QF Low Cost Carrier
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Chicago
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Interesting theory, URD, one division of QF Mainline would certainly make $ense.
However, IMHO going for a lower/cheaper base than Impulse would be a waste of time for QF - certainly from a long term/safety point of view. (Lets not forget that Impulse is infact a cheaper base than Virgin.) With substandard wages comes poor morale, poor services, and (god forbid) even poor standards with regards to safety. All of that spells jets dropping out of the sky; which = no pax, which = no profit AT ALL.
Sounds harsh, but it certainly could be a reality they would have to face.
Basically, they just couldnt go too cheap. In the end it would all come back to bite them on the bum. Not Rocket Science, just common sense. But, hey, I am not a GREEDY Board Member/Major Shareholder. So what would I know about what is good for the long term of the QF Business!
However, IMHO going for a lower/cheaper base than Impulse would be a waste of time for QF - certainly from a long term/safety point of view. (Lets not forget that Impulse is infact a cheaper base than Virgin.) With substandard wages comes poor morale, poor services, and (god forbid) even poor standards with regards to safety. All of that spells jets dropping out of the sky; which = no pax, which = no profit AT ALL.
Sounds harsh, but it certainly could be a reality they would have to face.
Basically, they just couldnt go too cheap. In the end it would all come back to bite them on the bum. Not Rocket Science, just common sense. But, hey, I am not a GREEDY Board Member/Major Shareholder. So what would I know about what is good for the long term of the QF Business!
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: SYD, AU
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Qwannas .... its all relative mate
I (personally) would consider Impulse to be substandard wages (no offence!). Yet I doubt Impulse crew have poor morale, poor service or poor safety.
People would do this job for minimum wage, and as long as the company they work for looks after their morale, their crew will be great on low wages!
Its funny, when it all boils down to it, it isnt what people get paid that creates good morale/service/enthusiasm. Surveys show that $$$ is a the main motivation factor in less than 10% of workers. Its all about how the company treats their employees. Most QF longhaul crew would earn well in excess of $60,000 a year, alot even break the $100,000 barrier. yet morale is very low with us. Thats kinda where QF mainline has gone wrong - they think good wages must equate to happy crew. And the wages are fantastic, yet a lot of crew are unhappy, - it's all about how people perceive they are treated by their company, most QF cabin crew feel they have no respect from their management.
The relationship between QF Longahul crew and their management is rarely anything but strained ( I believe, mostly due to ' innacurate perceptions' ).
If the new LCC treats their crew well, they will do well----> no matter what they pay their staff
I (personally) would consider Impulse to be substandard wages (no offence!). Yet I doubt Impulse crew have poor morale, poor service or poor safety.
People would do this job for minimum wage, and as long as the company they work for looks after their morale, their crew will be great on low wages!
Its funny, when it all boils down to it, it isnt what people get paid that creates good morale/service/enthusiasm. Surveys show that $$$ is a the main motivation factor in less than 10% of workers. Its all about how the company treats their employees. Most QF longhaul crew would earn well in excess of $60,000 a year, alot even break the $100,000 barrier. yet morale is very low with us. Thats kinda where QF mainline has gone wrong - they think good wages must equate to happy crew. And the wages are fantastic, yet a lot of crew are unhappy, - it's all about how people perceive they are treated by their company, most QF cabin crew feel they have no respect from their management.
The relationship between QF Longahul crew and their management is rarely anything but strained ( I believe, mostly due to ' innacurate perceptions' ).
If the new LCC treats their crew well, they will do well----> no matter what they pay their staff
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Wirraway -
I disagree with your post about the security of LCCs. What about Continental Lite, USAir Metrojet, Delta Express, Tango by Air Canada, United Shuttle, Buzz (owned by KLMuk), VirginSun, Lufthansa Express and GoFly by BA??? These are all LCCs started by major airlines that have bitten the dust. Infact I can't think of one that lasted more than two years (except Go which was sold because it almost killed BA at some bases!) Not good stats, I am afraid! Why is this going to work? What is so different?
Also re. the 717 AOC. It isn't on the CASA website anymore. Who's AOC are they on? How old is this AOC you are reading Mr Seatback? Is it the current one?
UDR -
I am living quite comfortably in SYD on my 'lowly' Impulse wages - and I am high maintainence! Seriously they are pretty damned good for our set up. Princess stuff is what we do. Most Long Haul FAs deserve their money 'cause they work bloody hard for it! We at the Pulse get paid good money for what we do. We are hard working and give a good service. I can assure you though. There is no nails being chipped over this way!
Comparing the earnings of Impulse and LH cabin crew is like comparing apples and oranges. Most LH crew would laugh at how easy they would find the Impulse flying. A single class and reasonable hours. No back of clock, 10 days at off at home guaranteed. Put a Pulse Chick in Y class galley on an oversold SYD-LAX and you would find most wouldn't make it.
Another point. I can assure you that, however good it may seem, cabin crew morale is the last thing on Impulse management's agenda! Period.
