PC-12 Down In Florida
These considerations apply to ANY airplane at higher altitudes- even the largest jet transports.
you are wrong, the PC12 is better than many large jet transport. It can climb to max certified altitude with max take off weight, no matter what temperature.
The PC12 is an airplane.
So your considerations do not apply to ANY airplane.
Other Planes I fly can do that as well, The CJ3, C441 and the King air 200, 300 and 350.
Last edited by inbalance; 10th Jun 2012 at 07:48.
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I must admit that I have never understood the mentality in spending $4.5 mill to buy a single engine turboprop?
With that outlay and depreciation it makes a mockery of the single engine saving and lower fuel bills.
At the end you still have a very expensive semi detached house
With that outlay I would go CJ1/CJ2 or a KingAir a couple of years old or less.
I have never flown the PC12 but have a few hours on the TBM.
Pace
I must admit that I have never understood the mentality in spending $4.5 mill to buy a single engine turboprop?
With that outlay and depreciation it makes a mockery of the single engine saving and lower fuel bills.
At the end you still have a very expensive semi detached house
With that outlay I would go CJ1/CJ2 or a KingAir a couple of years old or less.
I have never flown the PC12 but have a few hours on the TBM.
Pace
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I am not saying FlightAware is 100 percent correct. In fact in some cases it is totally wrong, however, based on what I see here, it kind of leads me to believe that he went from a normal climb speed of around 150 knots, ......to a much lower speed. What does that suggest ? If your ground speed drops nearly 100 knots, your airspeed probably did too. Please note, I said probably, not definitely. We know too, that there were several rapid changes of direction. Do you really think that was done intentionally? Lastly, at some point his airspeed increases dramatically. After a rapid loss of speed, and then an inexplicable series of turns, followed by a rapid increase in speed, you don't need flightaware to tell you he fell out of the sky, what other conclusion can you come to besides stall, spin/spiral, overspeed, structural failure, in flight breakup, crash, no survivors? The really sad part is, 6 people on board from the same family, and such a beautiful family too.
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Crossflow
I would tend to go with your scenario as the likely cause a stall maybe followed by a flat spin (PC12 known for that) followed by a recovery into a high speed dive spiral and breaking the aircraft.
The end of a beautiful family is the tragic very sad conclusion!
Pace
I would tend to go with your scenario as the likely cause a stall maybe followed by a flat spin (PC12 known for that) followed by a recovery into a high speed dive spiral and breaking the aircraft.
The end of a beautiful family is the tragic very sad conclusion!
Pace
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@ Murexway,
you are wrong, the PC12 is better than many large jet transport. It can climb to max certified altitude with max take off weight, no matter what temperature.
The PC12 is an airplane.
So your considerations do not apply to ANY airplane.
inbalance:
I didn't say that the limitation applies to any airplane, just the consideration. And I would not agree that the PC-12 can climb to its max cruise altitude no matter what the temperature.
From what I can tell from the only cruise performance chart that I could find online, the PC-12 (base model chart) can maintain max certified ceiling up to a maximum temperature of ISA +10, which is as high as the chart goes, and at a specific weight (which I presume to be max takeoff weight less climb fuel). At temperatures above ISA +10 (and they can occur) it would still be wise to consider whether you have the power to climb to your desired altitude.
Another consideration would be if you are at FL300 at ISA+10 at the max weight listed for that altitude and fly into warmer temperatures, would you have sufficient margin to maintain FL300.
Obviously, for normal operations, the PC-12 is not climb limited, which is very nice and one less thing for the pilot to have to consider - especially for an owner-pilot who may not have the time to remain as current as a professional pilot.
PS. From the perf charts, it looks like the PC-12 is a bit of a "hot-rod" and must be a blast to fly, especially at light weights
you are wrong, the PC12 is better than many large jet transport. It can climb to max certified altitude with max take off weight, no matter what temperature.
The PC12 is an airplane.
So your considerations do not apply to ANY airplane.
inbalance:
I didn't say that the limitation applies to any airplane, just the consideration. And I would not agree that the PC-12 can climb to its max cruise altitude no matter what the temperature.
From what I can tell from the only cruise performance chart that I could find online, the PC-12 (base model chart) can maintain max certified ceiling up to a maximum temperature of ISA +10, which is as high as the chart goes, and at a specific weight (which I presume to be max takeoff weight less climb fuel). At temperatures above ISA +10 (and they can occur) it would still be wise to consider whether you have the power to climb to your desired altitude.
