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2020 Mandate

Old 13th Jan 2019, 18:05
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2020 Mandate

Good evening folks,

Regarding the 2020 Mandate in the EUland, on top of the ADS-B OUT is the CPDLC required? To which aircrafts is applicable?

cheers
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 18:35
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Originally Posted by B737-800W View Post
Good evening folks,

Regarding the 2020 Mandate in the EUland, on top of the ADS-B OUT is the CPDLC required? To which aircrafts is applicable?

cheers
This is a good question. There is an exemption list by the EU-commission, but apparently Eurocontrol (!) lobbies for more exemptions. Partly, because the stuff not really works well, I was told.

Now I put that question forward to Eurocontrol for "my" aircraft (C680) which is not exempt by that list although Cessna had an exemption years ago. Waiting now for roughly 3 weeks, but the guy is on leave right now.... and there is no CPDLC solution for my aircraft at least now. Eurocontrol moved my question to the EU-Commision by the way....
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 18:50
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Originally Posted by His dudeness View Post
This is a good question. There is an exemption list by the EU-commission, but apparently Eurocontrol (!) lobbies for more exemptions. Partly, because the stuff not really works well, I was told.

Now I put that question forward to Eurocontrol for "my" aircraft (C680) which is not exempt by that list although Cessna had an exemption years ago. Waiting now for roughly 3 weeks, but the guy is on leave right now.... and there is no CPDLC solution for my aircraft at least now. Eurocontrol moved my question to the EU-Commision by the way....
Unless told otherwise then I think EU 2015/310 seems to be the definitive version of what is and isn't exempt.
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 19:03
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Originally Posted by asdf1234 View Post
Unless told otherwise then I think EU 2015/310 seems to be the definitive version of what is and isn't exempt.
If you are flying above FL285 you will need CPDLC by Feb 5 2020. Currently only 30% of traffic in Europe complies so I can only imagine there is going to be a big queue at the MROs in the next 12 months!
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Old 14th Jan 2019, 05:44
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The Falcon EASy aircraft have CPDLC [ATN-1B) but are blocked by eurocontroll because the system had to many disconnects. Curious how that will be treated in 2020. Not my fault Eurocontrol blocked me. Apart from that. Why do we need CPDLC if half of the ATC centers don’t have CPDLC yet.
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Old 14th Jan 2019, 18:13
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Where can we find the exemption list?
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Old 15th Jan 2019, 01:22
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Possibly here but the whole EU Regulation thing is an impenetrable mess, so by now it may have been superseded/amended/corrected/buried in soft peat and/or eaten by leopards which are guarding it in the designated repository* where the original document is, of course, available to view at any time.

*Repository is an unmarked cellar. There is NO placard warning about the leopards. There are no stairs either. There IS a warning about the stairs being missing, however it is in a locked filing cabinet on the third floor. Of a different building. (With apologies to the late, great Douglas Adams who saw all this nonsense coming years ago).
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Old 15th Jan 2019, 05:22
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What about aircraft not listed in the annex but are no longer in production? Hawker 800 for example?
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Old 15th Jan 2019, 10:46
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Originally Posted by imriozer View Post
What about aircraft not listed in the annex but are no longer in production? Hawker 800 for example?

Regulation 29/2009 (as amended) applicability/exemptions
Article 3 Operators - DLS Capability by 5 Feb 2020, except:
• aircraft C of A first issued before 1 January 2014 and fitted with data link equipment (FANS)
• aircraft C of A first issued before 31 December 2003 ceasing operation before 31 December 2022
• state aircraft
• Testing/delivery/maintenance.
Article 14 Exemptions Criteria eligibility
• aircraft types reaching the end of their production life and being produced in limited numbers; and
• aircraft types for which reengineering costs required would be disproportionate due to old design.

Regulation applicable from 5 February 2018.
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Old 15th Jan 2019, 16:05
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Just curious... Can aircraft be fitted with FANS or ATN, in order to meet the mandate?
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 06:37
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Originally Posted by Cough View Post
Just curious... Can aircraft be fitted with FANS or ATN, in order to meet the mandate?
FANS is acceptable
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 07:46
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From my experience, ATN doesn't work in Europe.
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Old 20th Jan 2019, 21:35
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Originally Posted by DEEC View Post
From my experience, ATN doesn't work in Europe.
Which is ironic as ATN-B1 is a system designed for Europe as where the rest of the world uses FANS-1A 😂😂
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Old 20th Jan 2019, 21:39
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Originally Posted by B737-800W View Post

FANS is acceptable
Depends where in the world. In Europe FANS only works when transitioning from Oceanic in Shannon, London and Maastricht. They have both FANS and ATN. the rest Europe will only have ATN as FANS uses ADS-C and not ADS-B
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 14:22
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Got an answer from Eurocontrol & the EC to this question:

My name is xx and I fly a Cessna C680 for a German company. I found your name on the DLS Exemption Cell Third Consolidated Report dated in may 2013.

