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Originally Posted by Humpmedumpme
(Post 10353410)
... and VistaJet pilots being insane, how do they all pass their medicals?)
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Originally Posted by what next
(Post 10352747)
Theoretically there is even a legal rule. At least there used to be rule that a certain percentage (a majority!) of crews were required to be on fixed contracts, thereby limiting the number of freelance crews and preventing them to undercut the employees. I am pretty sure that rule still exists but I know that it is "interpreted" in different ways by companies and authorities in different countries.
And regarding that "mirror thing": How far do we want to go? A vast majority (me included) of business aviators that I have met along the way had a completely different professional life before their flying dream came true eventually. Are we supposed to step back every time when times get tough and go back to our previous professions so that those among us who are "only" pilots can continue to fly? Certainly not me and my mirror image has no problem with that either. In our company two or three of those "60% NetJets pilots" were freelancing back then. They undecut no one and were paid exactly the same as the other freelancers. No regular freelancer flew less because of them. The only negative thing I heard about them (they flew on a different type than I did) had to do with their 45(or so)-minute-briefings that strained the patience of some colleagues to the absolute limit ;-) And another "mirror-thing" that would bother me far more personally: Who are the people who can afford to charter a Global or Gulfstream - or whatever else companies like the one we talk about here operate - in the parts of the world (Africa!) where they do lots of their business? Would I want to fly for that kind of people? Could I still look in the mirror if I did? Anyhew... I just wanted to stir the pot up a tad, our "profession" is mostly not a straight thing, a lot of people go different paths. I have been self employed as a freelancer and I`m employed full time. I had a part time contract and I started my vocational life as an electrician and self funded PPL/CPL/IFR/ATP/FI/TRI/TRE. As much as I wouldn´t like to be undercut, I have understanding for folks left with 60%. And the same freelancers that might have been undercut by these guys, have actively undercut a full time employee somewhere, cos thats why freelancers mostly are employed: they are cheaper. This was always so and will never go away. BTW, I fly a lot to Africa and in Africa. I have no issue with that whatsoever. |
Originally Posted by His dudeness
(Post 10353479)
BTW, I fly a lot to Africa and in Africa. I have no issue with that whatsoever.
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Originally Posted by what next
(Post 10353422)
Sanity is not yet checked during medicals otherwise nobody would ever have accepted a pay-to-fly scheme...
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Originally Posted by EatMyShorts!
(Post 10353403)
Wrong, or rather incomplete information. Netjets has to ask crew members if they are willing to exceed 60 hour and they cannot force anyone to accept. If you say no, no questions will be asked, your plan will change and go home within the 60 hours (there maybe some extreme circumstances like going AOG in Petropavlovsk where you can't go home from quickly). And if you accept to exceed the 60 hour limit, you'll get paid extra for it. Shorthaul crews can go up to 65 hours, longhaul the limit is set to 70 hours.
Just to put some facts straight. |
Originally Posted by CL300
(Post 10353552)
So it is correct, it is a tool (used or not) in the toolbox. My operator cannot exceed the 60 hours.. Netjets Max duty is 70 hours
I never experienced any pressure (or fallout) to bend any rules or to work beyond any limits. How many any other operators ‘miraculously’ discover all their tech log items on the last flight back to base and never have AOGs for example? |
Originally Posted by what next
(Post 10353502)
So far (with my current employer) there were no arms dealers, drug dealers, slave dealers, illegal big-game hunters, warlords, oligarchs or corrupt politicians on those lists.
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Vistajet will surely still be around in 12, 24, 48 or more months from now. Rest assured. It's a "sellers market" now so pilots, for the first time in decades, have a greater choice of where, how and for whom they want to work. For some the 'Vista-package' doesn't work so they decide to seek employment elsewhere. That is a good thing. Both for the individuals involved and for the company because if you are unhappy with your employment you don't give it a 100%. People disparage the VistaJet model here comparing it to the likes of e.g. NetJet. That is unfortunate because the very idea of these 2 companies are radically different which makes their approach towards the market, both renumeration package and clientele, almost incomparable.