Another consideration would be if you are at FL300 at ISA+10 at the max weight listed for that altitude and fly into warmer temperatures, would you have sufficient margin to maintain FL300.
Obviously, for normal operations, the PC-12 is not climb limited, which is very nice and one less thing for the pilot to have to consider - especially for an owner-pilot who may not have the time to remain as current as a professional pilot.
PS. From the perf charts, it looks like the PC-12 is a bit of a "hot-rod" and must be a blast to fly, especially at light weights
Last edited by Murexway; 10th Jun 2012 at 22:11.
I must admit that I have never understood the mentality in spending $4.5 mill to buy a single engine turboprop?
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/6932/bild283n.jpg
The box weights 530 kg and was flown 1350 NM. Content was a ships turbo charger. No change to get it thrue the door of a CJ or King Air.
We started with a King Air 200 but sold it after a couple of years. The PC12 can do a lot of missions the King Air canīt. Landing and Take Off distance and Payload is far better with the PC12.
Yes, I know the PC12 has 1 engine only. But that has been discussed before.
By the way, we also operate a CJ3. A nice airplane.
Have you ever calculated the Landing Distance of a CJ3 on a snow covered runway ?
From what I can tell from the only cruise performance chart that I could find online, the PC-12 (base model chart) can maintain max certified ceiling up to a maximum temperature of ISA +10, which is as high as the chart goes, and at a specific weight (which I presume to be max takeoff weight less climb fuel). At temperatures above ISA +10 (and they can occur) it would still be wise to consider whether you have the power to climb to your desired altitude.
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1...erformance.jpg
This chart shows the performance of the PC12 NG at 30000 ft ISA + 30.
But I never saw ISA+ 30 at 30000ft.
Max take off weight of the PC12 47 and the NG is 10450 lbs.
It takes 350 lbs of fuel to climb to 30000 ft at ISA +30.
Last edited by inbalance; 11th Jun 2012 at 00:14.
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Show me any other Plane that will cost 4.5 mill or less that can do that:
BARNSTORMERS.COM
I don't get it either why somebody would spend millions on a single engine job, except for a Cessna Caravan hauling stuff in bush Alaska.
Hello Towerdog,
you are right, it may fit into a 206. But the 206 doesīt have the speed and the range. And the c 208 is a single turboprop too.
The photo is the only photo I have with me on my notebook. We do have bigger payload sometimes. We can load up to 4 europallets:
http://www.totregroup.com/img/Euro%2...ain%20View.jpg
Europallets are 1,2 x 0,8 Meter.
you are right, it may fit into a 206. But the 206 doesīt have the speed and the range. And the c 208 is a single turboprop too.
The photo is the only photo I have with me on my notebook. We do have bigger payload sometimes. We can load up to 4 europallets:
http://www.totregroup.com/img/Euro%2...ain%20View.jpg
Europallets are 1,2 x 0,8 Meter.
Last edited by inbalance; 11th Jun 2012 at 00:53.
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As to some of your concerns as to if the plane was overloaded, I can assure you it was not. I personally knew Ron and his family. Their boys were wrestlers, his oldest and biggest son just wrestled at the kansas state wrestling meet in March. He wrestled at 106 pounds. Ron and Becky were not large people either, I'd be surprised if Ron even weighed 170.
This was a terrific, generous, kind and extremely tight knit bonded family. They would bend over backwards to help the kids in the community. It's hard to say how many kids they've helped send to wrestling camps and the like. Never asked for any attention or recognition. Just extremely kind people and this is absolutely a terrible loss for Junction City, Kansas State University, and Kansas in general. They will be missed.
This was a terrific, generous, kind and extremely tight knit bonded family. They would bend over backwards to help the kids in the community. It's hard to say how many kids they've helped send to wrestling camps and the like. Never asked for any attention or recognition. Just extremely kind people and this is absolutely a terrible loss for Junction City, Kansas State University, and Kansas in general. They will be missed.
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A chain of events?
There seems to be a classic CRM chain forming from all the pieces that are muted in this string...
Repossessed aircraft only the month before (maintenance state? when the previous owner stopped paying the bank, he probably stopped paying the maintenence some time before that)
Pilot unfamiliar with new aircraft and flying alone.
