Plane crashes on overrun in eastern Georgia, USA
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Seven,
I am the first guy in line to try to find why the guy upfront didn't screw up...but sometimes you are unnfortunately correct, and as I alluded to as well...
Assume an unstablized approach from which a go-around was initiated...
Several things come to mind:...An engine failure...a bird strike on the windscreen startling the crew...a Primary Flight Control failure (at an unopportune time...Electrical failure resulting in the Primary Flt Instruments and cockpit lights going out...Some sort of structural failure...passenger interference...the list could go on and on...
However, the examples above are far less likely to occur than a simple pilot error resulting in this terrible tragedy...
I am a fan of Robert Serling, the great aviation writer...He wrote a book titled "The Left Seat", which was fiction but loosly based around any one of the "Big Four" in the 40's through the Jet Age...
The Story centered around the fictional McDonald MacKay, from his "new hire class" through his Captaincy of his airline "Midwest" (substitute Eastern, American or United). As a DC-7 Captain, this ALPA Safety Committee Chairman crashed his DC-7 on evening at Idlewild (JFK) during a missed approach, and in the aftermath realized it was he who screwed up...
A tear-jerker, but he fessed up and everything turned out ok in the end...
My point is, while everyone else was looking to exonerate him, he realized that pilots, even excellent ones, can have a bad day...It cost our fictional hero...but that was fiction...
Some time fiction is not only stranger than truth...it sometimes parallels it...
I am the first guy in line to try to find why the guy upfront didn't screw up...but sometimes you are unnfortunately correct, and as I alluded to as well...
Assume an unstablized approach from which a go-around was initiated...
Several things come to mind:...An engine failure...a bird strike on the windscreen startling the crew...a Primary Flight Control failure (at an unopportune time...Electrical failure resulting in the Primary Flt Instruments and cockpit lights going out...Some sort of structural failure...passenger interference...the list could go on and on...
However, the examples above are far less likely to occur than a simple pilot error resulting in this terrible tragedy...
I am a fan of Robert Serling, the great aviation writer...He wrote a book titled "The Left Seat", which was fiction but loosly based around any one of the "Big Four" in the 40's through the Jet Age...
The Story centered around the fictional McDonald MacKay, from his "new hire class" through his Captaincy of his airline "Midwest" (substitute Eastern, American or United). As a DC-7 Captain, this ALPA Safety Committee Chairman crashed his DC-7 on evening at Idlewild (JFK) during a missed approach, and in the aftermath realized it was he who screwed up...
A tear-jerker, but he fessed up and everything turned out ok in the end...
My point is, while everyone else was looking to exonerate him, he realized that pilots, even excellent ones, can have a bad day...It cost our fictional hero...but that was fiction...
Some time fiction is not only stranger than truth...it sometimes parallels it...
Both the Carlsbad and Ottumwa, MN crashes occurred because the pilots asked more of the plane than it could deliver, might (MIGHT) be the same here. Long landing, late go-around decision, physics takes over!
GF
GF
IIRC, in the Carlsbad crash the approach was flown at such an excessive speed that landing and stopping on the runway surface was impossible. A very late go-around was attempted, but far too late to avoid hitting the LOC antenna array.
In the Hawker crash in Ottumwa, the speed was within normal approach speed range for the conditions, but with a tailwind component and a slightly long landing within the TDZ. On a wet runway, braking was ineffective and a very late go-around was attempted resulting in the airplane leaving the ground after the runway end. The crew coordination was less than ideal, resulting in the flaps being selected up prematurely. This ultimately led to an asymmetric stall and collision with the ground. Reading the report and CVR transcript, it was never clear to me that lift dump was ever fully deployed, perhaps contributing to the lack of braking effectiveness. Had the PIC elected to continue the stop instead of aborting the landing, it very likely would have been a low speed runway overrun event rather than a fatal crash. At some point in every landing, committing to stay on the ground and discarding any thought of a go-around must occur. In the Hawker, selection of lift dump is normally considered to be the act which commits you to staying on the ground, as much as T/R selection does in other aircraft.
What do these two accidents have in common with the Premier crash in Georgia?