GalleyHag -
I agree. Impulse is in danger but SH too looks like being changed in some form. And I don't think the changes at either camp will be minimal!
Impulse and SH stand to lose out to varying degrees. Lets all stand together and hope nothing but the best for each.
QFskywalker -
What is the feeling at the Dash camp re. progression now? Looks like the LCC is going to effect everyone.
I disagree with your post about the security of LCCs. What about Continental Lite, USAir Metrojet, Delta Express, Tango by Air Canada, United Shuttle, Buzz (owned by KLMuk), VirginSun, Lufthansa Express and GoFly by BA??? These are all LCCs started by major airlines that have bitten the dust. Infact I can't think of one that lasted more than two years (except Go which was sold because it almost killed BA at some bases!) Not good stats, I am afraid! Why is this going to work? What is so different?
Also re. the 717 AOC. It isn't on the CASA website anymore. Who's AOC are they on? How old is this AOC you are reading Mr Seatback? Is it the current one?
UDR -
I am living quite comfortably in SYD on my 'lowly' Impulse wages - and I am high maintainence! Seriously they are pretty damned good for our set up. Princess stuff is what we do. Most Long Haul FAs deserve their money 'cause they work bloody hard for it! We at the Pulse get paid good money for what we do. We are hard working and give a good service. I can assure you though. There is no nails being chipped over this way!
Comparing the earnings of Impulse and LH cabin crew is like comparing apples and oranges. Most LH crew would laugh at how easy they would find the Impulse flying. A single class and reasonable hours. No back of clock, 10 days at off at home guaranteed. Put a Pulse Chick in Y class galley on an oversold SYD-LAX and you would find most wouldn't make it.
Another point. I can assure you that, however good it may seem, cabin crew morale is the last thing on Impulse management's agenda! Period.
GalleyHag -
I agree. Impulse is in danger but SH too looks like being changed in some form. And I don't think the changes at either camp will be minimal!
Impulse and SH stand to lose out to varying degrees. Lets all stand together and hope nothing but the best for each.
QFskywalker -
What is the feeling at the Dash camp re. progression now? Looks like the LCC is going to effect everyone.
Join Date: Apr 2003
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ditzy the feeling at the dash camp is horrid. What are we to do ? The only way to save us is for the faaa and qantas to negotiate a progression scheme into L/H for regional crew, of course this could cause some conflict with S/H as they would obviously want preference to these positions before regional crew as their jobs are the ones being threatened so this still leaves us at the bottom of the queue.
I don't really see the progression scheme as anything QF care about these days, I could think of a thousand other solutions i.e - cross training all qantaslink crew on each others a/c to maintain morale etc but this would never happen as QF would always find excuses to prevent something like this happening.
The way I see it dash crews have a few options-
1. Remain on low pay forever and fly regional
2. Apply externally for the new LCC
3. Virgin Blue
I don't really see the progression scheme as anything QF care about these days, I could think of a thousand other solutions i.e - cross training all qantaslink crew on each others a/c to maintain morale etc but this would never happen as QF would always find excuses to prevent something like this happening.
The way I see it dash crews have a few options-
1. Remain on low pay forever and fly regional
2. Apply externally for the new LCC
3. Virgin Blue
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The new LCC - whatever it is and whoever runs it - may not be as casualised as we would all think.
Airlines - whatever their nature - have to be able to plan for schedules, etc. Hiring a predominantly casual workforce is fraught with danger.
In order to plan accordingly, the LCC needs to be able to crew each duty as part of planned crewing. Unless they plan to crew the airline with hundreds upon hundreds of casuals, I don't see how this will work (remember how Flight Force casuals weren't getting any hours for months? True, AN was not designed as a casual workforce, but at the same time, it is difficult to assign a full-time roster without that casual arguing later on that they should be made a full time employee).
Although, a loophole may exist if the casuals are MAM or another contractor.
Furthermore, since they are casuals, they would be able to drop trips without losing sick leave, etc. because they HAVE no sick leave! Imagine the drop in coverage during big events like Mardi Gras, etc.
All I hope is that we all come out of this safe, secure and with our money/working conditions intact!
It's only been a week since the announcement and look how this thread has expanded! The next 5 weeks are going to be a killer!
Airlines - whatever their nature - have to be able to plan for schedules, etc. Hiring a predominantly casual workforce is fraught with danger.
In order to plan accordingly, the LCC needs to be able to crew each duty as part of planned crewing. Unless they plan to crew the airline with hundreds upon hundreds of casuals, I don't see how this will work (remember how Flight Force casuals weren't getting any hours for months? True, AN was not designed as a casual workforce, but at the same time, it is difficult to assign a full-time roster without that casual arguing later on that they should be made a full time employee).
Although, a loophole may exist if the casuals are MAM or another contractor.
Furthermore, since they are casuals, they would be able to drop trips without losing sick leave, etc. because they HAVE no sick leave! Imagine the drop in coverage during big events like Mardi Gras, etc.
All I hope is that we all come out of this safe, secure and with our money/working conditions intact!