Big weather conditions - for me he was trying to get out of or being thrown around by some big weather.Would explain the rapid directional changes.
The photos show the fueslage damage to be where the emergency exit is located. Did this fail causing explosive decompression? A few seconds of useful consciousness in an unfamiliar aircraft perhaps was not enough.
If the pilot was unconcious then the aircraft could end up in all manner of positions, including a flat spin to Earth
All supposition of course. My thoughts remain with the family and friends of the victims of this very sad accident.
Repossessed aircraft only the month before (maintenance state? when the previous owner stopped paying the bank, he probably stopped paying the maintenence some time before that)
Pilot unfamiliar with new aircraft and flying alone.
Big weather conditions - for me he was trying to get out of or being thrown around by some big weather.Would explain the rapid directional changes.
The photos show the fueslage damage to be where the emergency exit is located. Did this fail causing explosive decompression? A few seconds of useful consciousness in an unfamiliar aircraft perhaps was not enough.
If the pilot was unconcious then the aircraft could end up in all manner of positions, including a flat spin to Earth
All supposition of course. My thoughts remain with the family and friends of the victims of this very sad accident.
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Fuel icing?
Having flown the ng for several years we're always conscious of asking for the anti-icing additive for our pc12's. One of the news reports I heard was of a guy saying he heard the engine revving up and stopping, like he was running out of fuel. Could have been a fuel icing problem, it's happened before in Butte, Montana. Just another possibility. In Canada we use it all year long.
Machaca, thank you for he pictures.
I notice that the Propeller is full feathered.
Propeller at the PC12 feathers if you lose oilpressure, or if the engine has been cut with the condition lever. Not if the engine quits by it self or lack of fuel during normal flight. Windmilling core engine gives enough oilpressure to keep the Propeller in fine coarse.
In a spinning aircraft the forward speed isnīt enough to keep the engine windmilling, so the propeller might feather then.
Both wingtanks are ruptured.
Did the left wintip come of during flight or on the ground ?
Ist that oil on the left windscreen or is it smoke from the post impact fire ?
Inbalnce
I notice that the Propeller is full feathered.
Propeller at the PC12 feathers if you lose oilpressure, or if the engine has been cut with the condition lever. Not if the engine quits by it self or lack of fuel during normal flight. Windmilling core engine gives enough oilpressure to keep the Propeller in fine coarse.
In a spinning aircraft the forward speed isnīt enough to keep the engine windmilling, so the propeller might feather then.
Both wingtanks are ruptured.
Did the left wintip come of during flight or on the ground ?
Ist that oil on the left windscreen or is it smoke from the post impact fire ?
Inbalnce
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Tim Monville, a senior air safety investigator in Miami with the National Transportation Safety Board, has stated that portions of the left wing, about six feet of the right wing and the horizontal stabilizer were some distance away from the site, and there was a post-crash fire.
The pilot acquired the aircraft just 5 weeks prior.
The pilot acquired the aircraft just 5 weeks prior.
Last edited by Machaca; 17th Jun 2012 at 14:44.
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On June 7, 2012, about 1235 eastern daylight time, a Pilatus PC-12/47, N950KA,registered to and operated by Roadside Ventures, LLC, departed controlled flight followed by subsequent in-flight breakup near Lake Wales, Florida. Instrument meteorological conditions prevailed at the altitude and location of the departure from controlled flight and an instrument flight rules (IFR) flight plan was filed for the 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 91 personal flight from St. Lucie County International Airport (FPR), Fort Pierce, Florida, to Freeman Field
Airport (3JC), Junction City, Kansas. The airplane was substantially damaged and the certificated private pilot and five passengers were fatally injured. The flight originated from FPR about 1205.
According to preliminary Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) air traffic control information, after departure, air traffic control communications were transferred to Miami Air Route Traffic Control Center (Miami Center). While in contact with that facility, about 1229, the flight was cleared to flight level (FL) 250. At about 1230, the controller cleared the flight to FL260, which the pilot acknowledged. At about 1232, the controller advised the pilot of a large area of precipitation northwest of Lakeland, with moderate, heavy and extreme echoes. The controller asked the pilot to look at it and to advise what direction he needed to deviate, then suggested deviation right of course until north of the adverse weather. The pilot responded that he agreed, and the controller asked the pilot what heading from his position would keep the airplane clear, and the pilot responded 320 degrees. The controller cleared the pilot to fly heading 320 degrees, and to deviate right of course when necessary, and when able proceed direct to Seminole, which he acknowledged. There was no further recorded communication from the pilot with the Miami Center.