NTSB board member Mark Rosenker is quoted as saying in a briefing last week (according to Avweb.com and available for viewing at NTSB.gov) that the airplane had clipped a utility pole and crashed following an aborted landing.
I seem to recall a spate of overruns in the Premier 1 when it first entered service a few years ago. Something to do with the lift dump system and supposedly addressed by Raytheon/Beech.
So it seems quite possible that this accident has a couple of things in common with one or both of the above cited accidents. Thanks ksjc and GF for mentioning them. Since the NTSB was having a slow week and saw fit to send a major investigation go-team to the crash, (not normal for non air carrier accidents not involving well known celebrities) it seems likely that information on this accident will be more visible for internet accident investigators like me via the NTSB website.
westhawk
In the Hawker crash in Ottumwa, the speed was within normal approach speed range for the conditions, but with a tailwind component and a slightly long landing within the TDZ. On a wet runway, braking was ineffective and a very late go-around was attempted resulting in the airplane leaving the ground after the runway end. The crew coordination was less than ideal, resulting in the flaps being selected up prematurely. This ultimately led to an asymmetric stall and collision with the ground. Reading the report and CVR transcript, it was never clear to me that lift dump was ever fully deployed, perhaps contributing to the lack of braking effectiveness. Had the PIC elected to continue the stop instead of aborting the landing, it very likely would have been a low speed runway overrun event rather than a fatal crash. At some point in every landing, committing to stay on the ground and discarding any thought of a go-around must occur. In the Hawker, selection of lift dump is normally considered to be the act which commits you to staying on the ground, as much as T/R selection does in other aircraft.
What do these two accidents have in common with the Premier crash in Georgia?
NTSB board member Mark Rosenker is quoted as saying in a briefing last week (according to Avweb.com and available for viewing at NTSB.gov) that the airplane had clipped a utility pole and crashed following an aborted landing.
I seem to recall a spate of overruns in the Premier 1 when it first entered service a few years ago. Something to do with the lift dump system and supposedly addressed by Raytheon/Beech.
So it seems quite possible that this accident has a couple of things in common with one or both of the above cited accidents. Thanks ksjc and GF for mentioning them. Since the NTSB was having a slow week and saw fit to send a major investigation go-team to the crash, (not normal for non air carrier accidents not involving well known celebrities) it seems likely that information on this accident will be more visible for internet accident investigators like me via the NTSB website.
westhawk
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three green...I read "the left seat" many years ago too. serling (the non twilight zone brother ) was great...didyou ever read, 'wings"...it was a fictionalized story of aleghany airlines (now usairsoontobeamerican).
great books...imagine real books with real paper!!!!
anyway, your examples are good...engine failure on go around, flight control failure, instrument failure...but a pilot should be ready for an engine failure at any time, same with the rest...shifting modes in you rmind right away.
yes, its tough to have a control failure at sixty feet and get away with it...but
anyway, maybe it was something else...who knows, maybe a passenger went nuts and used a scalpel to knife the pilots on short final...but Idont' think so.
premiere has lift dump? hmmmm, I flew the handle page with lift dump...very effective...but we did have one guy who had lift dump deploy on final prior to landing.
serling...great books
did you ever read "the crowded sky", not by serling...just the cover review was fascinating.
great books...imagine real books with real paper!!!!
anyway, your examples are good...engine failure on go around, flight control failure, instrument failure...but a pilot should be ready for an engine failure at any time, same with the rest...shifting modes in you rmind right away.
yes, its tough to have a control failure at sixty feet and get away with it...but
anyway, maybe it was something else...who knows, maybe a passenger went nuts and used a scalpel to knife the pilots on short final...but Idont' think so.
premiere has lift dump? hmmmm, I flew the handle page with lift dump...very effective...but we did have one guy who had lift dump deploy on final prior to landing.
serling...great books
did you ever read "the crowded sky", not by serling...just the cover review was fascinating.
Westhawk
I my humble view, the, perhaps, no report yet, common thread is late or incorrect decisions to try and get airborne again.
GF
I my humble view, the, perhaps, no report yet, common thread is late or incorrect decisions to try and get airborne again.
