Virgin Australia - Wannabes & Recruitment
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It would concern me that the contract is so loose. It's very important as an employee to know where the limitations of your working life lie. This job is a lifestyle but you are also entitled to your own time away from it. You need that for your own sanity.
Dream jobs are wonderful but they must not consume your whole life. You still need time off an aircraft, time with your friends and family and the ability to structure your personal life to some degree.
Dream jobs are wonderful but they must not consume your whole life. You still need time off an aircraft, time with your friends and family and the ability to structure your personal life to some degree.
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Welcome to the forum guys!
Hey Winglettes, Shonez and Bobbin74, welcome to the forum...
To answer you questions Bobbin74, you get paid to do the training and you have 7 days to sign the contract...
Good luck everyone.......lets hope more of us hear some good news this week..
To answer you questions Bobbin74, you get paid to do the training and you have 7 days to sign the contract...
Good luck everyone.......lets hope more of us hear some good news this week..
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F111 Said:
I'm not sure if you were using this scenario as a possible pairing or not F111 - but I can't imagine a 777 crew following an international flight with a domestic sector.
I assumed the clause was there to put a batch through a 737/eJet conversion and then loan them to domestic operations for a few weeks/months/years, like was recently suggested with the wet-leasing of 2 aircraft from DJ to Pac Blue.
I have to take the opinion that if the clauses have been written - then they've thought about using them.
The FAAA weren't invited in to the drafting of the conditions - and the contracts have been presented as individual agreements - so not entirely sure that collecting together after the fact will have a huge impact.
Potential crew reading/thinking/discussing/rejecting will certainly have a bigger impact - but unfortunately there does appear to be evidence on this forum of candidates willing to take this role at any price.
Also, at sessions with management (unplugged) we were told there would be a minimum 14 days to respond to the contract. But that was a few months back now.
Think about it, international flights have a 2 hour sign on and 1/2 to 1 hour (to clear customs) after arrival, so if the flight time is 15 hours (on a good day) from LAX to SYD you duty time from would 17.5 to 18 hours. Then you would need another 30 minute to get from the international to domestic terminal so you are up to 18 to 18.5 hours of duty before you get on the VB aircraft. The minimum VB return flight from SYD would be CBR, this flight chock to chock is 90 mins (at best). So the min duty you could do would be 19.5 to 20 hours and 3 sectors (including 1 BOC), no fatigue system would allow this.
I assumed the clause was there to put a batch through a 737/eJet conversion and then loan them to domestic operations for a few weeks/months/years, like was recently suggested with the wet-leasing of 2 aircraft from DJ to Pac Blue.
I have to take the opinion that if the clauses have been written - then they've thought about using them.
The FAAA weren't invited in to the drafting of the conditions - and the contracts have been presented as individual agreements - so not entirely sure that collecting together after the fact will have a huge impact.
Potential crew reading/thinking/discussing/rejecting will certainly have a bigger impact - but unfortunately there does appear to be evidence on this forum of candidates willing to take this role at any price.
Also, at sessions with management (unplugged) we were told there would be a minimum 14 days to respond to the contract. But that was a few months back now.
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My contract is in the mail, and to tell you the truth I am pretty sure that I will be very UNHAPPY, but that will not prevent me from accepting the offer.
We are all coming from different airlines, and we would only accept the offer if it was in some way better than what we currently have.
For me, I will be getting an increase of $10000 per annum on my base salary. I will have the opportunity to fly long haul from my home city. (I have been stuck in the UK for 2 years!) I will be flying for an Australian airline. And there will be lots of opportunities for promotion over the next few years.
For me, I would be stupid not to accept the offer! What else am I suppoed to do? Go back to England?
Can I ask though, to those in the know: Is there any reason why we cannot become unionised at a later date?
We are all coming from different airlines, and we would only accept the offer if it was in some way better than what we currently have.
For me, I will be getting an increase of $10000 per annum on my base salary. I will have the opportunity to fly long haul from my home city. (I have been stuck in the UK for 2 years!) I will be flying for an Australian airline. And there will be lots of opportunities for promotion over the next few years.
For me, I would be stupid not to accept the offer! What else am I suppoed to do? Go back to England?
