Netjets charges
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Lets have a slagging match, shall we ?
Allright then, you NJ skygods, if this is all you have to offer I´m quite disappointed...
What is it with you guys that you think you are so far superior? Or is it just a few on here - cause the guys one meets are usually a good bunch.
I for one am one of these "close the door and off we are" types... (my machine has an APU - that makes that way easier) and I fly always with the same colleague and the same pax. Hence no cabin briefing, hence no need to detail every and anything there is. Hence a very quick/short checklist.
We keep our briefings to the absolute minimum and the PNF does brief the PF after having recieved clearance and we usually brief only the first 3 numbers, initial hdg/track, Speed, altitude plus the 'what if' -> we both flew with guys that would chew ones ear off, with the result that no one remembers what he said in the beginning. We usually have the follow on flight plan in the box, saves you ages when you are not a tramp but know what you do next unlike you guys.
Works very well for us, at least in the sim we get good grades and we managed yet not to get a report etc.
You need airline style procedures because you are a bloody airline, but we aren`t and thus we operate as required for our type of ops.
BTW, in the Bravos I flew one has plenty of time to do checklists anyhow, since the gyros took a great deal of time to get stabilzed. In a CJ that goes within 30 to 45 seconds if P21 equipped...
Allright then, you NJ skygods, if this is all you have to offer I´m quite disappointed...
What is it with you guys that you think you are so far superior? Or is it just a few on here - cause the guys one meets are usually a good bunch.
I for one am one of these "close the door and off we are" types... (my machine has an APU - that makes that way easier) and I fly always with the same colleague and the same pax. Hence no cabin briefing, hence no need to detail every and anything there is. Hence a very quick/short checklist.
We keep our briefings to the absolute minimum and the PNF does brief the PF after having recieved clearance and we usually brief only the first 3 numbers, initial hdg/track, Speed, altitude plus the 'what if' -> we both flew with guys that would chew ones ear off, with the result that no one remembers what he said in the beginning. We usually have the follow on flight plan in the box, saves you ages when you are not a tramp but know what you do next unlike you guys.
Works very well for us, at least in the sim we get good grades and we managed yet not to get a report etc.
You need airline style procedures because you are a bloody airline, but we aren`t and thus we operate as required for our type of ops.
BTW, in the Bravos I flew one has plenty of time to do checklists anyhow, since the gyros took a great deal of time to get stabilzed. In a CJ that goes within 30 to 45 seconds if P21 equipped...
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Every now and then I stood next to another plane, pax with FO/CPT enters the plane, door closed and immediately off they taxi !
Airline standards ? Checklists ? Briefings ?
Airline standards ? Checklists ? Briefings ?
An after start check list on all Biz Jet types I have flown should take no longer than 1 minute, so perhaps you are not very familiar with your type. I can't imagine a taxi check taking more than 1, or possibly first flight of the day 2 mins, and if you need to spend more than 1 min (it is a long time you know) on your take off briefing you are boring the guy sat next to you. (For goodness sake, what needs to be stated other than where your routing is gonna take you, how high you're gonna go and what if?
Unlike some cowboys that I see on the ramp waiting for the customer with one engine running and racing off...........
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Like it is said above, you are talking about same people, same crew, same plane. On the other hand you are talking potentially a different crew pairing everyday, a different plane everyday, 4 different customers in the day. You CANNOT compare and you SHALL not compare.
Netjets charges Airborne time + and allowance for taxi.
Netjets is IOSA approved, and operates to this and other quality certification programs that they chose to operate from. This decision is their unique decision of operating. There is no race competition, only a slot to meet; the rest is only hangar talk, no more no less.
Can Netjets be a better company ? Yes of course, like every company, there are pros and cons; one thing is for sure, if they were to publish a job opening for crews tomorrow, they will be flooded by thousands of resumes; and even from people who took the options here and then.
As far as the check lists are concerned, this is so much type dependant, let 's do the 7X FBW test in itself...and you are killing yourself...
NJE pilots are not superior, they are standardized, airline type; good or bad is not the issue, it is just a standard. Some customers likes it , other not, this is called churn rate, and like in any corporation with a lot of competition around, you need to keep it at a minimum.
So marketing is paramount in this business, and Netjets is not that bad in marketing is it not ?
Enjoy your flying, whatever you do, single pilot in a SEP to a crew of 10 in the AN225, does not matter, as long as A : you can do it; B : you are enjoying yourself...
Netjets charges Airborne time + and allowance for taxi.
Netjets is IOSA approved, and operates to this and other quality certification programs that they chose to operate from. This decision is their unique decision of operating. There is no race competition, only a slot to meet; the rest is only hangar talk, no more no less.