It's only been a week since the announcement and look how this thread has expanded! The next 5 weeks are going to be a killer!
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This is going to have a big effect on regional crew, but you guys should band together and talk with the FAAA. Long Haul crew will never allow you to take your senority with you. But the FAAA could put a proposal to Qantas where you could progress to Long Haul on year 1 pay and no senority. That would be far better than progressing to the new LCC on similar wages. This may not be such a big issue for the FAAA international union as it will not directly effect their members and it would be just a matter of amending the progression agreement. But you guys being Eastern and Sunstate would need to approach your union and get them to go and fight for you on this issue.
I can see some short haul crew (myself included) wanting to go to Long Haul if everything falls apart in short haul but there would be a lot that wouldnt. You guys should get in now and try to work out a deal. Just my thoughts though as there maybe a lot of you that dont want to go to Long haul either.
I suppose it would be more difficult for Impulse crew as you guys currently dont have a progression agreement as such whereas Eastern and Sunstate have that advantage.
I can see some short haul crew (myself included) wanting to go to Long Haul if everything falls apart in short haul but there would be a lot that wouldnt. You guys should get in now and try to work out a deal. Just my thoughts though as there maybe a lot of you that dont want to go to Long haul either.
I suppose it would be more difficult for Impulse crew as you guys currently dont have a progression agreement as such whereas Eastern and Sunstate have that advantage.
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Mr Seatback 2
quote:
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Furthermore, since they are casuals, they would be able to drop trips without losing sick leave, etc. because they HAVE no sick leave! Imagine the drop in coverage during big events like Mardi Gras, etc.
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That is the whole point of having casuals, if casual crew are seen to develop a 'pattern' of not being available, they simply dont get called to work again.
Casuals have no recourse against termination, that is why QF and others want them so much. Trying to get rid of a permanent employee under our FAAA EBAs is very difficult. Whereas casuals ----- just dont get called again, and they are gone
quote:
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Furthermore, since they are casuals, they would be able to drop trips without losing sick leave, etc. because they HAVE no sick leave! Imagine the drop in coverage during big events like Mardi Gras, etc.
------------------------------
That is the whole point of having casuals, if casual crew are seen to develop a 'pattern' of not being available, they simply dont get called to work again.
Casuals have no recourse against termination, that is why QF and others want them so much. Trying to get rid of a permanent employee under our FAAA EBAs is very difficult. Whereas casuals ----- just dont get called again, and they are gone
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Where's the patronage if they have hundreds of casuals, and none of them are getting called in the first place?
That's what I saw happen at AN - the casuals simply jacked the job in for one with a regular income! The enthusiasm wears off real quick when they don't get any income/hours from what they've spent 4 weeks training for...sad, but true!
And really, given the cost of training schools, could the LCC afford to do this on a regular basis? Unless of course they do a 'Ryanair' and get the crew to pay for their training (...shudder shudder...)
That's what I saw happen at AN - the casuals simply jacked the job in for one with a regular income! The enthusiasm wears off real quick when they don't get any income/hours from what they've spent 4 weeks training for...sad, but true!
And really, given the cost of training schools, could the LCC afford to do this on a regular basis? Unless of course they do a 'Ryanair' and get the crew to pay for their training (...shudder shudder...)
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lcc/ impulse
just a question, the pulse kids, are they qantas employed or just airconnects, ( contracts). and if they are the later, doesn't that mean they can be told to crew the LCC or leave?.
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Johnny Utar,
The Airconnex crew are employed by Impulse Airlines/Airconnex who are a wholly owned subsidiary of Qantas, meaning they are employed by a company that is owned by Qantas.
For all intents and purposes, they are considered Qantas Group employees, in the same way as Eastern and Sunstate crew are. They receive profit share, staff travel, access to Qantas Credit Union, Qantas College, and their ID's are produced and controlled by Qantas.
All crew are currently permanent full time, and always have been (with the exception of that regrettable unit trust holder arrangement they had before the FAAA become involved...shudder shudder).
As for the LCC, who knows what will happen in the future - I think we're seeing the inevitable end of flying for life as many of us envisaged in the beginning.
The Airconnex crew are employed by Impulse Airlines/Airconnex who are a wholly owned subsidiary of Qantas, meaning they are employed by a company that is owned by Qantas.
For all intents and purposes, they are considered Qantas Group employees, in the same way as Eastern and Sunstate crew are. They receive profit share, staff travel, access to Qantas Credit Union, Qantas College, and their ID's are produced and controlled by Qantas.
All crew are currently permanent full time, and always have been (with the exception of that regrettable unit trust holder arrangement they had before the FAAA become involved...shudder shudder).
As for the LCC, who knows what will happen in the future - I think we're seeing the inevitable end of flying for life as many of us envisaged in the beginning.
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Heard today that QF will be taking people off the shortlist to fill 120 casual positions? Can anyone shed some light on this. I'm guessing that these positions will be filled by the MAM shortlisters & not QF???
Any info's great!
Any info's great!