Can I ask though, to those in the know: Is there any reason why we cannot become unionised at a later date?
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ccguy,
CASA will only issue an AOC to an operator when it has an aircraft (ie B777 in the case of V Australia) and the required personal. This is listed in CAO 82.5 for High Capacity Operations ie bigger than a Dash 8-100/200. Part of the requirements of holding an AOC is the requirement to have a Check and Training System in place. This is listed in CAR 217. Each crew member (pilot or cabin crew) is required to carry out certain checks per year ie EP’s for cabin crew has listed in CAO 20.11 appendix IV. Part of having a 217 system is the requirement to have check pilots or in the case of cabin crew CASA approved 20.11 instructors who carry out and certify that a cabin crew member has complied with CAO 20.11 appendix IV. CASA 20.11 instructors are only approved to train and check on each aircraft type that CASA have approved them for (CASA issues an Instrument of Approval) and for that airline/AOC only. In order for CASA to issue this instrument the AOC holder must have the aircraft on their AOC with the appropriate manuals and procedures in place. In order for CASA to allow the AOC holder to put an aircraft on the AOC they are required to have check captains plus CASA will only issue in AOC when the company provides them with a rego for the aircraft, you are not allowed to just B777 on your AOC.
So in order for V Australia to allow their cabin crew to crew a B737 or Ejet at least 1 aircraft of each type would be required to be on their AOC, along with the required number of check captains and this is not going to happen. All of the required staff required under CAR 217 is listed in the company’s ops manuals.
You are incorrect when you say all airlines operate under Virgin Blue Holdings LTD; Virgin Blue Holdings LTD is not the holder of the AOC for Virgin Blue or PAC Blue. The holder of the AOC for Virgin Blue is Virgin Blue Airlines PTY LTD and for Pacific Blue; PACIFIC BLUE AIRLINES (NZ) LIMITED. Virgin Blue Holdings LTD is the owner of these companies and V Australia thats it. They do not have an AOC of any sorts. You as cabin crew or pilot operate under an AOC the aircraft are maintained and operated under an AOC, tickets are sold under an AOC, not the owner of the company. It’s the same with QANTAS, the AOC for mainline is issued to Qantas Airways, Jetstar has it’s own AOC and so does Sunstate and Eastern. Although all are owned by QANTAS, each has their own AOC and 217 check and training system, therefore an A330 Cabin Crew member for Qantas cannot just jump on and crew a Jetstar A330 flight, a Cabin Crew member at Sunstate cannot crew a flight with Eastern etc.
Think about if this was allowed Qantas would have the Jetstar Cabin Crew crewing their flights when they need them.
The same goes for the Cabin Crew who pay to do a Cabin Crew course at Aviation Australia. Aviation Australia trains these people on multiple aircraft, however their qualifications don’t allow them to jump straight into an aircraft an operate a flight, why because CAO 82.5 and CAR217 does not allow it.
With regard the offers to go to PAC Blue, those Cabin Crew who do go will be required to carry out training, including their EP’s training before they are allowed to operate a flight with them. This will then bring those cabin crew members in under their check and training system. The same goes for the pilot’s that are going there, although they are currently flying the same aircraft they are required to complete 4 weeks of ground school including EP’s and simulator training, to bring them under the PAC Blue check and training system. Once they complete their 6 months in NZ they will come back and require further training and checking under Virgn Blue’s system before they can operate a Virgin Blue flight.
Virgin Blue have kept the companies and the AOC separate for many reasons, such as if one gets into trouble they get shut it down with affecting the others.
So down the track they may bring all the companies in under one AOC, then cabin crew could operate on 777s, 737s and E-jets, but it’s a long way off as V Australia will have to be making good money, plus the pilot’s (Virgin Blue) EBA still has 4 years to run before they could try and push contracts on the pilots.
Plus like I said the FMS would not allow it based on the current routes, sure if they started to operate to Asia with shorter legs and less BOC then you could operate a domestic sector (s), but it would still require all the aircraft to be under the same AOC, ie Virgin Blue Airlines or V Australia.
