiss the very experienced F.A. out of hand just because of their age.
Now on the rudeness issue I can’t really answer that question. It does seem like the rudeness is more prevalent on the Major International Air Carriers compared to Domestic Carriers such as Southwest. However, when one looks at the pay cuts, the loss of retirement and the possibility of losing their jobs that Flight Attendants are facing on some airlines, such as Delta and United, it is not hard to understand the negative attitudes of some of the crews, including the cockpit crew.
I have seen F.A.s so small and petite I can’t imagine how on earth they could possibly open a cabin door, especially if the aircraft is not in it’s normal upright position, let alone remove an emergency exit window and chuck it out the opening. (Those windows are heavy, trust me.) Now I’m saying they cannot perform these task, it is just rather hard to believe that they are capable of such tasks.
On the other hand my sister-in-law was a stewardess (her words, to be almost exact, was “I am not a fecking Flight Attendant, I’m a goddamn stewardess, I started out as a stewardess and I will retire as a goddamn stewardess. Don’t ever call me a fecking Flight Attendant!” Fecking was not the word she used, if you get my drift.) for American Airlines based at DFW. She retired on her 70th birthday. Not only could she handle the doors and emergency exits, but she could probably toss out anybody that was too slow getting out of the airplane. She was number 1 in seniority domestic and I believe 3or 4 international when she retired. So what I am saying is don’t dismiss the very experienced F.A. out of hand just because of their age.
Now on the rudeness issue I can’t really answer that question. It does seem like the rudeness is more prevalent on the Major International Air Carriers compared to Domestic Carriers such as Southwest. However, when one looks at the pay cuts, the loss of retirement and the possibility of losing their jobs that Flight Attendants are facing on some airlines, such as Delta and United, it is not hard to understand the negative attitudes of some of the crews, including the cockpit crew.
