PC-12 Down In Florida
Based on the pics of the aircraft all but intact at the crash site, plus the latest news that a pax was found some distance away, it would seem that it decended in a flat spin of some sort.
The PC12 isn't really old enough to suffer rot, looks like bad WX or a collision at this point.
mini.
The PC12 isn't really old enough to suffer rot, looks like bad WX or a collision at this point.
mini.
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The Sheriff reported portions of the left wing, approx six feet of the right wing, and the horizontal stab were all found a good distance from the fuselage.
Don't know if the acft had wx radar, or what sort of anti/de-ice gear was installed - boots perhaps. Also don't know his quals or currency.
He could have penetrated a cell, he could have iced up, he could have failed to turn on pitot heat (as another poster mentioned) or it failed, or he could have taken a lightning strike that knocked out the A/P and electrically powered instruments - all while in IMC. A lot for anybody to deal with. Could be a bit like Air France 447 over the Atlantic.
Don't know if the acft had wx radar, or what sort of anti/de-ice gear was installed - boots perhaps. Also don't know his quals or currency.
He could have penetrated a cell, he could have iced up, he could have failed to turn on pitot heat (as another poster mentioned) or it failed, or he could have taken a lightning strike that knocked out the A/P and electrically powered instruments - all while in IMC. A lot for anybody to deal with. Could be a bit like Air France 447 over the Atlantic.
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Invalid syllogism. It is difficult to exceed structural limits in a stalled airplane. We do know that stall is only one possible consequence of loss of control.
We don't know why this airplane broke up. We don't know whether it broke up due to loss of control or the loss of control was due to the breakup.
Who knows; maybe the pilot stalled, just like AF447, recovered from the stall, unlike AF447, but then oversped or overloaded in the stall recovery.
Or maybe it was goats.
We don't know why this airplane broke up. We don't know whether it broke up due to loss of control or the loss of control was due to the breakup.
Who knows; maybe the pilot stalled, just like AF447, recovered from the stall, unlike AF447, but then oversped or overloaded in the stall recovery.
Or maybe it was goats.
Last edited by BobnSpike; 9th Jun 2012 at 02:01.
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No PC12 does not have ED mode of AP
Airframe of the plane is really robus, the plane was developed to land at worst runways imaginable. Where Twin Otter or C172 can land, PC12 can land too.
Rear cargo doors have several big pins. There is announciator in cockpit, that doors are not closed properlly. Cargo doors are not missing on pics of the crashed plane.
WX radar is at the end of left wing. So pilot does not see weather like 60 degrees on the right.
De-icing is effective unless you enter severe icing or if you fly a longer time in moderate icing. Some pieces of ice still remain on goodridges. Not so much.
PC12 has a quite thick aerodynamic profile (low stall speed) so I assume even with some ice on it, it is able to produce lift.
Stall characteristic of a plane is vary bad. That is why they installed shaker and pusher in it, to pass through certification. It goes inverted and then makes half of a loop. But as far as I know, maximum speed is not exceeded during this manouver.
Airframe of the plane is really robus, the plane was developed to land at worst runways imaginable. Where Twin Otter or C172 can land, PC12 can land too.
Rear cargo doors have several big pins. There is announciator in cockpit, that doors are not closed properlly. Cargo doors are not missing on pics of the crashed plane.
WX radar is at the end of left wing. So pilot does not see weather like 60 degrees on the right.
De-icing is effective unless you enter severe icing or if you fly a longer time in moderate icing. Some pieces of ice still remain on goodridges. Not so much.
PC12 has a quite thick aerodynamic profile (low stall speed) so I assume even with some ice on it, it is able to produce lift.
Stall characteristic of a plane is vary bad. That is why they installed shaker and pusher in it, to pass through certification. It goes inverted and then makes half of a loop. But as far as I know, maximum speed is not exceeded during this manouver.
Last edited by ILblog; 9th Jun 2012 at 07:09.
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There are a couple of hints in the second report.
The last recorded level was FL251 Although its cruising level was reported as FL260.
That could indicate the aircraft was climbing to its cruise level?
In such a situation especially with VS selected and the pilot preoccupied its possible the aircraft stalled.
As stated the stall is bad hence why certain "extras" were required.
I believe? and I dont know a lot about the aircraft that it will flat spin?
One witness reported seeing the aircraft flat spinning!
That is not in itself a high load state enough to break off a wing so surely that must have lead to some recovery manouvre which was a high load?
There are too many possibilities which lead to this very tragic accident and displaying the pictures of such a happy family unit brings it harder to home of what a cruel mistress aviation can be!
At 25K I wonder how anyone managed to climb Everest without oxygen if they would only last 1 to 3 minutes?
Just missed this bit above
Pace
The last recorded level was FL251 Although its cruising level was reported as FL260.
That could indicate the aircraft was climbing to its cruise level?
In such a situation especially with VS selected and the pilot preoccupied its possible the aircraft stalled.
As stated the stall is bad hence why certain "extras" were required.
I believe? and I dont know a lot about the aircraft that it will flat spin?
One witness reported seeing the aircraft flat spinning!