NetJet idea is based of fractional ownership. This means that all costs will be payed for by the owners of the aircraft that NetJet manages. If NetJet management did their homework correct then they would never have to dip into their own kitty to supplement owners expenses. Only when things go disasterly wrong (like in the 2008 financial meltdown) do they have to make up for short-falls. And like others said before, they did so in a very humane/generous way. Kudos to them for that. VistaJet on the other hand operates more like an airline in this respect meaning that they took/take all the risk upfront to buy and crew and maintain and operate 70+ aircraft worldwide and then try to recover this expenditure by chartering. Either 'on-demand' or by selling hours. This means that they have to be as lean as possible I think. The 'Vista-package' is quite straightforward and management never minces words about what it entails. Still 350+ pilots have decided to take them up on it and do their utmost to make the Vistajet model work. I therefor find it distasteful that many here disparage their colleagues for doing exactly what they themselves are doing; working for a company with the T's&C's that they find acceptable. And those who's perspective has changed and they no longer find the 'Vista-package' acceptable will seek employment elsewhere. VistaJet will no doubt find crew to replace them and everybody will be happy. |
Originally Posted by CL300
(Post 10353552)
So it is correct, it is a tool (used or not) in the toolbox. My operator cannot exceed the 60 hours.. Netjets Max duty is 70 hours
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Originally Posted by what next
(Post 10353502)
I have flown to Africa twice (for a previous employer) and both times we had a cargo of arms and ammunition (as much as a Metroliner could carry). All legal with papers and everything, but I am 100% certain that real people got killed with those things that I carried. I will not go any further than that otherwise I really won't like my mirror image. Other than a cab driver I get a passenger list before each flight and often some extra information. So far (with my current employer) there were no arms dealers, drug dealers, slave dealers, illegal big-game hunters, warlords, oligarchs or corrupt politicians on those lists. Some of our passengers (DJs and other musicians) may have carried small quantities of illegal substances in their baggage, others cheated with the emissions of their Diesel cars, others again may not be as honest with their taxes as I am (because I am too small for the loopholes) and one (french soccer player) was accused of having intercourse with underage prostitutes. But they killed nobody and sentenced no one to life long slave labor. I can live with that.
But going back to practical things, so you see Dmitry Yurgowitsch and Adnan Grawotish (I just made these names up btw) on your list. Do you have a special connection to the secret service to find out who they are and what they do ? Or are they just generally suspicious cause they ...fly some place ? Now to your guns...IF they had been used to defend, say Kurds from the IS, surely they would be "good" guns ? Is it really your place to decide what is "okay" morally (if otherwise legal) to transport and what is not ? Look, we all know that in an ideal world.... But it ain´t and never will be ideal. |
Originally Posted by Globally Challenged
(Post 10353568)
Having worked in several AOCs since NJE - they are fairly unique in that they are happy (and expect) the ops manuals to be applied as written. I never experienced any pressure (or fallout) to bend any rules or to work beyond any limits. How many any other operators ‘miraculously’ discover all their tech log items on the last flight back to base and never have AOGs for example? |
VJ
Originally Posted by CL300
(Post 10353915)
This is absolutely true..; NJE plays by the rules it set for itself, and stick to it. My comment was just to show that wherever or whoever you are looking at there is pros and cons..
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Originally Posted by Humpmedumpme
(Post 10353410)
How does PPJN vet/verify information that's posted? The above is incorrect as far as i know (both 19/11 and VistaJet pilots being insane, how do they all pass their medicals?)
Technically the contract has allowed 19/11 for a while, it’s only now that they’re asking crew to start a couple of rotations per year a day early. Initially it was by force but now you bid for two months of the year when you’re happy to start early. It’s still 17/13 though, generally. All said and done you’re probably looking at about 215-220 days a year where you’re away on company duty, including your training days. So what does that work out at? Something like 18/12? Usually you’re home early on day 17, sometimes you’ll make it home on day 16. If you’re lucky you’ll be late going out on day 1. It’s hard for the family man (or woman) but in fairness to management they do tell you this at interview stage. They’re also honest about the [poor] pay, the hard work and promise nothing more than 3* hotels, so they’re very open about the conditions. The reality is different. Hotels are generally very good; you win some, you lose some, but generally they’re Crowne Plaza type as standard. Asia, Central America and ME can see some outstanding hotels and they certainly outweigh the crap ones. Hotels just aren’t an issue for most. On the other hand the pay is. But then you’re told that at the outset so what can you say? They’ve obviously done the sums to work out whether it’s worth increasing salaries to retain people or whether it’s cheaper to bond new guys. Looks like it’s cheaper to bond new guys! It can be incredibly hard work though. Even though the numbers work it doesn’t take into account flying through the night and missing a whole night of sleep, having a few hours of [poor quality] sleep during the day and then flying again the following night. You can say ‘no’ though. People do and as far as I know they don’t really get questioned about it. There are some excellent sides to the job. The variety of destinations is unrivalled. The equipment is top notch and well maintained. The crews are, on the whole, fantastic. There’s generally quite a bit of freedom, I certainly never felt like management was breathing down your neck all the time. You get paid on the dot, every single month. Downsides are economy class proceeding, low pay, not enough crew and too long rotations. It’s not for everyone and you’re always going to get people who moan, but they’re not a million miles off creating a company you could call a career company. A few more crew, a few days less per month and a bit more cash and people wouldn’t leave. It’s really quite good fun. Yes you can earn more and work less elsewhere but for a lot of people there’s more to the package. That being said; I think most crew would agree that the balance between work, life and money isn’t working out in their favour at the moment, hence people are leaving. I hope that clears things up a little. I thought it was a nice place to work. M |
given the current lack of crew: are the hour requirements for the global fo vacancy set in stone or are they flexible with it?
