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One-engine landing with C525; flaps setting???

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One-engine landing with C525; flaps setting???

Old 22nd Sep 2012, 19:35
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One-engine landing with C525; flaps setting???

The emergency checklist calls for Flaps-to-land when landing is assured but would you do that or land with Flaps 15 to avoid the low speed, high power situation with a considerable yaw (assuming you have a 2000m+ runway, which makes you not worry about landing distance)?

Reason I ask is that I stumbled upon an accident report involving a Lear45, which had to do a one-engine landing at EDDN. The crew lost control in short final due to the situation described above, flaps being in the down position. The aircraft crashed and nobody survived. As in the C525 emergency checklist, it says to put the flaps in the land position when landing is assured. However, FIs etc. recommend to use Flaps approach for landing with one engine out.

Cecco
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Old 22nd Sep 2012, 19:58
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First that was a 35, not a 45...relevant as the older design/wing of the 35 is less forgiving than a 45.

Next...the CJ is such an easy to fly airplane... if you compare it to say, a KingAir in a single engine landing, IŽd say there is no problem whatsoever in flying the CJ SE.

Lastly, I wouldnŽt recommend inventing your own procedures. Imagine you do and then have a tire bursting -> the insurance will love the fact that you did not follow the emer checklist...

IŽm 525 CRI/CRE, 2000+ hrs on CJ, CJ1, CJ2, CJ2A, CJ3.
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Old 23rd Sep 2012, 11:30
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Whereas I with similar qualifications would say exactly the opposite.

We spend ages trying to teach people to fly stabilised normal approaches, why on earth would you want to destabilise an abnormal?

As for not following the checklist, that doesn't hold water. When is landing assured? In my book it's once the wheels are on the runway particularly if you want to follow the letter of the checklist which has the "Flaps - 35 once landing assured" item after "Speedbrakes - retracted by 50 feet"!!
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Old 23rd Sep 2012, 13:15
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I've no idea why it posts it twice?, but here's a Citation (not CJ)

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Old 23rd Sep 2012, 23:21
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"IŽm 525 CRI/CRE, 2000+ hrs on CJ, CJ1, CJ2, CJ2A, CJ3."

What's a CJ2A?
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Old 24th Sep 2012, 07:54
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CJ2+ with Proline
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Old 24th Sep 2012, 08:04
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His Dudeness is under attack !!!
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Old 24th Sep 2012, 08:07
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Ok, on YouTube, they are landing with Flaps 15 (btw, the "too low-flaps" warning can be inhibited...). What do other CJ drivers say?
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Old 24th Sep 2012, 08:58
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CJ2A -> me being stupid = CJ2+ (C525A/C25A / CJ2/CJ2+ mixed up)

His Dudeness is under attack !!!
So what ? Ask 5 pilots how to fly right and you`ll get at least 6 different answers...

BJJ seems to be unable to fly stabilized approaches (or do you never land with Flaps in "LAND" ? Oh, forgot, these do destabilize your approaches...), apparently uses Speedbrakes down to 50ft in an SE approach (you brought them in, remember? we both know its just to cover the limitation) and thinks a landing is only assured when his wheels have touched down.

I define it differently, but hey, everyone as they please. Pick the best answer for you...

BTW if setting full flaps destabilizes your approach, then you have no business being in the front end of a CJ. At all.

In my current aircraft (also a Cessna), the checklist does tell you NOT to land with full flaps in case of SE, but with 15° (0°/7°/15°/35° are the available settings). Its even a memory Item in case of engine failure during final approach to go back to 15° (if not there).

Last edited by His dudeness; 24th Sep 2012 at 08:59.
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Old 24th Sep 2012, 12:12
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you said "when landing is assured", I personally hate this...I think that landing is only assured when you are driving home or you are with your legs under the dinner table...
I've discussed this with many FSI instructor...and noone could give me a clear answer..

Thinking about myself, I wouldn't change anything in a plane perfectly flying under control below 1000 ft...
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Old 24th Sep 2012, 15:13
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His Dudeness,
I land with flaps 35 all the time; a stabilised approach is one where the configuration is not changed below 1000', and by 500' the speed is steady at Vref +15/-0 with the engines spooled up. This or something similar has been industry standard for about the last 20 years - perhaps you haven't caught up with recent developments in safety, though.
My point about the speedbrakes is exactly what you said; the checklist is written to cover legal a*ses and two can play at that game.
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Old 24th Sep 2012, 21:53
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I suspect the Cessna checklist is written the way it is to avoid the possibility of landing flaps15 and going straight to ground flap after touchdown which, as the flaps travel, may mean the wing gives enough lift to get airborne again unintentionally. Not a likely event but one that the legal eyes in Wichita probably want to have covered. To answer the original poster, in the case of a genuine OEI emergency I wouldn't take landing flap until I had good visual contact and I was cleared to land (which they would probably have done as soon as you commenced the approach on a mayday). There is no OEI landing climb gradient quoted in any of the CJ's (its only 2 engined data) so I really wouldn't want to risk going around against landing flap so for that reason I would probably not take the landing flap if I got visual at minima in very poor vis after an ILS. I would simply concentrate on landing. If you fly a private aircraft or for a slightly more broad minded public transport operation why don't you occasionally land the CJ with the flaps up or at 15 just so that you're used to it. The speedbrakes retraction at 50 feet is utter rubbish caused by a lack of money during certification - they simply didnt certify it with the speedbrakes out and then did a bit of a fiddle to certify it to land with the speedbrakes out off a steep approach. I really wouldnt fiddle with the speedbrakes at 50 feet..

