Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Biz Jets, Ag Flying, GA etc.
Reload this Page >

Challenger crash at KASE

Biz Jets, Ag Flying, GA etc. The place for discussion of issues related to corporate, Ag and GA aviation. If you're a professional pilot and don't fly for the airlines then try here.

Challenger crash at KASE

Old 6th Jan 2014, 03:01
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: CYUL
Posts: 845
If the tailwind/windshear conditions hold true for a landing on RWY 15 then they had no business being there and trying a second time after their initial missed approach.

That airport is already a hole to start with, never mind having to deal with bad wx conditions, circlings (especially at night) or trying to land with a tailwind that exceeds the manufacturers limits.

Our company policy for KASE is a "DAY VFR" operation only and with a 604 we take a minimum load out of there and go to Denver for a technical stop.

Last edited by Jet Jockey A4; 6th Jan 2014 at 03:12.
Jet Jockey A4 is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2014, 03:12
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: UK. East Mids.
Posts: 435
Sad news I hope the survivors make a speedy recovery.
Tray Surfer is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2014, 03:19
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: CYUL
Posts: 845
Like I said in the Biz Jet forum...

If the tailwind/windshear conditions hold true for a landing on RWY 15 then they had no business being there and trying a second time after their initial missed approach.

That airport is already a hole to start with, never mind having to deal with bad wx conditions, circlings (especially at night) or trying to land with a tailwind that exceeds the manufacturers limits.

Our company policy for KASE is a "DAY VFR" operation only and with a 604 we take a minimum load out of there and go to Denver for a technical stop.
Jet Jockey A4 is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2014, 03:42
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: CYUL
Posts: 845
Definitely a 601 model with that door...

Jet Jockey A4 is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2014, 03:58
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 358
Airfield details:

ASE - Aspen-Pitkin Co/Sardy Field Airport | SkyVector
Shaman is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2014, 04:02
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Up north
Posts: 1,617
Aircraft registered with Mexican owner since early October 2013. Ownership address is a C/O address for a company (operator?) registered in Mexico City.
CaptainProp is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2014, 04:12
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1
These guys make it looks so easy...

Aspen Landing 2013:
phollard is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2014, 04:21
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
Age: 67
Posts: 3,332
Is a 601 door different than 604/605?

GF
galaxy flyer is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2014, 04:40
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: CYUL
Posts: 845
Yes it is in a small way...

On the 604/605 they incorporated a small trap door that pops open prior to the main door opening and it is located above the door handle.

It's a bad picture I know but as you can see the handle is within the red stripe. If you look just above the stripe you can see the outline of that small pop out trap door.

The crashed Challenger's door does not have that pop out trap door making it a 601 model.

Jet Jockey A4 is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2014, 04:43
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: CYUL
Posts: 845
Yes on a clear beautiful day with most likely minimal turbulence, windshear or tailwinds on the approach.
Jet Jockey A4 is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2014, 05:06
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: The world is my home
Posts: 12
4 white PAPI lights and rather long landing...
wingspan68 is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2014, 05:13
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Not far from a big Lake
Age: 77
Posts: 1,458
4 white PAPI lights and rather long landing.
That approach is visually very deceptive since the runway runs uphill significantly in that direction.

Fly the PAPI lights or you might have to climb to make it to the runway.
Machinbird is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2014, 06:51
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 0A
Posts: 7,875
4 white PAPI lights and rather long landing.
That approach is visually very deceptive since the runway runs uphill significantly in that direction.
In that case you'd expect to see 4 Red PAPI lights...
Capn Bloggs is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2014, 07:10
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Not far from a big Lake
Age: 77
Posts: 1,458
In that case you'd expect to see 4 Red PAPI lights.
I think I did by the time I could pick them out.
I was expecting the illusion, and it still caught me by surprise!
Machinbird is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2014, 07:10
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Victoria
Age: 72
Posts: 69
red and white PAPI

Actually the PAPI is set for the designated GS ie 3.0/3.25/3.5 to the touchdown point. Just follow the correct combo of red and white for your acft.

So regardless of the runway gradient or slope, you should follow the PAPI and touchdown at the chosen spot in the windshield.

This may give you a high rate of closure with the ground landing up slope so an early flare may be called for - conversely landing down slope will need a little less flare. In PNG we were routinely landing without aids at runways with up to 13% slope - and on one earthquake relief task for the UN in Irian Jaya, one section of one high DA mountain strip was 25% slope - made for some short landing rolls And lots of power to make the parking bay for the three point turn required to depart.
Flingwing47 is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2014, 07:13
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 93
Can't remember Vref, but a flap 20 landing would be easier, depending on runway required for their weight...
Latte tester is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2014, 07:27
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 20
Read in another forum both pilots at the controls were siblings and former Mexicana pilots...
diego727 is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2014, 07:59
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: The world is my home
Posts: 12
I'm actually surprised how many pilots are not able to follow the PAPI lights. Many times during line training I heard from the PF: I'll go below the PAPI on short final for a smoother landing Those guys really do not understand the physics of an aircraft...

By the way:
An earlier glideslope indicator system, the visual approach slope indicator (VASI) is now obsolete and was deleted from Annex 14 in 1995. The VASI only provided guidance down to heights of 60 meters (200 ft) whereas PAPI provides guidance down to flare initiation (typically 15 meters, or 50 ft).
wingspan68 is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2014, 08:17
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Surrounded by aluminum, and the great outdoors
Posts: 3,789
3-man crew positioning for pick-up...one of the FO's didn't survive.
ironbutt57 is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2014, 09:11
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SoCal and UK
Posts: 1,919
PAPI

The guys in the video seemed to be conscious about the PAPI situation. At about 0:45 the captain comments on 'four red' and then mentions a possible go-around ('vamos al aire'). Unfortunately there is some ATC audio during his comments, so not all is comprehensible.
172driver is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.