Private Aviation.... the moral dilemma!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: London
Age: 50
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Private Aviation.... the moral dilemma!
It would be totaly hypocritical to start trying to take the moral high ground. All of us who fly private aircraft for more than a few years will have taken our thirty pieces of silver....and sold our souls. we are all Judases to an extent. We have to be to do this job.
Routine makes one imune to the obscenity of daily throwing away hundreds if not thousands of pounds worth of the very finest food and drink that money can buy....excessively uploaded just in case our well sated charges might fancy something a bit more...
We turn a blind eye to the excesses of Z list celebrities who thanks to Simon Cowel and X factor have graduated from sleeping under arches to flying private jets in a matter of weeks and havent the first clue how to handle their elevation to gods by vacuous mass hysteria.
We dance to the tune of our billionaires who expect us to turn a blind eye to their affairs and omit to mention the "last business trip" next time we fly their wives to get their hair or nails done in Moscow ( no one good enough in London apparently) .
Mrs is taking the Global to LA next week on her own to do a little shopping because she is bored.
If all this was private money it would be bad enough but it is not. Many of these excesses are funded by PLC companies with public shareholders....upon whom we rely for dividends in our pension funds. The last example I have quoted of bored Mrs Fat Bum's shopping trip to LA is on an aircraft that is paid for by a London FTSE 250 company which has not paid a dividend for years and whose share price is heading for ever relentlessly down...currently fifty percent below its level two years ago. Due to the clevernesses of accountants and lawyers this running sewer depleting precious funds at the whim of the CEO and his family is so concealed that no one seems any the wiser.....least of all Its over paid auditors ( maybe there is a clue there)
This is a squalid industry.....so how do you work in it with a clean conscience? Maybe you cant.
Discuss!!!
Routine makes one imune to the obscenity of daily throwing away hundreds if not thousands of pounds worth of the very finest food and drink that money can buy....excessively uploaded just in case our well sated charges might fancy something a bit more...
We turn a blind eye to the excesses of Z list celebrities who thanks to Simon Cowel and X factor have graduated from sleeping under arches to flying private jets in a matter of weeks and havent the first clue how to handle their elevation to gods by vacuous mass hysteria.
We dance to the tune of our billionaires who expect us to turn a blind eye to their affairs and omit to mention the "last business trip" next time we fly their wives to get their hair or nails done in Moscow ( no one good enough in London apparently) .
Mrs is taking the Global to LA next week on her own to do a little shopping because she is bored.
If all this was private money it would be bad enough but it is not. Many of these excesses are funded by PLC companies with public shareholders....upon whom we rely for dividends in our pension funds. The last example I have quoted of bored Mrs Fat Bum's shopping trip to LA is on an aircraft that is paid for by a London FTSE 250 company which has not paid a dividend for years and whose share price is heading for ever relentlessly down...currently fifty percent below its level two years ago. Due to the clevernesses of accountants and lawyers this running sewer depleting precious funds at the whim of the CEO and his family is so concealed that no one seems any the wiser.....least of all Its over paid auditors ( maybe there is a clue there)
This is a squalid industry.....so how do you work in it with a clean conscience? Maybe you cant.
Discuss!!!
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Oz
Age: 49
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you complete your end of the bargain, keep Mr and Mrs blah happy and preferably married to each other, the shopping makes home intact and most importantly catering is spot on... Life is good.
Could be very awkward concealing trips, I reckon you are immediately in a lose lose situation with that, and extremely compromised. Thank Budha I've never been in that position.
My position is where the cash is coming from isn't your problem in terms of morals anyway. The accountants will have to live with the consequences of solid audit and public scrutiny. Perhaps it's not an employees' position to question the financial management of a company? I don't know!!
I haven't met many partners of the owner that knew the business well enough to be able to believe their 'opinion' of where the cash comes from. I reckon they just don't know most the time.
As for your investments and pensions etc, perhaps too many eggs in the basket?