Can Netjets be a better company ? Yes of course, like every company, there are pros and cons; one thing is for sure, if they were to publish a job opening for crews tomorrow, they will be flooded by thousands of resumes; and even from people who took the options here and then.
As far as the check lists are concerned, this is so much type dependant, let 's do the 7X FBW test in itself...and you are killing yourself...
NJE pilots are not superior, they are standardized, airline type; good or bad is not the issue, it is just a standard. Some customers likes it , other not, this is called churn rate, and like in any corporation with a lot of competition around, you need to keep it at a minimum.
So marketing is paramount in this business, and Netjets is not that bad in marketing is it not ?
Enjoy your flying, whatever you do, single pilot in a SEP to a crew of 10 in the AN225, does not matter, as long as A : you can do it; B : you are enjoying yourself...
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http://www.ainonline.com/sites/ainon...dfs/safety.pdf
Historically, the major scheduled airlines have had the fewest number of serious accidents and the lowest rate (the number of accidents per 100,000 flight hours), but in recent years corporate aviation has frequently surpassed the airlines.
For example, the statistics here show that last year corporate aviation had the lowest accident rate, followed by its fractional segment, with the major airlines in third place.
Air-taxi operations of both turbine and piston airplanes were ninth on the list, followed by regional airlines.
Also in keeping with the trend, general aviation as a single group had the highest accident rate when compared with the other 10 segments shown here.
To date, there still has been no fatal accident involving a fractional, and the sector’s accident rate (incidents per 100,000 hours) last year was the best of all segments of turbine-powered business aviation
Just my two cents, and maybe a good explanation why some customers are more than happy to pay the premium
Historically, the major scheduled airlines have had the fewest number of serious accidents and the lowest rate (the number of accidents per 100,000 flight hours), but in recent years corporate aviation has frequently surpassed the airlines.
For example, the statistics here show that last year corporate aviation had the lowest accident rate, followed by its fractional segment, with the major airlines in third place.
Air-taxi operations of both turbine and piston airplanes were ninth on the list, followed by regional airlines.
Also in keeping with the trend, general aviation as a single group had the highest accident rate when compared with the other 10 segments shown here.
To date, there still has been no fatal accident involving a fractional, and the sector’s accident rate (incidents per 100,000 hours) last year was the best of all segments of turbine-powered business aviation
Just my two cents, and maybe a good explanation why some customers are more than happy to pay the premium
Last edited by Delta12; 21st Mar 2013 at 23:26.
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But the point is that Netjets has always sold it's product on the guise that it is cheaper than any other way of getting into a private jet. This is simply not true. Having studied the numbers years ago I quickly came to the conclusion that it is one of the most expensive ways, short of ownership, yet still they lose money hand over fist!
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There is so many different contracts , depending on the plane , area, typology of flying, opt out option, put or call on selling share, etc.. that it is very unlikely that you could put these numbers right from only your perspective. the only person who knows, how good (or bad if it is the case) the deal is; is the customer who signed the deal. nobody else.
You just do not walk in, buy a couple of hours and go. the process , and business model is different. Therefore it is another segment of aviation charter. you cannot compare, or you can compare with another fractional operator; but not with a local one.
Competition is everywhere, and ressource is scarce ( AKA customer).
You will be surprised to see some balance sheet on fractional users compare to ownership or chartering, some numbers are just amazing... But you can draw the line only at the end of the contract. It is like selling a property, you know your profit when you have the money on your bank account, everything else is pure speculation. So except if you were a former Netjets customer, your words are just speculation, and not facts, aren't they?
You just do not walk in, buy a couple of hours and go. the process , and business model is different. Therefore it is another segment of aviation charter. you cannot compare, or you can compare with another fractional operator; but not with a local one.
Competition is everywhere, and ressource is scarce ( AKA customer).
You will be surprised to see some balance sheet on fractional users compare to ownership or chartering, some numbers are just amazing... But you can draw the line only at the end of the contract. It is like selling a property, you know your profit when you have the money on your bank account, everything else is pure speculation. So except if you were a former Netjets customer, your words are just speculation, and not facts, aren't they?
Last edited by CL300; 22nd Mar 2013 at 06:20.
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So except if you were a former Netjets customer, your words are just speculation, and not facts, aren't they?
Kelly Hopper,
I don't remembers a campaign that suggested that NetJets was the cheapest way to fly privately. Yes, they said cheaper than full ownership but that's all I can remember. It's true that they are expensive, not sure about the "losing money" bit in recent years.
