Are digital cameras on your banned-on-takeoff/landing list?
Not enough $$$ ...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 317
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are digital cameras on your banned-on-takeoff/landing list?
Okay, I've just dropped in from another PPRuNe area because I had a little frustration recently that I thought might spark some discussion here.
I had my digital still (ie not digital video ) camera out while descending into Cairns on Jetstar last weekend (which I must say the whole flight was a very pleasant experience overall). The FA came up and said "I'm sorry sir but I'm going to have to ask you to turn that off until we've landed".
Okay.
The card in the seat pocket lists the things that have to switched off, and it includes video cameras, but no mention of still cameras. I've never been asked before to turn off a digital camera, and there are the same batteries and similar electronics in my SLR manually-operated camera, which I wonder if I would have been challenged about.
So I raised this with someone else who travels frequently (I don't), and she said she's had similar frustrations with cabin crew, and had the same feelings as I did - that a digital still camera should be allowed to be used on descent and takeoff.
So what's your take on this? Is it peculiar to Australia? Those of you operating in US, Europe, do you have the same restrictions? Is this something that cabin crew are instructed in their training to include in the "shouldn't-be-turned-on" list, or are FA's just making it up as they go along?
Thanks for your time,
wishtobflying
Brisbane, Australia
I had my digital still (ie not digital video ) camera out while descending into Cairns on Jetstar last weekend (which I must say the whole flight was a very pleasant experience overall). The FA came up and said "I'm sorry sir but I'm going to have to ask you to turn that off until we've landed".
Okay.
The card in the seat pocket lists the things that have to switched off, and it includes video cameras, but no mention of still cameras. I've never been asked before to turn off a digital camera, and there are the same batteries and similar electronics in my SLR manually-operated camera, which I wonder if I would have been challenged about.
So I raised this with someone else who travels frequently (I don't), and she said she's had similar frustrations with cabin crew, and had the same feelings as I did - that a digital still camera should be allowed to be used on descent and takeoff.
So what's your take on this? Is it peculiar to Australia? Those of you operating in US, Europe, do you have the same restrictions? Is this something that cabin crew are instructed in their training to include in the "shouldn't-be-turned-on" list, or are FA's just making it up as they go along?
Thanks for your time,
wishtobflying
Brisbane, Australia
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Age: 64
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I suppose that a digital camera could be construed as an "electronic device" in which case most airlines (at least those that I fly with) ask that they be switched off when the seatbelt sign comes on again. That also includes my Palm for instance.
Moderator
Join Date: Feb 1998
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Your personal electronic equipment may be used on this flight, as long as it does not have an antenna. All personal electroninc equipment must be switched off and stowed during take off and landing and whenever the fasten seat belt sign is on.
My quote above is what we have to enforce in our European company.
Wishtobflying, if you're interested in a bit more background info, do a search. There have been some fascinating threads on various fora about the subject of EMI and how (un)realistic the current rules are.
On a more practical note, if you know that you will want to take pictures during landing, ask the FAs beforehand, and politely suggest that they ask the Captain if he can make an exeption to the rule. Had a camera crew day before yesterday who did just that. I passed their request to the captain and she decided that yes he could use his professional video camera to film the landing.
FAs do not have the formal authority to grant an exeption to a safety rule. During the approach FAs are under time press to get the cabin 'ready' and the pilots have their hands and heads full with getting the aircraft properly configured & safely on the ground.
All in all not the right time to start considering exeptions to a safety rule.
Hope this helps.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Somewhere probing
Posts: 301
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Get real ! What an absolute load of cobblers; wherein I must remember this the next time I'm on the approach into, say, Innsbruck (see pics below)..... indeed, maybe people should also turn off hearing aids, and heart pacemakers, etc. ?! 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: all over the shop
Posts: 986
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Get real ! What an absolute load of cobblers; wherein I must remember this the next time I'm on the approach into, say, Innsbruck (see pics below)..... indeed, maybe people should also turn off hearing aids, and heart pacemakers, etc. ?!
), its difficult to explain/justify to average Joe Pax the difference between say a Digital Still camera and for eg a Laptop or Discman - as far as I am concerned, a Digi Still camera does contain computer components in it - albeit on a smaller scale. Is there anyone out there with the technical knowledge who could perhaps enlighten us on this topic?
all battery operated equipment is supposed to be switched off for both take off and landing. - Listen to the cabin crews announcements!