Could be very awkward concealing trips, I reckon you are immediately in a lose lose situation with that, and extremely compromised. Thank Budha I've never been in that position.
My position is where the cash is coming from isn't your problem in terms of morals anyway. The accountants will have to live with the consequences of solid audit and public scrutiny. Perhaps it's not an employees' position to question the financial management of a company? I don't know!!
I haven't met many partners of the owner that knew the business well enough to be able to believe their 'opinion' of where the cash comes from. I reckon they just don't know most the time.
As for your investments and pensions etc, perhaps too many eggs in the basket?
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Where the Money Takes Me
Posts: 947
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This industry has suffered and continues to suffer enough without trying to add another nail in its coffin.
Only last week a listed Swedish company was forced to replace some of its hierarchy due to private jet indulgence and indeed, most governments in democracies in Europe are scared $hitless when it comes to making a decision about a replacement aircraft or even using private aircraft.
I guess I'm biased working in the industry however, if "one of our own" BuzzB decides to try and blow the lid further on corporate excess then I think that's a tad foolish. You'd be a media darling - well, for 24 hours at least.
My argument is, if I wasn't doing it, there'd be plenty more willing to take my place.
Only last week a listed Swedish company was forced to replace some of its hierarchy due to private jet indulgence and indeed, most governments in democracies in Europe are scared $hitless when it comes to making a decision about a replacement aircraft or even using private aircraft.
I guess I'm biased working in the industry however, if "one of our own" BuzzB decides to try and blow the lid further on corporate excess then I think that's a tad foolish. You'd be a media darling - well, for 24 hours at least.
My argument is, if I wasn't doing it, there'd be plenty more willing to take my place.
Okay, I'll bite. How about, "Ignorance is bliss"?
Obviously you have much more insight into the specific financial wrangling that pays for your aircrafts operation than in the charter world. May I suggest a change of operation?
In charter we see a lot of wealthy individuals. However, I fly an aircraft size that seems to be popular with a lot of self-made business men. They have all proven polite, interesting and, from the odd few I've Googled their rise to wealth, have been exceptionally hard workers. Now, I'm under no illusion that in order to claw your way to the top some tough decisions may have been made, but all my clients are polite and appreciative of the service. They're business owners who view the aircraft as a tool to get the job done.
In your case, where it's private ops, maybe having a philosophical firewall might help. As long as the finances in the flight department are in order, then that's the extent of your oversight. Maybe that philosophy will help you get through the day for a few more months.
Alternatively, whilst the food is quite wasteful, the crew often wolfs it down for lunch if it's untouched. Or the fueler. Catering creates jobs, and an insane amount of profit for someone. (€70 for a kettle's worth of boiling water.) Anyway, I digress. I think the 'waste' argument is a fallacy when it comes to the World's less fortunate - the argument that scraping food into bins is essentially taking it directly out of a starving mouth is too facile. Having witnessed aid first hand, I have a much more jaded viewpoint of the effectiveness of direct aid; but that seems a much larger discussion than just a random bitch about your employer.
One thing is for sure, once you become embittered about something it will only ulcerate your soul as you feel impotent to effect change. I would strongly suggest a change of scenery.
Obviously you have much more insight into the specific financial wrangling that pays for your aircrafts operation than in the charter world. May I suggest a change of operation?
In charter we see a lot of wealthy individuals. However, I fly an aircraft size that seems to be popular with a lot of self-made business men. They have all proven polite, interesting and, from the odd few I've Googled their rise to wealth, have been exceptionally hard workers. Now, I'm under no illusion that in order to claw your way to the top some tough decisions may have been made, but all my clients are polite and appreciative of the service. They're business owners who view the aircraft as a tool to get the job done.
In your case, where it's private ops, maybe having a philosophical firewall might help. As long as the finances in the flight department are in order, then that's the extent of your oversight. Maybe that philosophy will help you get through the day for a few more months.