I "think" from about 400hrs a year (depending on a lot of variables) full ownership is cheaper. But full ownership also means you still end up chartering when the aircraft goes tech or is in scheduled maintenance.
I don't remembers a campaign that suggested that NetJets was the cheapest way to fly privately. Yes, they said cheaper than full ownership but that's all I can remember. It's true that they are expensive, not sure about the "losing money" bit in recent years.
I "think" from about 400hrs a year (depending on a lot of variables) full ownership is cheaper. But full ownership also means you still end up chartering when the aircraft goes tech or is in scheduled maintenance.
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733driver
Agree with half your post. Net jets never marketed themselves as cheap. And I do think they have their place. But the break even point at net jets prices is way way less than 400 hours.
Agree with half your post. Net jets never marketed themselves as cheap. And I do think they have their place. But the break even point at net jets prices is way way less than 400 hours.
My employer is an ex-NJE customer and he spent quite a bit of time in my interview (as a former NJE pilot) telling me what was wrong with the company, cost never came into it.
Last edited by Globally Challenged; 22nd Mar 2013 at 10:02.
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Usage
Depends on where the principle is located (ie near a charter hub to eliminate reposition costs) and what kind of trips the principle is doing. Is he going out and back in a day or is he staying at the destination for a week? As a full charter customer one doesn't have much say in the age, type of plane, or crew that the charter operator uses. Does he only want to fly on newer aircraft. Is he will willing to buy a 1/16th share, 1/8 share or a 1/4 share? There are a lot of variables that come into play when you try to determine if charter, fractional, or full ownership is the best option. IMHO less that 100 hrs in a year, he is better off chartering (if the reposition or loss of revenue costs don't hurt too much). Between 100 hrs and 200 hrs is a good number to look at a fractional. Over 200 hrs in a year and he is better off with full ownership. All of this I have first hand experience with as I was chief pilot for an owner who cut his hours and wanted to go fractional. I was responsible for going over the fractional contracts and making sure all was legit. All contracts are a little different and each client has different needs, so one must do their homework to really find out what option best suits the principle.
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His dudness,
Having read your drivel, I am surprised to see your age as 46 !
I ask, most politely and respectively for your aircraft registration.....
....so that I can avoid you on the ramp ( and most definitely in the air ) at all costs.
Either you are having a laugh, and sh!t stirring ( something I too have been guilty of ), or you have a dangerous cavalier attitude to aviation, with scant regard to the safety of your crew, passengers or fellows pilots.
However, having ranted off, I do hope that no emergency befalls you or your aircraft, and that should that ever happen, it be at a time when you felt it "professional" to brief your crew and your pax.
cheers.
Oh, and cambioso...you are so wrong, I cant even describe it !!
Having read your drivel, I am surprised to see your age as 46 !
I ask, most politely and respectively for your aircraft registration.....
....so that I can avoid you on the ramp ( and most definitely in the air ) at all costs.
Either you are having a laugh, and sh!t stirring ( something I too have been guilty of ), or you have a dangerous cavalier attitude to aviation, with scant regard to the safety of your crew, passengers or fellows pilots.
However, having ranted off, I do hope that no emergency befalls you or your aircraft, and that should that ever happen, it be at a time when you felt it "professional" to brief your crew and your pax.
cheers.
Oh, and cambioso...you are so wrong, I cant even describe it !!
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If I am SO wrong.................Why can't you describe it??
Anyway, which bit,
- the standing on the ramp engines running for 10 mins, or the eye watering prices?
Anyway, which bit,
- the standing on the ramp engines running for 10 mins, or the eye watering prices?
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NJE charges only for take-off to landing.
Any fool can see that it is impossible to charge for ground time in totality as its an unknown quantity.
Youve obviously never been told youre number 12 for departure at LHR, FRA,MUN,VKO....the list is long.
As for the price they charge, WTF has that got to with you ? Or me?
Any fool can see that it is impossible to charge for ground time in totality as its an unknown quantity.
Youve obviously never been told youre number 12 for departure at LHR, FRA,MUN,VKO....the list is long.
As for the price they charge, WTF has that got to with you ? Or me?
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Charges
It has been mentioned on this thread that Netjet charge their customers only for airborne time plus an allowance for taxiing. Other people say they charge from when the engines start running. What is the correct version?
Anyway why are they charging anything other than airborne to touchdown times. To charge block hours or an allowance for taxiing is conning the clients. All their DOC costs for maintenance, engine programme, Nav fees are based on takeoff/touchdown times apart from a few pounds for taxi fuel. Are they charging the full "occupied rate" for the taxi allowance or just the cost of the fuel?