CASA will only issue an AOC to an operator when it has an aircraft (ie B777 in the case of V Australia) and the required personal. This is listed in CAO 82.5 for High Capacity Operations ie bigger than a Dash 8-100/200. Part of the requirements of holding an AOC is the requirement to have a Check and Training System in place. This is listed in CAR 217. Each crew member (pilot or cabin crew) is required to carry out certain checks per year ie EP’s for cabin crew has listed in CAO 20.11 appendix IV. Part of having a 217 system is the requirement to have check pilots or in the case of cabin crew CASA approved 20.11 instructors who carry out and certify that a cabin crew member has complied with CAO 20.11 appendix IV. CASA 20.11 instructors are only approved to train and check on each aircraft type that CASA have approved them for (CASA issues an Instrument of Approval) and for that airline/AOC only. In order for CASA to issue this instrument the AOC holder must have the aircraft on their AOC with the appropriate manuals and procedures in place. In order for CASA to allow the AOC holder to put an aircraft on the AOC they are required to have check captains plus CASA will only issue in AOC when the company provides them with a rego for the aircraft, you are not allowed to just B777 on your AOC.
So in order for V Australia to allow their cabin crew to crew a B737 or Ejet at least 1 aircraft of each type would be required to be on their AOC, along with the required number of check captains and this is not going to happen. All of the required staff required under CAR 217 is listed in the company’s ops manuals.
You are incorrect when you say all airlines operate under Virgin Blue Holdings LTD; Virgin Blue Holdings LTD is not the holder of the AOC for Virgin Blue or PAC Blue. The holder of the AOC for Virgin Blue is Virgin Blue Airlines PTY LTD and for Pacific Blue; PACIFIC BLUE AIRLINES (NZ) LIMITED. Virgin Blue Holdings LTD is the owner of these companies and V Australia thats it. They do not have an AOC of any sorts. You as cabin crew or pilot operate under an AOC the aircraft are maintained and operated under an AOC, tickets are sold under an AOC, not the owner of the company. It’s the same with QANTAS, the AOC for mainline is issued to Qantas Airways, Jetstar has it’s own AOC and so does Sunstate and Eastern. Although all are owned by QANTAS, each has their own AOC and 217 check and training system, therefore an A330 Cabin Crew member for Qantas cannot just jump on and crew a Jetstar A330 flight, a Cabin Crew member at Sunstate cannot crew a flight with Eastern etc.
Think about if this was allowed Qantas would have the Jetstar Cabin Crew crewing their flights when they need them.
The same goes for the Cabin Crew who pay to do a Cabin Crew course at Aviation Australia. Aviation Australia trains these people on multiple aircraft, however their qualifications don’t allow them to jump straight into an aircraft an operate a flight, why because CAO 82.5 and CAR217 does not allow it.
With regard the offers to go to PAC Blue, those Cabin Crew who do go will be required to carry out training, including their EP’s training before they are allowed to operate a flight with them. This will then bring those cabin crew members in under their check and training system. The same goes for the pilot’s that are going there, although they are currently flying the same aircraft they are required to complete 4 weeks of ground school including EP’s and simulator training, to bring them under the PAC Blue check and training system. Once they complete their 6 months in NZ they will come back and require further training and checking under Virgn Blue’s system before they can operate a Virgin Blue flight.
Virgin Blue have kept the companies and the AOC separate for many reasons, such as if one gets into trouble they get shut it down with affecting the others.
So down the track they may bring all the companies in under one AOC, then cabin crew could operate on 777s, 737s and E-jets, but it’s a long way off as V Australia will have to be making good money, plus the pilot’s (Virgin Blue) EBA still has 4 years to run before they could try and push contracts on the pilots.
Plus like I said the FMS would not allow it based on the current routes, sure if they started to operate to Asia with shorter legs and less BOC then you could operate a domestic sector (s), but it would still require all the aircraft to be under the same AOC, ie Virgin Blue Airlines or V Australia.
Last edited by F111; 26th Aug 2008 at 06:49.
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Agreements
Someone who has the agreement needs to take copies and send it to all the Sydney news papers and current affairs programs. If they will not negotiate 'individual contracts' then they need to be exposed for public scrutiny. The FAAA is useless in this situation as they are in most situations. At least if the public can see that they are just another airline with an Australian reference in there name claiming to be a fair employer it may save people in the future wasting time, and money going through the application process to be told that they will work for pittance with bad conditions.