GF
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Seven Stroke...thank you for the kind reply...
No I never read "Wings", but I've had a few friends from Allegheny (and Piedmont) in the past...I'll have to try to find it...Serling never wrote a bad aviation story, fictional or non-fiction...(The Electra Story) comes to mind...
Have you ever read "She'll Never Get Off The Ground"?...Fiction but loosely based on the USA's first Female Airline Pilot...Dudney Devlin was the pilot in the book, but it was (I forget her name) who broke the "barrier with Frontier in the 70's...
As for "The Crowded Sky", no never read that one, but I saw the movie...Didn't it have something to do with the flight attendant serving coffee to the cockpit and then one of the guys upfront spilled it on the Auto-Pilot control panel, resulting in a co;;ision with a Military T-33? (flown by Efram Zimbalist Jr).
All lessons us "old, not so bold pilots" learn from...
Maybe the new generation should start paying attention to mistakes we've all made but through the grace of god and our own witts managed to survive, never to repeat again...
No I never read "Wings", but I've had a few friends from Allegheny (and Piedmont) in the past...I'll have to try to find it...Serling never wrote a bad aviation story, fictional or non-fiction...(The Electra Story) comes to mind...
Have you ever read "She'll Never Get Off The Ground"?...Fiction but loosely based on the USA's first Female Airline Pilot...Dudney Devlin was the pilot in the book, but it was (I forget her name) who broke the "barrier with Frontier in the 70's...
As for "The Crowded Sky", no never read that one, but I saw the movie...Didn't it have something to do with the flight attendant serving coffee to the cockpit and then one of the guys upfront spilled it on the Auto-Pilot control panel, resulting in a co;;ision with a Military T-33? (flown by Efram Zimbalist Jr).
All lessons us "old, not so bold pilots" learn from...
Maybe the new generation should start paying attention to mistakes we've all made but through the grace of god and our own witts managed to survive, never to repeat again...
Bonnie Tiburzi, at AA, her dad was around the airport I learned at. Emily Warner was the first at old Frontier, but Bonnie was cited because AA was a "major" in those times.
GF
GF
Last edited by galaxy flyer; 26th Feb 2013 at 22:48.
GF:
Indeed. I once heard it put this way by a friend after we witnessed light single making a very late go-around: "Ya know, I don't think there's much of a future in doin' that very often."
westhawk
Indeed. I once heard it put this way by a friend after we witnessed light single making a very late go-around: "Ya know, I don't think there's much of a future in doin' that very often."
westhawk
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three green
''the crowded sky'' a reminder that being on the right altitude matters all the time...no spilling of coffee...that's the movie 'fate is the hunter'.
the book is better than the movie though both are good.
I read many serling books...all of them that I could get as they all had lessons. and my first ride on aplane was the electra...western airlines, the only way to fly.
I think the lessons in books are fascinating and I've learned from all of them.
wings, is very hard to find...maybe a used book sstore. or in this modern world online...I think that's the title.
be well, and always keep those young kids in line!!!!
''the crowded sky'' a reminder that being on the right altitude matters all the time...no spilling of coffee...that's the movie 'fate is the hunter'.
the book is better than the movie though both are good.
I read many serling books...all of them that I could get as they all had lessons. and my first ride on aplane was the electra...western airlines, the only way to fly.
I think the lessons in books are fascinating and I've learned from all of them.
wings, is very hard to find...maybe a used book sstore. or in this modern world online...I think that's the title.
be well, and always keep those young kids in line!!!!
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Seven...Fate is the Hunter...Ahhh...Captain Ernest K. Gann...wonder how many today who ever heard of him actually know he writes from experience...from among other things his life experiences as an American Airlines Capt...
I googled "Wings" and you're right, it seems hard to find, but I am greatful for the tip...I'd never heard of it, and now I'm determined to read it...
I'm out of the AvBiz now...Thanks anyway, but you keep the techno-geek aviators in line..
I googled "Wings" and you're right, it seems hard to find, but I am greatful for the tip...I'd never heard of it, and now I'm determined to read it...