According to preliminary radar data, between 1232:37, and 12:33:25, the airplane proceeded in a west-northwesterly direction, and climbed from 24,700 to 25,100 feet, then maintained that altitude for the next 12 seconds; however, a change in direction to the right was noted. Between 1233:37, and 1233:49, the airplane descended from 25,100 to 24,200 feet, and turned to the right, and between 1233:49, and 1234:01, the airplane descended from 24,200 to 22,500 feet, and continued the right turn. Between 1234:01 and 1234:37, the airplane descended from 22,500 to 10,700 feet, and turned to a southerly heading. Between 1234:37, and 1234:49, the airplane turned left and proceeded on a northeasterly heading. Between 1234:49, and 1235:37 (last secondary return at 1,300 feet), the airplane continued on a northeasterly heading.
The pilot of a nearby airplane reported to FAA air traffic control and NTSB hearing a Mayday call about 1 minute before hearing the sound of an emergency locator transmitter (ELT) signal.
A witness who was located about 1.5 nautical miles and 193 degrees from the crash site reported that on the date and time of the accident, he was inside his house and first heard a sound he attributed to a propeller feathering or later described as flutter of a flight control surface. The sound lasted 3 to 4 cycles of a whooshing high to low sound, followed by a sound he described as an energy release. He was clear the sound he heard was not an explosion, but more like mechanical fracture of parts. He ran outside, and first saw the airplane below the clouds (ceiling was estimated to be 10,000 feet). He noted by silhouette that parts of the airplane were missing, but he did not see any parts separate from the airplane during the time he saw it. At that time it was not raining at his location. He went inside his house, and got a digital camera, then ran back outside to his pool deck, and videotaped the descent. He reported the airplane was in a spin but could not recall the direction. The engine sound was consistent the whole time; there was no revving; he reported there was no forward movement. He called 911 and reported the accident.
Another witness who was located about .4 nautical mile and 125 degrees from the crash site reported hearing a boom sound that he attributed to a lawn mower which he thought odd because it had just been raining. He saw black smoke trailing the airplane which was spinning. He ran to the side of their house, and noted the airplane was still spinning. His brother came by their back door, they heard a thud, and both ran direct to the location of where they thought the airplane had crashed. When they arrived at the wreckage, they saw fire in front of the airplane which one individual attempted to extinguish by throwing sand on it, but he was unable. The other individual reported the left forward door was hard to open, but he pushed it up and then was able to open it. Both attempted to render assistance; one individual called 911 to report the accident and then guided local first responders to the accident site.
Preliminary examination of the accident site revealed the wreckage consisting of the fuselage and sections of both wings came to rest upright in an open field. Sections of both wings, and also the horizontal stabilizer and elevator were separated. The separated components consisting of sections of both wings, the horizontal stabilizer, and elevator were located, tagged as to their location, and secured with the main wreckage.
The pilot, age 45, held a private pilot certificate with airplane single engine land, and instrument airplane ratings.
Airport (3JC), Junction City, Kansas. The airplane was substantially damaged and the certificated private pilot and five passengers were fatally injured. The flight originated from FPR about 1205.
According to preliminary Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) air traffic control information, after departure, air traffic control communications were transferred to Miami Air Route Traffic Control Center (Miami Center). While in contact with that facility, about 1229, the flight was cleared to flight level (FL) 250. At about 1230, the controller cleared the flight to FL260, which the pilot acknowledged. At about 1232, the controller advised the pilot of a large area of precipitation northwest of Lakeland, with moderate, heavy and extreme echoes. The controller asked the pilot to look at it and to advise what direction he needed to deviate, then suggested deviation right of course until north of the adverse weather. The pilot responded that he agreed, and the controller asked the pilot what heading from his position would keep the airplane clear, and the pilot responded 320 degrees. The controller cleared the pilot to fly heading 320 degrees, and to deviate right of course when necessary, and when able proceed direct to Seminole, which he acknowledged. There was no further recorded communication from the pilot with the Miami Center.