This kind of exposure would need to happen now before any more people sign the agreements to have maximum effect
Food for thought
This kind of exposure would need to happen now before any more people sign the agreements to have maximum effect
Food for thought
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F111 - you seem to be fixed on proving that crew cannot operate a domestic flight before/after an international sector for the many reasons that you've outlined.
I don't know that anyone here thought that the domestic flying alluded to in the contracts would be in conjunction with international sectors. The assumption has always been a case of V Australia 'loaning' their crew to Virgin Blue / Pac Blue for a yet-to-be-disclosed period of time - and that EP and Service training would then have to be part of the deal.
Domestic crew certainly are of the opinion that in time we could be sharing the cabin with V Australia imports that are operating for less $$ than us.
I don't know that anyone here thought that the domestic flying alluded to in the contracts would be in conjunction with international sectors. The assumption has always been a case of V Australia 'loaning' their crew to Virgin Blue / Pac Blue for a yet-to-be-disclosed period of time - and that EP and Service training would then have to be part of the deal.
Domestic crew certainly are of the opinion that in time we could be sharing the cabin with V Australia imports that are operating for less $$ than us.
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Any GOOD news?
I'm glad you loved my quote ccguy. Now I would like to post a quote I loved from you way back in Jan 2007 (Thread Virgin Blue EBA - Post 107)
QUOTE: "If you are that concerned about the conditions and it is that taxing on your life, then find a new job. It is as simple as that."....you took the words right out of my mouth ccguy.
I can think of plenty of GOOD things to look forward to eg...promotions, a new start for everyone, brand new aircraft, bunk beds, a job you love, making Australian Aviation History with a brand new airline, International travel, bunk beds, shopping at Century City each week with new V cabin crew etc...... I believe the 260 cabin crew who take the job won't be doing it for the money but for the love of the job....it's going to be great guys.
QUOTE: "If you are that concerned about the conditions and it is that taxing on your life, then find a new job. It is as simple as that."....you took the words right out of my mouth ccguy.
I can think of plenty of GOOD things to look forward to eg...promotions, a new start for everyone, brand new aircraft, bunk beds, a job you love, making Australian Aviation History with a brand new airline, International travel, bunk beds, shopping at Century City each week with new V cabin crew etc...... I believe the 260 cabin crew who take the job won't be doing it for the money but for the love of the job....it's going to be great guys.
Last edited by chicken or fish 2; 26th Aug 2008 at 11:36.
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CorF - You do have a say in the contract - don't accept it - and show that you're not prepared to allow the industry to head down the path that it is currently heading.
Shopping in LA could be kewl - but turning around in AKL and not setting foot inside the terminal could get boring when the short routes start coming in. Shopping in Rundle St Mall will be a let-down once you've been loaned to Virgin Blue too.
Recruitment/Management DO read these forums - I don't know if you've given out enough info (ie VRD dates/Phone Call dates/Medical dates) for yourself to be identified. I'd hate for someone with a sadistic streak to just hold off on your phone calls cause they enjoy watching your squirming on here.
p.s. You mention bunk beds twice in the benefits of working for V - you do realise that most of the flight you will be working, and not in them?
Shopping in LA could be kewl - but turning around in AKL and not setting foot inside the terminal could get boring when the short routes start coming in. Shopping in Rundle St Mall will be a let-down once you've been loaned to Virgin Blue too.
Recruitment/Management DO read these forums - I don't know if you've given out enough info (ie VRD dates/Phone Call dates/Medical dates) for yourself to be identified. I'd hate for someone with a sadistic streak to just hold off on your phone calls cause they enjoy watching your squirming on here.
p.s. You mention bunk beds twice in the benefits of working for V - you do realise that most of the flight you will be working, and not in them?
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ccguy don't listen too much to galley gossip - you can only work on aircraft listed on the AOC for the company you work for - you can't work for VB under VB's AOC & work on aircraft not listed on their AOC.