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: behind the lens
Posts: 383
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just take a look at airliners.net and see just how many pilots are using their digitals on the approach. The question will surely come concerning their ability to monitor cockpit proceedings and taking pics.
Personally, I can take pics in fractions of seconds and still be aware of my surroundings............hmm
Personally, I can take pics in fractions of seconds and still be aware of my surroundings............hmm
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Crufts
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bl**dy electronic devices are the bane of my life working in the Cabin, usually because of the smartarses with their little toys (not you wishtobflying - you were considerate enough to oblige). Here's the basics for the more challenged wannabe techies out there.
Different national legislative bodies apply different policies with regard to the use of electronic equipment: Further, within each nation, individual airlines then apply variations to that policy. Some policies are more stringent than others.
Cabin Crew are hired by airlines and specifically charged with effecting and policing the safety policies of both their employer and the national legislative body. They have no choice in the matter, and are not given the training or leeway to engage in a technical conversation with a customer about whether or not a phone is in "Flight" mode, a digital camera is an "electronic device" a laptop has or has not got a wireless card enabled or a Blueberry/Blackberry thing is or is not a transmission device.
If a customer has an issue with the use of an electronic device in flight, then it is up to them to initiate a dialogue with either the national legislative body or the airline concerned: It is plainly unreasonable to remonstrate with a Cabin Crew member who has no responsibility for, nor ability to influence the applicable legislation, and is simply attempting to carry out the safety duties required of them!. There is also the possibility that the level of technical knowledge of the customer, whilst exceeding that of the Cabin Crew member is still incorrect or inadequate: In other words, they may be plain wrong, and in the process, may be affecting the safe operation of the flight.
Devils Advocate I'm surprised at your attitude, given that under similar circumstances, one of your Crew members would have been acting in a manner designed to support you in your efforts to operate the flight safely, whether or not his/her efforts were misguided. If you feel that Crew do not correctly interpret the legislation, then it would be appropriate to contact the training and/or flight safety departments, rather than belittling their efforts on your behalf here.
Finally, please remember the intention behind a request from Cabin Crew of this kind. It is not an intent to abuse or incconvenience - it's not personal: It is simply somebody trying to do their job as best they can, in maintaining safety. You may disagree with what you are asked to do, but surely cannot disagree with the intention.
(Once again, this is not directed at wishtobflying who appears to have behaved in an exemplary fashion.)
Different national legislative bodies apply different policies with regard to the use of electronic equipment: Further, within each nation, individual airlines then apply variations to that policy. Some policies are more stringent than others.
Cabin Crew are hired by airlines and specifically charged with effecting and policing the safety policies of both their employer and the national legislative body. They have no choice in the matter, and are not given the training or leeway to engage in a technical conversation with a customer about whether or not a phone is in "Flight" mode, a digital camera is an "electronic device" a laptop has or has not got a wireless card enabled or a Blueberry/Blackberry thing is or is not a transmission device.
If a customer has an issue with the use of an electronic device in flight, then it is up to them to initiate a dialogue with either the national legislative body or the airline concerned: It is plainly unreasonable to remonstrate with a Cabin Crew member who has no responsibility for, nor ability to influence the applicable legislation, and is simply attempting to carry out the safety duties required of them!. There is also the possibility that the level of technical knowledge of the customer, whilst exceeding that of the Cabin Crew member is still incorrect or inadequate: In other words, they may be plain wrong, and in the process, may be affecting the safe operation of the flight.
Devils Advocate I'm surprised at your attitude, given that under similar circumstances, one of your Crew members would have been acting in a manner designed to support you in your efforts to operate the flight safely, whether or not his/her efforts were misguided. If you feel that Crew do not correctly interpret the legislation, then it would be appropriate to contact the training and/or flight safety departments, rather than belittling their efforts on your behalf here.
Finally, please remember the intention behind a request from Cabin Crew of this kind. It is not an intent to abuse or incconvenience - it's not personal: It is simply somebody trying to do their job as best they can, in maintaining safety. You may disagree with what you are asked to do, but surely cannot disagree with the intention.