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Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic
(Post 10354197)
How does Vistajet compare to these guys in your opinion?
VistaJet is a contender, ran by Austrian DNA, as a consequence pay can be an issue, but again what else at that scale in Europe ? If they call me me, i will join , no doubt, whatever the fleet |
Aircraft are well maintained. But being a truly "global operator" maintenance is carried out where-ever necessary. I've never had Management ask (or demand) to take a limping bird into the air. For them it's all about reputation. Most of their clientele they get from mouth to ear and anecdotal referrals. And since we're busier then ever I think that means that part at least is covered. |
VJ looking for Global 6000 and CL 350/850 FO.
Any change to the conditions, schedule etc. Is it still 17 days on 13 days off, that seems to be putting a lot of experienced crew off working there. |
I don't get why so much people complain about their roster. Honestly, in business aviation there are not many companies offering better ones than this. Maybe a real 14/14 is better, although my experience is that those companies who advertises a 14/14 in reality proceed you on your first off day and after your last duty day. So, basically it is more of a 16/12
I was flying for Vistajet almost 12 years. I left them and i am very happy where i am right now. The roster in VJ was extremely stable. Cannot comment on how it is now. I had in 80 percent of the cases my proceeding home on my last duty day in the evening, so my roster was most of the time a 16/14 rather than 17/13. I would like to know which companies offer significantly better rosters. If you say Netjets with their 6/5, okay your opinion. I would not like it. I would rather go for 17/13 |
Originally Posted by FLYDUS
(Post 10379863)
If you say Netjets with their 6/5, okay your opinion. I would not like it. I would rather go for 17/13
The NJE roster means less days of work per year, less time away from friends and family, both consecutively and cumulative. At NJE you do all your training on duty days and vacation is on top. Vista just doesn't compare. To state otherwise is insane. Ridiculous. Sorry to be so blunt. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but the facts are the facts. |
Originally Posted by 733driver
(Post 10380175)
Wow. I don't know what to call this. Crazy? Delusional? Take your pick.
The NJE roster means less days of work per year, less time away from friends and family, both consecutively and cumulative. At NJE you do all your training on duty days and vacation is on top. Vista just doesn't compare. To state otherwise is insane. Ridiculous. Sorry to be so blunt. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but the facts are the facts. I´d like to work 6/5 rather than 17/13 BUT if he likes it better, than thats his opinion. Period. |
Originally Posted by His dudeness
(Post 10380193)
I´d like to work 6/5 rather than 17/13 BUT if he likes it better, than thats his opinion. Period.