A way around PB/VB issues is for VB to "wet lease" aircraft to PB - this would mean the a/c could be operated by VB on PB's behalf (but operated using VB procedures and under VB's AOC).
There would be significent complication for VB to cross crew SH/LH crew - think about rest periods, duty periods & roster complication - not to mention disruption recovery etc. Not even QF cross crew between SH/LH & they do operate all their a/c under the 1 AOC & they do employee all the crew under one banner.
A way around PB/VB issues is for VB to "wet lease" aircraft to PB - this would mean the a/c could be operated by VB on PB's behalf (but operated using VB procedures and under VB's AOC).
There would be significent complication for VB to cross crew SH/LH crew - think about rest periods, duty periods & roster complication - not to mention disruption recovery etc. Not even QF cross crew between SH/LH & they do operate all their a/c under the 1 AOC & they do employee all the crew under one banner.
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Works Domestic - Didn't even apply...
Enjoy flying short-haul - but concerned that the company has seen fit to offer individual contracts to crew and doesn't want the FAAA involved - we're waiting for a new EBA - doesn't fill me with too much confidence that the future will remain as it is
Enjoy flying short-haul - but concerned that the company has seen fit to offer individual contracts to crew and doesn't want the FAAA involved - we're waiting for a new EBA - doesn't fill me with too much confidence that the future will remain as it is
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Well, for starters, I enjoy flying VB Domestic. I didn't apply for V nor really even considered it. I had heard rumblings of what was being offered in the contract and knew that I had made the right decision to not apply. AND I get paid more and have better conditions doing what I am doing now, and have less responsibility.
I am FAR from being jealous of those who will be flying with V, and I certainly have a lot more going for me at VB.
Enjoy to all those who will be at V. I hope that your expectations don't outweigh what you actually get.
I am FAR from being jealous of those who will be flying with V, and I certainly have a lot more going for me at VB.
Enjoy to all those who will be at V. I hope that your expectations don't outweigh what you actually get.
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well well well
hey peeps...
VRD last week went well, sorry about my long delay though
Anstar quick question... The dude your referring to... Was he this short guy who said he started in feb? Yeah he was a bit of a tosser.. hehe
meanwhile
did good i think, the stupid meeting thing in the beginning was a bit lame. I had this girl who kept interrupting me and taking my ideas as soon as i mentioned them. Oh well.... the rest i felt i did good...got the short english girl doing the interview who i thought was lovely
HOWEVER
not 100% i want this job. Looking at the pay, the conditions etc etc....
Not that tempted to move across from QF
Need to make up my mind within 2 weeks as I dont want to pay 200bucks for a medical for a job im not that keen on anymore....
BUT good luck to everyone else! And might see you in the isle
Spoke to someone at work today and was advised QF will be recruiting for cabin crew early next year to be more specific January.. (aparently once they get rid of all the cobwebs
) hehehe
VRD last week went well, sorry about my long delay though
Anstar quick question... The dude your referring to... Was he this short guy who said he started in feb? Yeah he was a bit of a tosser.. hehe
meanwhile
did good i think, the stupid meeting thing in the beginning was a bit lame. I had this girl who kept interrupting me and taking my ideas as soon as i mentioned them. Oh well.... the rest i felt i did good...got the short english girl doing the interview who i thought was lovely
HOWEVER
not 100% i want this job. Looking at the pay, the conditions etc etc....
Not that tempted to move across from QF
Need to make up my mind within 2 weeks as I dont want to pay 200bucks for a medical for a job im not that keen on anymore....
BUT good luck to everyone else! And might see you in the isle
Spoke to someone at work today and was advised QF will be recruiting for cabin crew early next year to be more specific January.. (aparently once they get rid of all the cobwebs
) hehehe
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dj,
I'm not 'fixed' on operating a domestic sector after an international. This was being suggested by others due to the 'grey' areas in the contract and I was pointing out that the FMS would not allow this plus 'crewing' by V Australia crew on Virgin Blue aircraft is not allowed under the Australian regulations (CAR's and CAO's), unless those crew members are trained and checked under Virgin Blue procedures. This could happen but it would be along the same lines as Virgin Blue sending crews to Pac Blue ie it would need to be a length of time and not just 1 week here or 1 month there.