According to preliminary radar data, between 1232:37, and 12:33:25, the airplane proceeded in a west-northwesterly direction, and climbed from 24,700 to 25,100 feet, then maintained that altitude for the next 12 seconds; however, a change in direction to the right was noted. Between 1233:37, and 1233:49, the airplane descended from 25,100 to 24,200 feet, and turned to the right, and between 1233:49, and 1234:01, the airplane descended from 24,200 to 22,500 feet, and continued the right turn. Between 1234:01 and 1234:37, the airplane descended from 22,500 to 10,700 feet, and turned to a southerly heading. Between 1234:37, and 1234:49, the airplane turned left and proceeded on a northeasterly heading. Between 1234:49, and 1235:37 (last secondary return at 1,300 feet), the airplane continued on a northeasterly heading.
The pilot of a nearby airplane reported to FAA air traffic control and NTSB hearing a Mayday call about 1 minute before hearing the sound of an emergency locator transmitter (ELT) signal.
A witness who was located about 1.5 nautical miles and 193 degrees from the crash site reported that on the date and time of the accident, he was inside his house and first heard a sound he attributed to a propeller feathering or later described as flutter of a flight control surface. The sound lasted 3 to 4 cycles of a whooshing high to low sound, followed by a sound he described as an energy release. He was clear the sound he heard was not an explosion, but more like mechanical fracture of parts. He ran outside, and first saw the airplane below the clouds (ceiling was estimated to be 10,000 feet). He noted by silhouette that parts of the airplane were missing, but he did not see any parts separate from the airplane during the time he saw it. At that time it was not raining at his location. He went inside his house, and got a digital camera, then ran back outside to his pool deck, and videotaped the descent. He reported the airplane was in a spin but could not recall the direction. The engine sound was consistent the whole time; there was no revving; he reported there was no forward movement. He called 911 and reported the accident.
Another witness who was located about .4 nautical mile and 125 degrees from the crash site reported hearing a boom sound that he attributed to a lawn mower which he thought odd because it had just been raining. He saw black smoke trailing the airplane which was spinning. He ran to the side of their house, and noted the airplane was still spinning. His brother came by their back door, they heard a thud, and both ran direct to the location of where they thought the airplane had crashed. When they arrived at the wreckage, they saw fire in front of the airplane which one individual attempted to extinguish by throwing sand on it, but he was unable. The other individual reported the left forward door was hard to open, but he pushed it up and then was able to open it. Both attempted to render assistance; one individual called 911 to report the accident and then guided local first responders to the accident site.
Preliminary examination of the accident site revealed the wreckage consisting of the fuselage and sections of both wings came to rest upright in an open field. Sections of both wings, and also the horizontal stabilizer and elevator were separated. The separated components consisting of sections of both wings, the horizontal stabilizer, and elevator were located, tagged as to their location, and secured with the main wreckage.
The pilot, age 45, held a private pilot certificate with airplane single engine land, and instrument airplane ratings.
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The advice from the controller regarding heavy precipitation and further advice to change course sounds very relevant especially regarding the initial loss of 1000 feet.
It sounds as if the aircraft hit a severe downdraught and stalled in the process.
A spin is unlikely to break an aircraft a spiral dive could do so.
It is possible with modern training methods to incipient that there was confusion over which state the aircraft was in and incorrect recovery methods used?
Whatever the aircraft was in a high rate of descent after the first loss of control enough to break it.
Advice to drop the gear beyond VNE springs to mind in beyond VNE dives?
With part of the wings and flying structures missing it was inevitable that a spinning motion would occur whether in a true spin or the aircraft not being in a balanced flying state.
A really sad disaster to a lovely family
It sounds as if the aircraft hit a severe downdraught and stalled in the process.
A spin is unlikely to break an aircraft a spiral dive could do so.
It is possible with modern training methods to incipient that there was confusion over which state the aircraft was in and incorrect recovery methods used?
Whatever the aircraft was in a high rate of descent after the first loss of control enough to break it.
Advice to drop the gear beyond VNE springs to mind in beyond VNE dives?
With part of the wings and flying structures missing it was inevitable that a spinning motion would occur whether in a true spin or the aircraft not being in a balanced flying state.
A really sad disaster to a lovely family
From the looks of one of the pictures it seems as if the gear was down..
Hydraulic pump is electric.
Gear emergency extention is free fall by removing the pressure.
Any damaged hydraulic line will lower the gear.
Inbalance