To like vista's roster better than NJE's is really quite irrational. |
Originally Posted by Humpmedumpme
(Post 10380541)
As long as it’s the same as yours? Would love to sit next to you for six days......just imagine 17......... 17/13 works for me, 6/5 doesn’t. Opinion and fact. 17 is long but I’d prefer that to the ballache of proceeding more than once a week. I imagine during 17 days on you will frequently be required to take an airline mid-tour. For example when an aircraft goes into maintenance or when you need your two local nights off to reset the duty clock but the aircraft needs to keep flying. So I don't think you will necessarily only have two airlines per 17 day tour. Granted, the same is true for NJE, sometimes. However, in NJE your airline is in business class if it's longer than six hours. In Vista it's always eco, right? Now that would be a real pain for me. In Vista you do all your training on your OFF days. In NJE it's on duty days. And what about vacation? In NJE vacation is subtracted form your paid duty days. Overall, I'm sure you work many days less at NJE per year and you get paid more, too. And you are gone for less time in one stretch. It's ok to be happy enough with the vista roster but I really have a very hard time understanding how anyone could consider vista's roster better. Objectives it clearly isn't better. And even subjectively I struggle with that assessment. Now, if we were talking a true 14/14 or 15/15 with long haul travel in biz the I could see how some might like that better than 6/5 or 7/6. It still wouldn't be my preference, though. |
It’s only 17/13 if you disregard the extra days you are required to do every few months and the 4 off periods disturbed by training and pointless company parties. each of those 13 days loses between 4 or 5 days so at best with the 18 “off days” you must work you’re working 18/12 or 19/11 with precious little compensation for it. It’s far from a bad company but if you look at the overall package for FOs NJE is miles better and other companies are offering substantially better money for similar roster patterns that are a bit less stable but still allow for paid leave Vista gives you zero leave because that’s what your off days are for... It isn’t Captains that are leaving, it’s FOs and if you look at that package in isolation Vista is terrible. |
Originally Posted by Humpmedumpme
(Post 10381101)
What’s the time to left seat at NJE? But that doesn't make the Vista roster better than the NJE one :) |
Originally Posted by Humpmedumpme
(Post 10381101)
What’s the time to left seat at NJE? |
733Driver,
totally get your points, especially pointing out the 4 months per year we had to do OPC/LPC, CRM and Strategy Days during our OFF. My main reason to leave was the eco proceedings and those 4 months......... There are plenty of valid reasons, i decided to leave after almost 12 years, and i am really happy where i am right now. Anyway, is still believe that 6/5 for me personally doesn't fit as good as my current 14/14 is doing. I just like the fact to come home and almost feel like having a vacation every month. but as we could both see on the replies, everybody is different and has its unique ways of dealing in this challenging industry. Happy landings. |
Thanks FLYDUS,
Glad to hear you are happy where you are now. I can totally see that a good 14/14 gig can be quite appealing to some. Take care :-) |
What, prey tell, is a “ strategy day “ and why are you doing it on days off ? |
Originally Posted by Meester proach
(Post 10391104)
What, prey tell, is a “ strategy day “ and why are you doing it on days off ? you get to meet people you’ve not met in the company and will probably never meet again and meet a few that you got drunk with last year. Some of it is fun but it’s not worth the ballache and 5 days of your time. They go because it’s mandatory. It does make you feel like part of something bigger for a week or so. |
Boabity- if vistajet is that bad, why don’t you resign. Companies don’t get double digit growth with negative people like you (if you are in fact working for vj). If you don’t, then keep going - your jealousy shines through mate. |
Originally Posted by nibs2007
(Post 10391990)
Boabity- if vistajet is that bad, why don’t you resign. Companies don’t get double digit growth with negative people like you (if you are in fact working for vj). If you don’t, then keep going - your jealousy shines through mate. The thing is , the market has evolved a bit, and people whom were on a standby list somewhere are leaving, and the new one's ( despite FO, that would take any jobs anyway) have the choice.. They will have to tune and tweak a little the T&Cs, but they are running a cash machine..no worries.. |
36 pilots left last year mate. That’s 36 out of 350. And two of them were fired. Clearly you don’t know your facts. Scary that you fly a plane...right seat only I hope.... |
Originally Posted by nibs2007
(Post 10392046)
36 pilots left last year mate. That’s 36 out of 350. And two of them were fired. Clearly you don’t know your facts. Scary that you fly a plane...right seat only I hope.... I’d say my thoughts are a pretty accurate reflection of how things go down, you may think it’s negative, then again you haven’t yet been flying for vista yet. Good luck, it’s a good place to get lots of experience. |
Boabity - I am sure there is more to life then being online just after quarter past midnight... just to confirm your intel is factually incorrect! Would you please stop spreading fake news! You should act more positively, responsibly and least to say professionally that’s what our industry expects from us. Now that we are getting little personal and you know my aspirations. Let me give you quick summary, excited to say the least, working on truly global operation with some of the most amazing and hard working people I have ever meet. We are developing company so comes with lots of hard work across the spectrum. So I simply say it’s Horses for courses, as you know pastures aren’t always greener, are they? I hope this clears any misconceptions and wish you move on. On that final note, could I ask who exactly is Boabity? |
Nice try, nibsi!
PS: have you ever thought of the possibility that "quarter past midnight" may be "quarter past 2pm" somewhere else in the world? |
Originally Posted by EatMyShorts!