I'm out of the AvBiz now...Thanks anyway, but you keep the techno-geek aviators in line..
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Doesn't this sound just like the Jack Roush crash at Oskosh 2 years ago? Deer on runway + blown go around perhaps? Too simple and too early to speculate but it's the first place my mind went.
CEN10FA443
CEN10FA443
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And your point being?...
I was offered a job on one of the Roush 727's back in the late 90's...Would have been a Great Job, but I was married at the time and didn't want to move to Charlotte...
Hindsight is 20-20...as was my marriage...
As far as I know Jack Roush runs a pretty good Aviation Department...And I have lots of VIP experience...
I was offered a job on one of the Roush 727's back in the late 90's...Would have been a Great Job, but I was married at the time and didn't want to move to Charlotte...
Hindsight is 20-20...as was my marriage...
As far as I know Jack Roush runs a pretty good Aviation Department...And I have lots of VIP experience...
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Its not personal, its a very pausible sequence of events which sounds consistent with the scenario. More likely, one might say than some of the other scenarios presented. Around dusk. Deer known to be an issue supposedly. Perhaps didn't commit to the go around or it occurred too late. It should be said i havent seen that this incident involved a stall. That being the primary difference between the two at this point. A few more knots of airspeed and they could be the same.
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NTSB Identification: ERA13MA139
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Wednesday, February 20, 2013 in Thomson, GA
Aircraft: BEECH 390, registration: N777VG
Injuries: 5 Fatal,2 Serious.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. NTSB investigators traveled in support of this investigation and used data obtained from various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.
On February 20, 2013, at 2006 eastern standard time, a Beechcraft 390 Premier 1A, N777VG, was destroyed following a collision with a utility pole, trees, and terrain following a go-around at Thomson-McDuffie Regional Airport (HQU), Thomson, Georgia. The airline transport-rated pilot and co-pilot were seriously injured, and five passengers were fatally injured. The airplane was registered to the Pavilion Group LLC and was operated by the pilot under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 as a business flight. Night visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and an instrument flight rules flight plan was filed. The flight originated at John C. Tune Airport (JWN), Nashville, Tennessee, about 1828 central standard time (1928 eastern standard time).
The purpose of the flight was to transport staff members of a vascular surgery practice from Nashville to Thomson, where the airplane was based. According to initial air traffic control information, the pilot checked in with Augusta approach control and reported HQU in sight. About 2003, the pilot cancelled visual flight rules flight-following services and continued toward HQU. The last recorded radar return was observed about 2005, when the airplane was at an indicated altitude of 700 feet above mean sea level and 1/2 mile from the airport. There were no distress calls received from the crew prior to the accident.
Witnesses reported that the airplane appeared to be in position to land when the pilot discontinued the approach and commenced a go-around. The witnesses observed the airplane continue down the runway at a low altitude.
The airplane struck a poured-concrete utility pole and braided wires about 59 feet above ground level. The pole was located about 1/4 mile east the departure end of runway 10. The utility pole was not lighted. During the initial impact with the utility pole, the outboard section of the left wing was severed. The airplane continued another 1/4 mile east before colliding with trees and terrain. A postcrash fire ensued and consumed a majority of the airframe. The engines separated from the fuselage during the impact sequence. On-scene examination of the wreckage revealed that all primary airframe structural components were accounted for at the accident site. The landing gear were found in the down (extended) position, and the flap handle was found in the 10-degree (go-around) position.
An initial inspection of the airport revealed that the pilot-controlled runway lights were operational. An examination of conditions recorded on an airport security camera showed that the runway lights were on the low intensity setting at the time of the accident. The airport did not have a control tower. An inspection of the runway surface did not reveal any unusual tire marks or debris.
Weather conditions at HQU near the time of the accident included calm wind and clear skies.
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Wednesday, February 20, 2013 in Thomson, GA
Aircraft: BEECH 390, registration: N777VG
Injuries: 5 Fatal,2 Serious.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. NTSB investigators traveled in support of this investigation and used data obtained from various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.