(Once again, this is not directed at wishtobflying who appears to have behaved in an exemplary fashion.)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
whose a bad tempered little Devil then?Some purty lill stewardess refused to kiss your b*tt last nite on the way to Salzburg mr advocate?What about them pictures then,what do they proof?Apart from the fact that with a little more practice you will probably manage to take them without including the cockpit windowframe?so you took 2 snaps while the captain was flying,gee whiz what a daredevil thing to do Doesn't have much to do with wishtobflyings question though does it?what a pilot can do in the cockpit has sweet nothing to do with what a passenger can do in the cabin,so your post is not relevant.It's very rude though.
He asks abot SOPs in US and EU,some people gives an answer abt what is normal where they work.Then you write a one line rant that is as relevant as a bike to a fish.
wishtobflying the self proclaimed757 driver flashing his amateur snaps here is not someone to listen to,believe me most pilots have more sense then him.You want to take a picture during landing next time,ask the stewardesses in good time and you might get lucky.EU SOPs are as described by Flapsfourty and Dogsearsup by the way.
Doesn't have much to do with wishtobflyings question though does it?what a pilot can do in the cockpit has sweet nothing to do with what a passenger can do in the cabin,so your post is not relevant.It's very rude though.He asks abot SOPs in US and EU,some people gives an answer abt what is normal where they work.Then you write a one line rant that is as relevant as a bike to a fish.
wishtobflying the self proclaimed757 driver flashing his amateur snaps here is not someone to listen to,believe me most pilots have more sense then him.You want to take a picture during landing next time,ask the stewardesses in good time and you might get lucky.EU SOPs are as described by Flapsfourty and Dogsearsup by the way.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Perth WA
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can understand everybodies point of view in this thread. For me personally, I know that the chance of an electronic device interfering with anything onboard the aircraft is very unlikely. however, as cabin crew we have been trained to ensure that these devices are switched off as we MUST follow regulation. Simple as that!
But I also see things from another perspective. Take off and landing are the critical phases of flight. No question. So isn't it important that for EVERYONE on board, there should be no distractions, so if anything should happen - SOMEONE will be the first to notice. Its a little hard to explain what I mean - so for example only...imagine if there was an engine fire on take-off but the majority of the cabin had their window blinds closed, could the delayed reaction by crew or passengers to alert the flight deck be fatal? Same goes for electronic devices such as dvd players, cameras, cd players, laptops? If everybody was distracted visually or by noise and the same incident happened - what would be the outcome. Same for the safety demo. I know people have seen it a thousand times, but if NO ONE watched it and the worst happened - who would be there first to get out of the aircraft?? hmmm..something to think on....
once again - only my personal opinion through personal experience.
craic1510
But I also see things from another perspective. Take off and landing are the critical phases of flight. No question. So isn't it important that for EVERYONE on board, there should be no distractions, so if anything should happen - SOMEONE will be the first to notice. Its a little hard to explain what I mean - so for example only...imagine if there was an engine fire on take-off but the majority of the cabin had their window blinds closed, could the delayed reaction by crew or passengers to alert the flight deck be fatal? Same goes for electronic devices such as dvd players, cameras, cd players, laptops? If everybody was distracted visually or by noise and the same incident happened - what would be the outcome. Same for the safety demo. I know people have seen it a thousand times, but if NO ONE watched it and the worst happened - who would be there first to get out of the aircraft?? hmmm..something to think on....
once again - only my personal opinion through personal experience.
craic1510
Not enough $$$ ...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 317
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Confession time - I didn't actually do the "right thing". I waited until she was sitting down and then just held the camera to the window and kept snapping away. It wasn't a distraction to anyone else, as it makes no noise and I wasn't holding it up to my eye, but that's beside the point isn't it. I apologise in advance, so please don't go too much into the "you naughty boy" routine.
I accept that you have your training though, and there are rules to be followed. If I'd been belligerant and vocal about it, I probably would have had someone in a different uniform waiting in Cairns to give me the honour of being the first person off the flight, but as far as the FA was concerned she'd done her job and was none the wiser.
The screaming kids and party of 11 and wheelchair party kept the cabin crew busy enough as it was.