That is not in itself a high load state enough to break off a wing so surely that must have lead to some recovery manouvre which was a high load?
There are too many possibilities which lead to this very tragic accident and displaying the pictures of such a happy family unit brings it harder to home of what a cruel mistress aviation can be!
Huck: my experiences with Hypoxia in training chambers showed me that at 25 K, it takes about a minute or so to get loopy, for some, and up to three minutes for others. Point? He could have been one of those who goes loopy faster if decompression was what happened.
he plane, a 2006 Pilatus PC-12/47, was at an estimated altitude of 21,500 feet when it began having problems, said Tim Monville, a senior air safety investigator in Miami with the National Transportation Safety BoardT
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 9th Jun 2012 at 09:12.
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If anyone knows the identity of the crew could they please PM me, a friend of mine flies a PC-12 out in Florida and I haven't been able to get in contact with him, which is very unusual and worrying
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OxEagle
All the very tragic details are here
Officials find body of teen killed in Polk plane crash | TBO.com
All the very tragic details are here
Officials find body of teen killed in Polk plane crash | TBO.com
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PC-12 Crash Central Florida
If you look closely at flight aware, there is no sign of CB's in the location. As he gets close to FL260, his speed drops from around 150knots to 60 knots. That indicates he stalled it, then possible spin, hence the turn, then in the ensuing recovery, oversped the airframe and possibly caused some structural damage, which is why the young boy came out of the airplane some distance from the main wreckage. Obviously, he had some control, because he landed right side up intact, except for some of the right wing, and the tail that appears to be missing.
The impact almost looks survivable. As to a midair collision, I think its highly improbable, given that he was in controlled airspace, under Miami centers radar coverage, unless he hit someone on the way down, (not likely).
Real shame, nice looking family, from the photos posted online.
The impact almost looks survivable. As to a midair collision, I think its highly improbable, given that he was in controlled airspace, under Miami centers radar coverage, unless he hit someone on the way down, (not likely).
Real shame, nice looking family, from the photos posted online.
All PC12 have a very efficient Stick pusher installed.
The Stick Pusher is tested before every flight. If it doesnīt pass the test, the autopilot isnīt working and that is a no go.
The Pusher does a very good Job in preventing the airplane from entering a stall.
I am 6 feet male, 220 lbs and I am unable to overpull the stick pusher.
The Pusher works on 2 independent AOA sources and doesnīt need airspeed info.
If this system had been installed on Airbus, I donīt think the AF accident over the south atlantic would have happened.
The Stick Pusher is tested before every flight. If it doesnīt pass the test, the autopilot isnīt working and that is a no go.
The Pusher does a very good Job in preventing the airplane from entering a stall.
I am 6 feet male, 220 lbs and I am unable to overpull the stick pusher.
The Pusher works on 2 independent AOA sources and doesnīt need airspeed info.
If this system had been installed on Airbus, I donīt think the AF accident over the south atlantic would have happened.
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does the PC12 have a restroom of sorts?
could the pilot have left his station to use the biffy and the plane stalled, he was unable to get to controls?
I think all planes should have angle of attack vanes and info in the cockpit...even the Wright brothers had an AOA device (piece of string/yarn)
could the pilot have left his station to use the biffy and the plane stalled, he was unable to get to controls?
I think all planes should have angle of attack vanes and info in the cockpit...even the Wright brothers had an AOA device (piece of string/yarn)
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GroundProxGuy
No one else has picked up on your comment and link to this story. Casey Anthony: Casey Anthony rode on plane that later crashed, killing family of 6 - Orlando Sentinel
What on earth are you suggesting?
No one else has picked up on your comment and link to this story. Casey Anthony: Casey Anthony rode on plane that later crashed, killing family of 6 - Orlando Sentinel
What on earth are you suggesting?
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Wonder what his max ceiling was for his weight - FL260 with 6 on-board, vacation luggage, warmer than standard day, and fuel for Junction City? Might have been unable to make FL260. Got aerodynamic buffet at 25.1 and the stick pusher activated.....
Also, the registration was changed to his company, Roadside Ventures, LLC on 05/14/12. Looks like he only owned it for about 3 weeks.
Also, the registration was changed to his company, Roadside Ventures, LLC on 05/14/12. Looks like he only owned it for about 3 weeks.
Last edited by Murexway; 9th Jun 2012 at 16:29.
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is it possible that the NTSB chap who made the comment that he'd never seen anything like this before, simply inexperienced?
stall, spin, attempted recovery and over stress?
stall, spin, attempted recovery and over stress?
Wonder what his max ceiling was for his weight - FL260 with 6 on-board, vacation luggage, warmer than standard day, and fuel for Junction City? Might have been unable to make FL260. Got aerodynamic buffet at 25.1 and the stick pusher activated.....
PC12 47 is capable of full fuel and 7 male people on board.(EASA standard weight incl. handbaggage,)
It can go up to 30000 feet with that weight without any problems, no matter what temperature.
Limiting Factor for the service ceiling of 30000 ft is the cabin pressure, not the plane or the engine.
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If you look closely at flight aware, there is no sign of CB's in the location. As he gets close to FL260, his speed drops from around 150knots to 60 knots. That indicates he stalled it, then possible spin,
As well as it being possibly inacurate, it also only shows ground speed not indicated..