On February 20, 2013, at 2006 eastern standard time, a Beechcraft 390 Premier 1A, N777VG, was destroyed following a collision with a utility pole, trees, and terrain following a go-around at Thomson-McDuffie Regional Airport (HQU), Thomson, Georgia. The airline transport-rated pilot and co-pilot were seriously injured, and five passengers were fatally injured. The airplane was registered to the Pavilion Group LLC and was operated by the pilot under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 as a business flight. Night visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and an instrument flight rules flight plan was filed. The flight originated at John C. Tune Airport (JWN), Nashville, Tennessee, about 1828 central standard time (1928 eastern standard time).
The purpose of the flight was to transport staff members of a vascular surgery practice from Nashville to Thomson, where the airplane was based. According to initial air traffic control information, the pilot checked in with Augusta approach control and reported HQU in sight. About 2003, the pilot cancelled visual flight rules flight-following services and continued toward HQU. The last recorded radar return was observed about 2005, when the airplane was at an indicated altitude of 700 feet above mean sea level and 1/2 mile from the airport. There were no distress calls received from the crew prior to the accident.
Witnesses reported that the airplane appeared to be in position to land when the pilot discontinued the approach and commenced a go-around. The witnesses observed the airplane continue down the runway at a low altitude.
The airplane struck a poured-concrete utility pole and braided wires about 59 feet above ground level. The pole was located about 1/4 mile east the departure end of runway 10. The utility pole was not lighted. During the initial impact with the utility pole, the outboard section of the left wing was severed. The airplane continued another 1/4 mile east before colliding with trees and terrain. A postcrash fire ensued and consumed a majority of the airframe. The engines separated from the fuselage during the impact sequence. On-scene examination of the wreckage revealed that all primary airframe structural components were accounted for at the accident site. The landing gear were found in the down (extended) position, and the flap handle was found in the 10-degree (go-around) position.
An initial inspection of the airport revealed that the pilot-controlled runway lights were operational. An examination of conditions recorded on an airport security camera showed that the runway lights were on the low intensity setting at the time of the accident. The airport did not have a control tower. An inspection of the runway surface did not reveal any unusual tire marks or debris.
Weather conditions at HQU near the time of the accident included calm wind and clear skies.
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BEM411s...
Are you related to our departed friend 411a by any chance?
Any personal feelings aside, but in certain ways I agree with you...However, no stall is mentioned...you are correct...
But a "few extra knots" wouldn't do much for any jet after hitting something that takes a wing off...
Are you related to our departed friend 411a by any chance?
Any personal feelings aside, but in certain ways I agree with you...However, no stall is mentioned...you are correct...
But a "few extra knots" wouldn't do much for any jet after hitting something that takes a wing off...
Last edited by DownIn3Green; 6th Mar 2013 at 23:41. Reason: Correction to clairfy "our friend"
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No, I'm not related to anyone else on the board that I know of. my login is just an old one from college years ago I still use some places. Sad situation though. I do have to wonder if both engines were producing power on the go around or if the throttles were retarded for some reason to have such a flat flight path on the go.
There was a flight aware track posted somewhere showing about 250 KIAS at 5 miles from the runway and 2,500' AGL. I'm wondering if the speedbrakes or spoilers were left extended on the go. Presumably, they auto-retract when the throttles were advanced, but a failure or throttles not being pushed up far enough to retract them. Extended flight and/or ground spoilers (inadvertent touchdown?) would explain the trajectory.
GF
GF
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Report is out now.
Sad but true:
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:
The pilot's failure to follow airplane flight manual procedures for an antiskid failure in flight and his failure to immediately retract the lift dump after he elected to attempt a go-around on the runway. Contributing to the accident were the pilot's lack of systems knowledge and his fatigue due to acute sleep loss and his ineffective use of time between flights to obtain sleep.
Here the full Report:
ERA13MA139
Sad but true:
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:
The pilot's failure to follow airplane flight manual procedures for an antiskid failure in flight and his failure to immediately retract the lift dump after he elected to attempt a go-around on the runway. Contributing to the accident were the pilot's lack of systems knowledge and his fatigue due to acute sleep loss and his ineffective use of time between flights to obtain sleep.
Here the full Report:
ERA13MA139