Alternatively, whilst the food is quite wasteful, the crew often wolfs it down for lunch if it's untouched. Or the fueler. Catering creates jobs, and an insane amount of profit for someone. (€70 for a kettle's worth of boiling water.) Anyway, I digress. I think the 'waste' argument is a fallacy when it comes to the World's less fortunate - the argument that scraping food into bins is essentially taking it directly out of a starving mouth is too facile. Having witnessed aid first hand, I have a much more jaded viewpoint of the effectiveness of direct aid; but that seems a much larger discussion than just a random bitch about your employer.
One thing is for sure, once you become embittered about something it will only ulcerate your soul as you feel impotent to effect change. I would strongly suggest a change of scenery.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thought provoking thread!
I have to say the greater obscenity would be seeing my wife and kids on the street because I couldnt pay my mortgage.
Sometimes youve just got to do what youve got to do with the deck of cards life hands you.
I have to say the greater obscenity would be seeing my wife and kids on the street because I couldnt pay my mortgage.
Sometimes youve just got to do what youve got to do with the deck of cards life hands you.
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In an ever changing place
Posts: 1,039
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BuzzB
Sorry to hear about your dilemma, however thats life in many areas of the bizjet market. If you feel its something you cannot continue with then please PM me I will gladly fill the position.
Sorry to hear about your dilemma, however thats life in many areas of the bizjet market. If you feel its something you cannot continue with then please PM me I will gladly fill the position.
Last edited by Above The Clouds; 3rd Feb 2015 at 13:48. Reason: typo
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Welsh Riviera
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BuzzB
I can live with my conscience. It's their money, they can do what they want with it. Most HNWIs also give generously to charities and their companies provide millions of jobs worldwide.
If you really want to go to town, what about their yacht captains and crew? Their chauffeurs? The people who are employed to build and service their aircraft, yachts and cars? Let's put them all out of jobs and see what that does to the economy. On the plus side, your conscience will be happier....
Happy flying all,
McD
If you really want to go to town, what about their yacht captains and crew? Their chauffeurs? The people who are employed to build and service their aircraft, yachts and cars? Let's put them all out of jobs and see what that does to the economy. On the plus side, your conscience will be happier....
Happy flying all,
McD
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: eastcoastoz
Age: 76
Posts: 1,699
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Moral dilemmas
Through my working life, I'd found myself in a few situations where I wasn't entirely happy with what was going on around me - moral or otherwise.
I discovered a very helpful piece of wisdom that I have to keep recalling at such times.
It's often called the Serenity Prayer (and I'm not religious).
"May I be granted the SERENITY to accept the things I cannot change..
The COURAGE to change the things I can..
And the WISDOM to know the difference."
Think about it..
It works for me.
I discovered a very helpful piece of wisdom that I have to keep recalling at such times.
It's often called the Serenity Prayer (and I'm not religious).
"May I be granted the SERENITY to accept the things I cannot change..
The COURAGE to change the things I can..
And the WISDOM to know the difference."
Think about it..
It works for me.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: UK. East Mids.
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A lot of interesting comments and thoughts
As someone still relatively new to the word of private aviation, I have to admit that some parts of the associated cost to what I do during a trip, and the way it is viewed by a charter company or by the flight crew has taken me aback a little. But, for me it is a case of a mind set adjustment coming from a commercial operator where everything is about penny pinching and the likes.
The main bit I am, of course, involved in is the catering. Commercially, I don't think about it. I get on a plane and everything is just "there". But, when I get to see catering bills on the aircraft, and see how much individual items cost, it is certainly a little breath taking at times. However, the more experience I have gained, the more I understand the costs to the supplier and their suppliers too. And, yes, there is waste, but there will always be waste from humans. I order food based on a flight length, departure time, arrival time, passenger profile and history etc. but if he/she/they get on and decide they are just tired and want to sleep Who am I to worry? They have paid for it.
As for their financial affairs, they are no business of mine. As long as I get paid for the job I have done and any expenses in regard to the flights worked reimbursed, then I am happy. It I get a "thank you", all the better, if not, no worries.