(Post 10392963)
Nice try, nibsi!
PS: have you ever thought of the possibility that "quarter past midnight" may be "quarter past 2pm" somewhere else in the world? If the "nibs-person" is either ops or management, then it does not know this unimportant fact. Thats why they think we are continuously on holiday trips. |
Originally Posted by nibs2007
(Post 10392046)
36 pilots left last year mate. That’s 36 out of 350. And two of them were fired. Clearly you don’t know your facts. Scary that you fly a plane...right seat only I hope.... |
It is high...says a lot about VJ!!
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Worked for them(VJS) a while ago.
As soon as I got an airline job again I ran as fast as I could - still they messed with me - my holidays misteriously(was on the VERY old Austrian contract with 5 weeks of holidays/year) disappeared, only a few days remained.All records vanished. My company mailbox got locked more or less immediately after I resigned, even I still was in my notice period. AND finally, my 5 year bonus did not make it anymore into my account(even if well earned). So, be careful, as many in this business you have to look after your pay. Or be prepared to go to court in Malta(yeah, that would work ;-) ). Apart from above mentioned things I fully agree : Cons: - 17/13 which actually was, when I was there, a 19/11. Not sure if they really changed that. The 11 off contain 3-4 days/month of holidays, so at the end only 6-7 days off/month in fact. In my earlier days there I had some 25/5 rotations and I recall a 19 on, 2 off, 7 on "gig" as well. They did not ask me, they just planned it. - pay is bad, true. Even as an Austrian I found it bad considering how much you have to "do" for them while you are on(of course everything around the aircraft, data monitoring download, processing, FMS database upload(of course preparation of the package before in the hotel), helping the girl clean the aircraft(was even "enforced" by company memo, anyway, most guys helped anyway as the finally wanted to reach the hotel a tad earlier and keep the girl in a good mood ^^).....). Plus of course you went with the girl shopping to carry that bloody bottled water as we where not allowed to order that from catering. So - at least 2 times(normally more often) some good shopping trips, carrying the stuff to the hotel, sometimes, if no storage, carry it to the room and then all together with your own stuff for 17+ days back down when it was time to fly again. So many memories thinking we are a moving company not a bizz jet crew..... - hotels have been not the best.Especially in Europe. In Asia and ME they have been ok. Russia sometimes - brrrr. Do NOT miss them. - all training in off days - so again your 11-13 will be shortened at least 3-4 times/year. AND YES - they will make a big fuzz if you do NOT agree with them. - on top of the training you had(do not know if that is still required) to attend a "party"(I think they called that BS "strategy day") every year. Usually a summer or winter edition took place, so both sides of the roster would have to attend one. Normally 1-2 days, with some brainwashing and party. Most of the time I managed to avoid it. English folks tend to like that kind of stuff, so it is not a "minus" for all of us - sometimes VERY difficult passengers, especially Russians or from former russian republics. If they got to offensive(had to call in once) the company usually stands behind you and will swap the crew/aircraft if another flight is booked with same customer. Here the airliner cockpit doors are really missing. Found that really a safety issue, after all you really do not know which strange people with which "profession" you had on board. -some managed to have a kind of part time roster. But the company do not really like to give that away. Normally on part time you could not go onto the Global, and during my time there they started to exclude part timers from the seniority list(which got rectified pretty fast after I went to Austrian Authorities(Arbeiterkammer) to claim a violation of equal threatment laws. We had seniority back after 4 weeks. But they try - wherever they can. And sometimes they succeed. All in all very exhausting for the employee as you feel like Don Quijote - always fighting windmills. Pros(for me): - VERY nice collegues in general - with most it was easy to "survive" this 17-19 days on(some of the chicks in the back had some problems and could annoy you in the long run). Generally the cockpit "atmosphere" was great. - flying is very different compared to airline aviation. No problem in flying the aircraft as well manually, a thing that many airlines call you in the office for "tea and biscuits". Most likely the ONE big thing I miss(airline flying is a bit boring, however I love the stability of the rosters compared to that 17/13). Flying was fun. If it has to be GA, try to find something better. My 10 cents. The shiny office and aircraft tend to convince many potential candidates that the rest of the outfit is shiny as well.... ermm.....nope, it isn't. |
Do they still have a mass exodus of pilots?
From the sounds of it their reputation is not too great and they need a lot of work to start looking like a good employer or potential employer. |
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