This data I have copied from flightaware:
Time speed altitude vs
18:28 147 22.500 600
18:29 147 23.100 600
18:30 147 23.700 540
18:31 147 24.200 480
18:32 147 24.700 480
18:33 147 25.200 600
18:34 68 26.000 360
18:35 60 26.000
18:36 255 26.000
18:37 255 26.000
18:38 255 26.000 -720
I am flying the PC12 since 7 Years now. Both, the old 45 , 47 and also the NG.
I very much doubt the flightaware data.
From 18:28 till 1833 the aircraft is keeping an airspeed of 147 kt.
During this time the aircraft climbed from 22500 ft till 25200 ft.
I have never had a flight where the groundspeed was exactly the same for 5 Minutes during a climb. Given that the autopilot was running, holding the airspeed constant, the true airspeed would have increased and the wind would have changed.
18:34 the airplane reached 26000 ft. The airspeed is so low, that the airplane would have stalled. 60 kt true airspeed equals 39 knots indicated airspeed.
If it stalled, it definetely wouldnīt hold the altitude constant during the stall.
At 18:36 for 3 Minutes it has a normal cruise speed of 255 kt again.
The PC12 canīt hold the altitude and accelerate from 60 to 255 knots in one minute.
The Stallspeed oft he PC12/47 clean, max take off weight is 95 kias.
The Stick pusher activates at VSx1.1. So it would kick in at 104,5 kias.
At 26000 ft that would eqal 158 kt true airspeed.
To keep the airplane unstalled with the 60 knots groundspeed flightaware is showing, we need some 98 knots of headwind. Just one minute before that the airplane is climbing with 147 kt of groundspeed.
Add the 98 knots of headwind and the airplane would have climbed with a true airspeed of 245 knots. At this high airspeed the PC12 isnīt climbing in 26000 ft.
This is another Point, that the data in flightaware isnt correct.
It is possible to recover from the stick shaker without altitude loss if you know what will happen and if you are very good trained.
It is impossible to do the same during pusher activation.
During Training at Pilatus for the NG, I had some thousand hours on the 45 already.
The best recovery from pusher was with 500 or 600 ft Altitude loss.
And I was expecting it, had just completed a type rating with EX military instructors and it was in VCM daytime.
I never recovered from that at 26000.
For the last 5 minutes the airplane holds 26000 ft. Any stall or pusher and the aircraft wouldnīt have stayed at 26000.
What ever happened, the flightaware data isnīt showing it.
So I am with Sydy, lets wait for the NTSB
Time speed altitude vs
18:28 147 22.500 600
18:29 147 23.100 600
18:30 147 23.700 540
18:31 147 24.200 480
18:32 147 24.700 480
18:33 147 25.200 600
18:34 68 26.000 360
18:35 60 26.000
18:36 255 26.000
18:37 255 26.000
18:38 255 26.000 -720
I am flying the PC12 since 7 Years now. Both, the old 45 , 47 and also the NG.
I very much doubt the flightaware data.
From 18:28 till 1833 the aircraft is keeping an airspeed of 147 kt.
During this time the aircraft climbed from 22500 ft till 25200 ft.
I have never had a flight where the groundspeed was exactly the same for 5 Minutes during a climb. Given that the autopilot was running, holding the airspeed constant, the true airspeed would have increased and the wind would have changed.
18:34 the airplane reached 26000 ft. The airspeed is so low, that the airplane would have stalled. 60 kt true airspeed equals 39 knots indicated airspeed.
If it stalled, it definetely wouldnīt hold the altitude constant during the stall.
At 18:36 for 3 Minutes it has a normal cruise speed of 255 kt again.
The PC12 canīt hold the altitude and accelerate from 60 to 255 knots in one minute.
The Stallspeed oft he PC12/47 clean, max take off weight is 95 kias.
The Stick pusher activates at VSx1.1. So it would kick in at 104,5 kias.
At 26000 ft that would eqal 158 kt true airspeed.
To keep the airplane unstalled with the 60 knots groundspeed flightaware is showing, we need some 98 knots of headwind. Just one minute before that the airplane is climbing with 147 kt of groundspeed.
Add the 98 knots of headwind and the airplane would have climbed with a true airspeed of 245 knots. At this high airspeed the PC12 isnīt climbing in 26000 ft.
This is another Point, that the data in flightaware isnt correct.
It is possible to recover from the stick shaker without altitude loss if you know what will happen and if you are very good trained.
It is impossible to do the same during pusher activation.
During Training at Pilatus for the NG, I had some thousand hours on the 45 already.
The best recovery from pusher was with 500 or 600 ft Altitude loss.
And I was expecting it, had just completed a type rating with EX military instructors and it was in VCM daytime.
I never recovered from that at 26000.
For the last 5 minutes the airplane holds 26000 ft. Any stall or pusher and the aircraft wouldnīt have stayed at 26000.
What ever happened, the flightaware data isnīt showing it.
So I am with Sydy, lets wait for the NTSB
Last edited by inbalance; 9th Jun 2012 at 21:38.