I shall keep in mind the "ask first" principle next time, but now knowing what the expected response will be from the cabin crew, I'll probably just wait until they've done their final walk-through and pull the camera out after they're strapped in. After all, how do you think those pictures you find on the internet of things happening on landing or takeoff get there?
(ducks for cover)
Cheers,
wishtobflying
I accept that you have your training though, and there are rules to be followed. If I'd been belligerant and vocal about it, I probably would have had someone in a different uniform waiting in Cairns to give me the honour of being the first person off the flight, but as far as the FA was concerned she'd done her job and was none the wiser.
The screaming kids and party of 11 and wheelchair party kept the cabin crew busy enough as it was.
I shall keep in mind the "ask first" principle next time, but now knowing what the expected response will be from the cabin crew, I'll probably just wait until they've done their final walk-through and pull the camera out after they're strapped in. After all, how do you think those pictures you find on the internet of things happening on landing or takeoff get there?
(ducks for cover)
Cheers,
wishtobflying
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: 40N, 80W
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While the following incident is probably not relevant to any possible interference with aircraft systems, it surprised me at the time.
After an Enigma coding machine was stolen from Bletchley Park in April, 2000, a anti-theft system was installed to protect the remaining coding machines.
I was one of group touring the museum a couple of years ago during which the guide warned us not to take photos with digital cameras as it was liable to set off the alarm system. There was no caution associated with film cameras or flash photography, only with digital cameras. Though tempted, I did not test to see if the alarm system was really that sensitive.
The alarm system would have been only inches from the camera so it seems plausible to me that it could have been triggered sometimes.
After an Enigma coding machine was stolen from Bletchley Park in April, 2000, a anti-theft system was installed to protect the remaining coding machines.
I was one of group touring the museum a couple of years ago during which the guide warned us not to take photos with digital cameras as it was liable to set off the alarm system. There was no caution associated with film cameras or flash photography, only with digital cameras. Though tempted, I did not test to see if the alarm system was really that sensitive.
The alarm system would have been only inches from the camera so it seems plausible to me that it could have been triggered sometimes.
Last edited by PickyPerkins; 20th Nov 2004 at 14:44.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=wowser
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This week I was paxing fro A to B. The FA came up and said,
"Eckthcuthe me Thir, but you'll have to thwitch off that devithe now, pleathe." I didn't mind the look of exasperation all that much as I've seen it aimed around the cabin so many times over the years. Anyway I thwitched it off (my MP3 player) but left the ear phones in as I was busy reading and couldn't be bothered putting them away. Also, they deadened the inevitable PA cr@p about UNICEF or preferred hotels or whatever.
So anyway he comes back past again, sees the ear plugs still in and gets carried away with huffing and puffing about insisting I "thwitch" off that devithe, NOW". I started laughing and told him it WAS off but the fact that the earphones were still in my ears was too much for his pea-brain to compute. He went and told on me to the Chief Sandwiche Maker who came over. I told her the same story and got the same confused indignation.
The moronic stupidity was breath-taking.
Anyway the whole point of the story is that FAs somertimes don't have a clue about the use of PEDs, beyond their rudimentary training. They, quite rightly, simply recite the "rules" they've been taught, adding hysteria if necessary, or even the threat of an Anti-Terrorist Squad reception, to force the point.
I use my phone all the time.
"Eckthcuthe me Thir, but you'll have to thwitch off that devithe now, pleathe." I didn't mind the look of exasperation all that much as I've seen it aimed around the cabin so many times over the years. Anyway I thwitched it off (my MP3 player) but left the ear phones in as I was busy reading and couldn't be bothered putting them away. Also, they deadened the inevitable PA cr@p about UNICEF or preferred hotels or whatever.
So anyway he comes back past again, sees the ear plugs still in and gets carried away with huffing and puffing about insisting I "thwitch" off that devithe, NOW". I started laughing and told him it WAS off but the fact that the earphones were still in my ears was too much for his pea-brain to compute. He went and told on me to the Chief Sandwiche Maker who came over. I told her the same story and got the same confused indignation.
The moronic stupidity was breath-taking.
Anyway the whole point of the story is that FAs somertimes don't have a clue about the use of PEDs, beyond their rudimentary training. They, quite rightly, simply recite the "rules" they've been taught, adding hysteria if necessary, or even the threat of an Anti-Terrorist Squad reception, to force the point.
