Part NCC Stuff

[g450cpt]

Ok, and this part 91 operations are under the radar of the Easa.

This is the problem...

Will a N plane based in europe be able to operate withh FAA pilots after August ?

No a part 91 operator is not "under the radar" of EASA. They have to comply with all applicable regulations pertaining to FAR part 91 (private flights not for hire) as well as any applicable regulations in whatever foreign country they may be flying in at the moment.
As for your other question. If the operator of the aircraft is not based in EASA land then they can operate the aircraft as they would anywhere else in the world. It does not matter where the owner lives or where the aircraft is stationed at that present time, as long as the operator's base of operations is outside of Europe then they can use FAA pilots. If the operator is a management company based in Europe then it becomes a problem.

g450cpt

[Someflyer]

I'm a bit lost know.

While reading this post and the tread concerning the N reg pilots flying around Europe, It's getting me confused.

Considering the deadline for the EASA licenses has been pushed (still waiting for the official announcement to arrive before May 7th), Can someone explain to me, in layman terms, how does part NCC regulations now effect the pilots who are flying the part NCC compliant aircraft ??

Basically, after this delay, can I still fly an N reg plane, based in Europe, after 8 of August, under part NCC, still using my FAA ticket ?? and if not then why ?

Thanks in advance to everyone who answer...

[Marlon Brando]

I tried to understand that myself.
I'm done trying to now.

Will see

[this is my username]

CAA have issued an updated opt-out on licencing here:

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/1171.pdf

Paragraph 5 is the relevant one - only extends to August 2016 if "the pilot receives any remuneration or other valuable consideration for their services" - I guess that ties in the with the implementation of Part-NCC??

[Beaver100]

I don't see the relevance of the part NCC August date for this regulation if you are paid. Part NCC has nothing to do with holding an EASA licence or validation of a third country licence so it's laughable to see it included with the document.

[moonym20]

I suspect they will be sneaking licence requirements through with Part-NCC?? Why else would they only delay until August?

If you read IN-2016/041 you will see it is only binding to UK airspace... my question now is, we have say France who have not delayed and you want to fly from the UK to Spain... is your flight through France now illegal because you do not hold a validation/Part-FCL?? same applies to a tech stop in France.

The CAA are telling me if you have a SAFA check (lets say now after August 25th) and do not have a validation or Part-FCL.... your plane will be detained until the crew have a relevant validation/licence....

Thoughts.........

[Beaver100]

Interesting. Who told you that at the CAA ?

[Above The Clouds]

I suspect they will be sneaking licence requirements through with Part-NCC?? Why else would they only delay until August?

Maybe they are waiting for the results of the Brexit referendum in June, I am guessing but if the UK leave the EU all the licensing will possibly change again.

[Someflyer]

That's wishful thinking.
Even If the Brexit will happen (And I do hope it will), the UK CAA will continue to be part of EASA or at least follow EASA guidelines because that will be the easiest thing to do for them.

It seems that I can't get a straight answer from anyone nowhere. I'm still trying to understand which part of part-NCC which suppose to be dealing only with operating a non commercial complex aircraft suddenly became a limitation to 3rd country pilots ?

Or in the words of someone I just spoke to in the FAA ".. one of those sleek bastards manged to sneak this in under our noses..."

[Beaver100]

Someflyer, you have my sympathies. You won't find anything that states that part NCC includes 3rd country licence restrictions, and that's because there isn't anything. Part NCC has nothing to do with licences although certain individuals have jumped on the bandwagon to include it which they most definitely should not.
It's good you have called the FAA, good to get them involved in this rubbish, maybe you could knock it higher up there in their legal department ?

There are currently two completely different statements from Brussels and the UK CAA. According to a working group of third country licenced pilots the team in Brussels responsible for the derogation meant for it to be EU wide and not airspace or country restrictive. Also they have stated that all pilots paid or unpaid in private operations are allowed to fly unrestricted until at least 8th April 2017.
This is in writing and many of the third country licenced pilots in this situation have had visibility of the emails from the MEP's responsible for the regulation assuring them legally that they are fine to fly. Should you wish a copy of this them pm your email address as this information can hardly be argued with in any court of law. Print it out, and take it with you on your flights. The MEP has given permission for this information to be shared and for them to be contacted if necessary for verbal confirmation.

[Someflyer]

Beaver,

Thank you for this info. I will PM you shortly to get copies of the MEP's mails. I've just got a termination of contract letter citing part NCC as the main cause and I'm absolutely livid.