As someone still relatively new to the word of private aviation, I have to admit that some parts of the associated cost to what I do during a trip, and the way it is viewed by a charter company or by the flight crew has taken me aback a little. But, for me it is a case of a mind set adjustment coming from a commercial operator where everything is about penny pinching and the likes.
The main bit I am, of course, involved in is the catering. Commercially, I don't think about it. I get on a plane and everything is just "there". But, when I get to see catering bills on the aircraft, and see how much individual items cost, it is certainly a little breath taking at times. However, the more experience I have gained, the more I understand the costs to the supplier and their suppliers too. And, yes, there is waste, but there will always be waste from humans. I order food based on a flight length, departure time, arrival time, passenger profile and history etc. but if he/she/they get on and decide they are just tired and want to sleep Who am I to worry? They have paid for it.
As for their financial affairs, they are no business of mine. As long as I get paid for the job I have done and any expenses in regard to the flights worked reimbursed, then I am happy. It I get a "thank you", all the better, if not, no worries.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Eire/HK
Posts: 590
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Buzz, I sleep perfectly sound at night because, well, what my Boss does is NON of my business!!! I am not a share holder in His company, I am employed to fly His aeroplane and thats what I do. I respect the fact that He has got to where He is, thats it. He treats us well, He notifies us of delays etc, we stay in good hotels in some great places around the world. As for the excesses, well He has numerous houses around the world and a big boat, so I hardly think the catering waste on the aeroplane is that excessive. Our FA is also very good at separating the un-used catering and offering it to the ground crew.
At the end of the day, do your job and let Him and His people worry about His job.
At the end of the day, do your job and let Him and His people worry about His job.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 57
Posts: 2,438
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BTW, should a Porsche mechanic feel guilty too ? Or a high price watch dealer ?
What about real estate agents ?
Or politicians, who have no issue at all in making the chances as uneven as possible and opening the flood gates to pure capitalism ? Or is anyone here thinking that Schengen, the Euro, the free trade stuff has anything to do with what the people need and not what the corporations want ?
To me, there are a lot of people that would need to do something about their conscience before I have to worry. BTW, our airplane is purely used for business trips (of whom a lot could be done with the airlines...I agree to that, but I donīt complain about having a job...)
What about real estate agents ?
Or politicians, who have no issue at all in making the chances as uneven as possible and opening the flood gates to pure capitalism ? Or is anyone here thinking that Schengen, the Euro, the free trade stuff has anything to do with what the people need and not what the corporations want ?
To me, there are a lot of people that would need to do something about their conscience before I have to worry. BTW, our airplane is purely used for business trips (of whom a lot could be done with the airlines...I agree to that, but I donīt complain about having a job...)
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do not see any dilemma. There are people pushing a 40 year old mercedes benz with black smoker diesel engine every day through the streets and there are some guys flying from Moscow to London for shopping, so what? We all travel far too less to get to know the rest of the worlds people and avoid war by this. You can always construct strange comparison, either way.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You presume business jet owners are all playboys/girls all joining the mile high club with the latest paid for 21 yr old and knocking back the Moet at a faster rate than the jet knocks back jet A1?
Not my guys! Totally business tool to get from A to B to C to D In obscure places What catering required ? NONE ! Bring their own sandwiches and usually fall asleep under a duvet cover till we land
Off at 0200 to make a breakfast meeting in some country 2 hrs ahead of our time
Say they will be back by 1700 and turn up at 2000
And moan about the price of everything
But maybe thats how it should be ? Whats that job for medivac?
Pace
Not my guys! Totally business tool to get from A to B to C to D In obscure places What catering required ? NONE ! Bring their own sandwiches and usually fall asleep under a duvet cover till we land
Off at 0200 to make a breakfast meeting in some country 2 hrs ahead of our time
Say they will be back by 1700 and turn up at 2000
And moan about the price of everything
But maybe thats how it should be ? Whats that job for medivac?
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 5th Feb 2015 at 18:54.