I use my phone all the time.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Costa Del Solent
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dogs Ears Up - I coulden't put it any better myself.
I think a lot of people need reminding that cabin crew are on board primarily for passenger's safety, not just to 'make the sandwiches' as someone rudely put it.
Our particular company's policy is that "Mobile telephones must remain switched off, but if you wish to use other portable electronic equipment, please do so providing the seat belt sign is not illuminated".
I do however draw the line at cameras. These, I have been advised, are not a problem. Certainly with high-energy emission devices like laptops, there are no two ways about it.
I am appalled at One Ball's comments. The reason that your headphones have to be removed during take-off/landing is incase the cabin has to be evacuated in an emergency situation. If you can't hear the evacuation call then you will most likely impede someone elses evacuation of the a/c while you sit there wondering what the hell is going on! It's not rocket science.
As for using a phone on board, this is a breach of not only the Air Navigation Order but also your mobile phone contract. The high-energy emissions from mobile phones (which are still periodically emitted even if a call is not being made) can interfere with electronic fly-by-wire systems and could possibly cause temporary loss of control of the a/c.
Think about the interference from a mobile phone when it is making/receiving a call next to a radio that you hear. The sensitive a/c fly-by-wire systems are being subject to this same interference periodically when your phone is left on.
Hopefully this sheds some light on the issue.
I think a lot of people need reminding that cabin crew are on board primarily for passenger's safety, not just to 'make the sandwiches' as someone rudely put it.
Our particular company's policy is that "Mobile telephones must remain switched off, but if you wish to use other portable electronic equipment, please do so providing the seat belt sign is not illuminated".
I do however draw the line at cameras. These, I have been advised, are not a problem. Certainly with high-energy emission devices like laptops, there are no two ways about it.
I am appalled at One Ball's comments. The reason that your headphones have to be removed during take-off/landing is incase the cabin has to be evacuated in an emergency situation. If you can't hear the evacuation call then you will most likely impede someone elses evacuation of the a/c while you sit there wondering what the hell is going on! It's not rocket science.
As for using a phone on board, this is a breach of not only the Air Navigation Order but also your mobile phone contract. The high-energy emissions from mobile phones (which are still periodically emitted even if a call is not being made) can interfere with electronic fly-by-wire systems and could possibly cause temporary loss of control of the a/c.
Think about the interference from a mobile phone when it is making/receiving a call next to a radio that you hear. The sensitive a/c fly-by-wire systems are being subject to this same interference periodically when your phone is left on.
Hopefully this sheds some light on the issue.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Age: 64
Posts: 3,586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Trislander
one ball's post is clearly designed to offend, or at best is careless of who it offends. I was temped to delete it for these reasons, but on second thoughts, better to leave it in place so that we can all reach our own conclusions as to his behaviour and manners, and remember them when we assess future posts of his (or hers).
I'm sure most Crew have met him before on a flight, many times - the face is different each time, but the rest is always the same.
one ball's post is clearly designed to offend, or at best is careless of who it offends. I was temped to delete it for these reasons, but on second thoughts, better to leave it in place so that we can all reach our own conclusions as to his behaviour and manners, and remember them when we assess future posts of his (or hers).
I'm sure most Crew have met him before on a flight, many times - the face is different each time, but the rest is always the same.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: LGW
Posts: 387
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
odd ball, you better no be using your phone on any of my flights cause i will make sure the authorities come down on you like a ton of bricks. Already had 2 jail terms imposed on pax on my flights, so can and will quite happily do another one.
Grow up and use your head m8. You have your earphones still in your ears, how are the crew to tell you have them switched off????????
you behaved like a tosser
p.s if you honestly think that the crew sit up the back and make the sandwiches - what planet are you on???
Grow up and use your head m8. You have your earphones still in your ears, how are the crew to tell you have them switched off????????
you behaved like a tosser
p.s if you honestly think that the crew sit up the back and make the sandwiches - what planet are you on???
CC Top
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Wild blue yonder
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One ball, from when you signed up for PPRuNe:
I agree, through your use of this service, that I will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law.
I agree, through your use of this service, that I will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law.