I realize you have moved on, but can you point me someone actually in charge for this sorry mess CPDLC is for us in the field ?

Nobody seems really to know wether our aircraft is/will be exempt and who really is in charge…Cessna just sent me the report and wrote „this document deals with the exemption“. Now a mere recommendation of exemption won´t really help now, would it ?
I have found this list, NOT containing our aircraft:

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...er_29_2009.pdf
Well, could you either give me an answer or point me to whom I would have to write now ?
Would appreciate it, thanks.
Thats the response:

Thanks again for your question and for your patience whilst we discussed the subject with the European Commission. Herewith our response based on those discussions and our own information.

To begin with, please find attached, for your information, a link to Commission Regulation (EC) No 29/2009 laying down requirements on data link services for the single European sky (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...X%3A32009R0029) amended by Commission Implementing Regulation (EU) 2015/310 (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...X%3A32015R0310).

As far as Data Link Services are concerned, the two existing decisions (Commission Decision C(2011) 2611 final of 20.5.2011 on exemptions under Article 14 of Commission Regulation (EC) N° 29/2009 and Commission Implementing Decision C(2011) 9074 final of 9.12.2011 on exemptions under Article 14 of Commission Regulation (EC) N° 29/2009) are still applicable. They are available from the EC website at the following URLs:

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...009_fin_en.pdf

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...er_29_2009.pdf

A third Decision, that had been planned some time ago, was never adopted.

The EC is currently working on a minor revision of the Data Link Services Regulation to be followed in due time by a revised and consolidated decision on exemptions. For this decision, they will take due account of the retrofit costs for ageing aircraft reaching their end of life as well as a more recent report prepared by EASA (version 1.3, October 2017) on the basis of the EUROCONTROL report of 2013. These updates of the legal framework will most probably be adopted in the coming months.

Regarding your specific question, considering the existing Decisions in force, aircraft of type Cessna C680 are not currently exempted. The first Decision indicated above did exempt this aircraft type but only for a short period of time which is now over. EASA suggest in their report of 2017 mentioned above that aircraft of that type should be exempted with the exception of the Sovereign+ model still in production and equipped with G5000.

The EC confirmed to us that these matters will be examined during the preparation of the third Decision on exemptions indicated above. We believe that the EC intends to publish this in the coming months along with the amendment to the regulation.

In short, although avionic solutions have evolved since 2013, the EC is still considering to exempt specific variants of the C680 for the 3rd decision. In other words, variants that are still under production are not likely to be exempt, older variants are being reviewed.

Hope this helps
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Old 1st Feb 2019, 07:49
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Just talked to EASA, the gentleman there said he hopes that the EC will come out with their final decision in 1-2 months and that they follow their proposal:

In addition, we proposed a list of automatic exemptions including one which is specific for aircraft 19 pax or less and less than 100000 lbs, with a Cof A prior to 5 Feb 2020.
I believe that except the criteria for non-commercial, EC should accept the rest of the proposals.



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Old 1st Feb 2019, 09:57
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I believe that except the criteria for non-commercial,
So they push us to fly private?
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Old 1st Feb 2019, 11:42
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Wouldn´t say that, Eurocontrol & EASA apparently wanted to exempt all pvt ops aircraft. The gentleman I talked to meant, that this might be a tad to broad for the EC. If you´re below 100.000lbs and 19 seats the chances are good for an exemption. That said, aircraft that are in this category and are able (say G5000 equipped A/C) will not be exempt. In our case, operating a "classic" C680 (Honeywell EPIC), we would be exempt, if we´d upgrade to a C680+ (G5000 equipped) we wouldn´t. However, there should be a clearer understanding who is exempt and who is not within 1-2 months, if the EC does their job.

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Old 1st Feb 2019, 16:49
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His dudeness do you think a privatly 2009 Challenger 300 with "old" Collins Proline 21 would be exempt?
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Old 1st Feb 2019, 20:05
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Originally Posted by 3pins View Post
His dudeness do you think a privatly 2009 Challenger 300 with "old" Collins Proline 21 would be exempt?
Given that "my" C680 is just 2 years older and the 300 has been around roughly as long as the C680, I ´d say yes, it should be exempted as well. Now I don´t know wether the EC has had direct discussions with either Collins for the 300 and/or Honeywell for our kite, but the EASA/Eurocontrol approach is, that privately operated older aircraft don´t fly that much and thus the expense for the operator wouldn´t be warranted. (I personally have my doubts that CPDLC will bring a real benefit in capacity...) We´ll have to wait until the EC has decided though.
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