I miss the CJ.. I don't miss folding myself into the cockpit but I do miss actually doing a bit of flying!

(I'm not as qualified as doody or the other chap - I just sit in the front when people let me)

Last edited by tommoutrie; 24th Sep 2012 at 21:56.
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Old 24th Sep 2012, 23:11
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Talking His Dudeness

'CJ2A' sorry, I couldn't resist it.

"525 CRI/CRE" isn't that a TRI/TRE on the 525 under EASA.

Tom, I think it was you that gave me the FSI CJ books a few years ago, thanks again, I didn't waste them, I completed a rating that lead to the pleasures of flying with 'JCD'
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Old 25th Sep 2012, 10:26
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its the "pay it forward" approach to aviation..

now if anyone has some global books I can have that would be great!
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Old 25th Sep 2012, 14:20
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'CJ2A' sorry, I couldn't resist it.
No worries, you were right. Probably one of the first signs of me getting old, the brain not properly wired any more...?

"525 CRI/CRE" isn't that a TRI/TRE on the 525 under EASA.
This might very well be, however I do have a JAR-FCL ATP, on this it says:

CRI for the SEP (A) C525 and BE20 and on my Examiner Authorization it says CRE (A)...this was renewed only last July...
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Old 25th Sep 2012, 16:09
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now if anyone has some global books I can have that would be great!
Well, know of one person who soon will have some, and another who must already have some - want me to ask??.

F/o
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Old 28th Sep 2012, 06:12
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I see we don't have any MEIs in here...
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Old 28th Sep 2012, 09:05
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Whats an MEI? Is it an FI ME? There's too many flipping TLA's in flying.

(oohh I really hope that sillypillock is going to tell us all that we're idiots and we're all doing it wrong..)

Last edited by tommoutrie; 28th Sep 2012 at 09:19.
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Old 28th Sep 2012, 09:24
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Lot of semantics being discussed here. In the Lear 45 incident cited the crew selected full flap well before the landing was assured, and as a result they needed to add thrust to make the runway. It was this that led to a departure from controlled flight.

Landing assured simply means that if all thrust is retarded the aircraft will be capable of gliding to a point on an unobstructed runway that provides sufficient distance within which to decelerate and stop the aircraft.
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Old 28th Sep 2012, 09:47
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You talk about semantics and then throw in an apparent fact that is just not true. There is no agreed definition of Landing Assured - this issue was raised at an instructors seminar in the UK and the only thing that was agreed is that there isnt a definition!
I am landing assured if the approach is stable, I can see that the runway is clear, and ATC have cleared me to land. I could baulk landing after that point for any number of reasons - brake failure, an unseen obstruction such as an animal, if the approach became unstable at any time. OEI I would consider taking landing flap once I have decided that the landing is assured but I definitely wouldn't leave it at the point where I could retard the throttles and complete a glide approach and take it then. ICAO does define a stable approach (in 8168) and one of those is that the aircraft is in the landing configuration. Taking the landing flap by definition destabilises the approach for a time and when you are OEI will require you to move the remaining thrust lever (s) more than you are used to and consequently you will have to move the rudder which may or may not mean you need to put in some aileron (you get the point). So the argument for landing in the approach flap config is fairly strong but the pilots in the plane with the dead engine must decide. Use the days when it doesn't fail to think about and practice what you will do when it does fail!

I think I consider Landing Assured to be a less wordy version of "Landing is really really likely and I'm happy to commit some extra drag to the situation and its pretty unlikely that I'm going to go around now but dont completely bin that idea because you never know, it is still a possibility".

But lets be clear. Thats me. I don't really care what anyone else does so long as there's a plan. I think its important to explain things as clearly as possible on here because some people with not a busting lot of experience actually read our waffle and may choose to incorporate whats said into their bank of knowledge.

come on Sillypeoples - give me your wisdom..

Last edited by tommoutrie; 28th Sep 2012 at 09:57.
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