If i'm getting sacked, the least the boss can do is to tell it straight and not hide behind some misinterpreted regulations.


There is too much confusion about who and what it's becoming (Sorry, it is already) an absurd........

[Mike Echo]

I was really going to keep out of this but a couple of things came to mind;
The FAA will have no interest whatsoever in what happens in EASA land.
FAR 91.Subpart H, addresses the U.S. commitment to the Treaty. Specifically 91.703(a)(2) states: “When within a foreign country, comply with the regulations relating to the flight and manoeuvre of aircraft there in force;”
Basically U.S. operators are required by FAR to operate in compliance with the requirements where operations take place.
To the FAA the aircraft and crew are fully certified and qualified - which ends their oversight. The fact that EASA are adding their own requirements potentially grounding third country if they feel like it would have to be taken to an even higher level than the FAA and get Lawyers involved. Mainly US pressure curtailed a lot of the Emissions Trading scheme nonsense but the airlines and AOC Operators are not affected by Part NCC.

I really wouldn't hold my breath awaiting a FAA legal interpretation.

I'm not sure of the SAFA check as there is nothing (that I know about) where they tick off the Operators base of operations, which is crucial for deciding if Part NCC applies, for non commercial operations (There is in the AOC section). There will be many thousands of Third country aircraft passing through the EU so how they are going to work out who is based in the EU or not could be quite difficult. Grounding a perfectly serviceable aircraft and certified crew on safety grounds is ridiculous but I suppose could and will be done.

Part NCC does not containing anything specific about licences. However, being old and very cynical, when the Part NCC declaration form is signed
Part of the statement in this states “All flights will be carried out in accordance with the procedures and instructions specified in the operations manual”. Part of the Ops manual is sure to contain some line as to complying with a countries regulations.
There are much cleverer people than me who may know better.

Like a lot of EASA regulation the whole issue is complex and badly written. The problems tend to occur with what is not written.

What a mess, so I'll continue planning my retirement

M.E.

[moonym20]

Beaver,

Send me a PM and I will happily share what I have been told about detaining aircraft.

There's no surprise someone, somewhere is trying hard to put an end to the whole Third Country licencing issue.

It cyclical and has been for years. Who remembers when the DFT made a specific attempt to have N-Reg and N-Reg pilots banned outright in the UK? How quickly was that put to bed when the right folks started to kick up a stink... then a different tactic was tried, one of the previous years was only delayed in part because a group of professional aircrew took on a solicitor to poke holes and look for probability of a successful outcome if they went to court (and there was)... this time it seems that the whole Third Country licencing issue is turning into such a bloody mess they will make another attempt via Part-NCC perhaps to block it??

Its priceless when your own NAA claim to know absolutely nothing of any BSA, when you furnish proof to the contrary they stick their heads in the sand and say its nothing to do with them,,, they're not 'privy' to such discussions.

To anyone hoping we get the 'good' old CAA back after Brexit, it will never happen ... EASA is here to stay (sadly)...

I keep saying it and will continue to do so... Politics has NO place in aviation

[this is my username]

and another one ... :

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/...ice2016041.pdf

[mattman]

Ok so please all explain, am I F00ked now? Or am I F00ked later?

This is so stupid now

[Beaver100]

The 25th August part NCC date on the information notice link above has no relevance to flight crew licenses, the UK CAA know this. Ignore it and continue flying until at least April 2017 when this mess will likely be delayed again. Euro parliament have confirmed that 25 August 2016 does not apply to remunerated pilots of private flight ops.

[Hawker 800]

Care to paste a link to confirm that, Beaver?

[Beaver100]

An old colleague has it directly via email from the lead MEP from the EU TRAN committee who approved the unrestricted delay (both unrestricted in EU airspace and unrestricted remunerated or non remunerated pilots) to 8 Apr 17. In their own words they represent all EU countries and all committees

[mattman]

Oh well! I don't understand anymore.

I am going to put my pink furry handcuffs in my flight bag and wait patiently at the door of every landing for the sky cops to come get me.

If I am going down, I am going down in style !!!

[BizJetJock]

Beaver, the problem is that it doesn't make any difference if the MEPs say "we didn't mean that". It's what is actually written that will be enforced. This is equally common in UK law, not confined to EU/EASA!
This is nothing to do with NCC per se, just the CAA have decided to use the same date.
The important thing is that this is an operator requirement, so this notice from the CAA affects UK operators. If, as someone has posted, France has decided not to take up the derogation at all then all French operators should already be complying. Of course, in France nobody pays any attention to such regs so everyone there is happy.