Our charges are only based on TO/Ldg times
It has been mentioned on this thread that Netjet charge their customers only for airborne time plus an allowance for taxiing. Other people say they charge from when the engines start running. What is the correct version?
Anyway why are they charging anything other than airborne to touchdown times. To charge block hours or an allowance for taxiing is conning the clients. All their DOC costs for maintenance, engine programme, Nav fees are based on takeoff/touchdown times apart from a few pounds for taxi fuel. Are they charging the full "occupied rate" for the taxi allowance or just the cost of the fuel?
Our charges are only based on TO/Ldg times
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As for waiting on stand ages before taxiing; I agree and it can sometimes mess other aircraft around. At some airports the " queue for departure" seems to depend on request for start time. You request start up 1 minute after Netjets, call for taxi 2 minutes later and have to wait for ages whilst Netjets gets it act together.
Our SOP's state that departure briefings, FMS set ups etc are all done prior to engine start. I agree that 2 minutes is perfectly feasable and safe to start 2 engines and do the after start checklist correctly and unrushed. Perhaps the reason we can do it is that we offer our customers a premium service with cabin attendant, whereas Netjets normally ask their pilots on the Hawkers to be coffee servers as well. That means both pilots are in their seats (airline style) when the passengers board and can devote their time to their duties without the time wasting of passenger briefings, showing the passengers were the peanuts are etc etc. I am surprised Netjet clients stand for all this waiting around.
Our SOP's state that departure briefings, FMS set ups etc are all done prior to engine start. I agree that 2 minutes is perfectly feasable and safe to start 2 engines and do the after start checklist correctly and unrushed. Perhaps the reason we can do it is that we offer our customers a premium service with cabin attendant, whereas Netjets normally ask their pilots on the Hawkers to be coffee servers as well. That means both pilots are in their seats (airline style) when the passengers board and can devote their time to their duties without the time wasting of passenger briefings, showing the passengers were the peanuts are etc etc. I am surprised Netjet clients stand for all this waiting around.
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From the Netjets Europe website : airborne time + 6 minutes each end.
When you fly, only occupied flying hours are deducted from your card, plus six minutes of taxi time at each end of the flight.
When you fly, only occupied flying hours are deducted from your card, plus six minutes of taxi time at each end of the flight.
Last edited by CL300; 25th Mar 2013 at 13:30.
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Thank you CL
So a round trip of 1 hour each way ie 120 minutes is charged as 144 minutes (2 hours + 4 x 6) .This is effectively increasing the rate by 20%. In the case of a citation the rate goes up from £4,000/Hr to £4,800/Hr. Do Netjet customers realise that 6 minutes of taxi tine costs about £30 not £400? I would think it rather sharp business practice not to point this out.
Am I Netjet bashing? Just a bit I suppose but the established charter businesses are getting rather hacked off at the attempts by one of the world's richest men to try and turn around a failed business model by further encroaching on the business models of others. Doing so by fair competition is one thing but by just throwing money at it and trying to convince customers that £4,800/Hr for a Citation is cost effictive is annoying to say the least.
So a round trip of 1 hour each way ie 120 minutes is charged as 144 minutes (2 hours + 4 x 6) .This is effectively increasing the rate by 20%. In the case of a citation the rate goes up from £4,000/Hr to £4,800/Hr. Do Netjet customers realise that 6 minutes of taxi tine costs about £30 not £400? I would think it rather sharp business practice not to point this out.
Am I Netjet bashing? Just a bit I suppose but the established charter businesses are getting rather hacked off at the attempts by one of the world's richest men to try and turn around a failed business model by further encroaching on the business models of others. Doing so by fair competition is one thing but by just throwing money at it and trying to convince customers that £4,800/Hr for a Citation is cost effictive is annoying to say the least.
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Then it is NOT a cost issue...Customers have the choice, you just cannot tie them to you for ever. If , at the end of the day you have a better deal than the competition, that you are doing your homework, you can even increase your prices, since your "prime competitor" is selling it's flights at an higher price than yours. I would have understood, if Netjets were to sell at a LOWER price, indeed, undermining the market; but it looks like it is not the case..
Question asked : where DO YOU FAIL ?
Question asked : where DO YOU FAIL ?
Last edited by CL300; 25th Mar 2013 at 16:46.
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It is not really a price of product issue it is a cash resources issue in so far as WB has enough money to mount an advertising campaign to convince the Arabs they need to buy sand. Spend enough and they will buy it. I cannot do that.
It is not really a price of product issue it is a cash resources issue in so far as WB has enough money to mount an advertising campaign to convince the Arabs they need to buy sand. Spend enough and they will buy it. I cannot do that.