Once again think about if it was easy to do (and cost effective) you would already be sitting next to crews from Pac Blue on your flights as they are already getting paid less than you!
Having said that the conditions offered to the Cabin Crew and pilots is crap, and from what I hear only 1 VB pilot is heading to V so far.
I'm not 'fixed' on operating a domestic sector after an international. This was being suggested by others due to the 'grey' areas in the contract and I was pointing out that the FMS would not allow this plus 'crewing' by V Australia crew on Virgin Blue aircraft is not allowed under the Australian regulations (CAR's and CAO's), unless those crew members are trained and checked under Virgin Blue procedures. This could happen but it would be along the same lines as Virgin Blue sending crews to Pac Blue ie it would need to be a length of time and not just 1 week here or 1 month there.
Once again think about if it was easy to do (and cost effective) you would already be sitting next to crews from Pac Blue on your flights as they are already getting paid less than you!
Having said that the conditions offered to the Cabin Crew and pilots is crap, and from what I hear only 1 VB pilot is heading to V so far.
Last edited by F111; 26th Aug 2008 at 12:52.
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Well, good luck affording Las Vegas on V wages....While crew will be struggling to get there and enjoy the day, I will be able to afford to fly over there on my annual leave and really enjoy myself.
I also hope that crew enjoy spending their overnight hotel credit every night at the hotel.
Enjoy boys and girls. Give me my Cooley returns anyday.
I also hope that crew enjoy spending their overnight hotel credit every night at the hotel.
Enjoy boys and girls. Give me my Cooley returns anyday.
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I hate start up airlines, they are often run by a bunch of self made millionaires with stars in their eyes. Build up everyone's hopes of finally getting their dream job, then they go bankrupt and leave their crew out in the cold!
V is a little different, it's backed by VB & SRB, and I want us to have every possible chance to become a major player in the intl aviation industry. To do this in the current economic climate is a big risk.
V-Aus is a business, a money making machine designed to maximise profits for it's share holders!
I don't blame V for trying every possible angle to make money. And that includes trying to pay us peanuts! Am I happy with the package? No! Will it stop me? No! Will I join the union? Yes!
At the end of the day, if the aircraft is on the ground, they might as well use it. It's called effective utilsation of your assets. Australia is so remote, they will have no choice to use it on a few short haul routes.
27 APR 09
VIRGIN BLUE AIRLINES FLIGHT DJ559
*Operated by V-AUSTRALIA
SYDNEY/TERMINAL 2
PERTH/ DOMESTIC TERMINAL
AIRCRAFT- BOEING 777-300ER
Same way Eastern is operating flights with a Qantas Flight Number.
V is a little different, it's backed by VB & SRB, and I want us to have every possible chance to become a major player in the intl aviation industry. To do this in the current economic climate is a big risk.
V-Aus is a business, a money making machine designed to maximise profits for it's share holders!
I don't blame V for trying every possible angle to make money. And that includes trying to pay us peanuts! Am I happy with the package? No! Will it stop me? No! Will I join the union? Yes!
At the end of the day, if the aircraft is on the ground, they might as well use it. It's called effective utilsation of your assets. Australia is so remote, they will have no choice to use it on a few short haul routes.
27 APR 09
VIRGIN BLUE AIRLINES FLIGHT DJ559
*Operated by V-AUSTRALIA
SYDNEY/TERMINAL 2
PERTH/ DOMESTIC TERMINAL
AIRCRAFT- BOEING 777-300ER
Same way Eastern is operating flights with a Qantas Flight Number.
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Got the call!
Here, here, I just want to fly! I agree with you!
I got the call!! In for a 6th October GS Bne. So excited contract is coming in the mail. Hope everyone will hear soon.
I got the call!! In for a 6th October GS Bne. So excited contract is coming in the mail. Hope everyone will hear soon.
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congrats!!! I think everyone that is taking the job will be doing it for the love of it... not the huge money!
There are other ways to make up your income and flying to the US is a really good base for getting items cheaper...
You should be proud of making it through!
There are other ways to make up your income and flying to the US is a really good base for getting items cheaper...
You should be proud of making it through!