Business Aviation Asia (BAA)
Join Date: Apr 2008
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BAA is one of the largest co's in China... some room to move around once you get there... lots of turnover in the office, so expect things to fall through the cracks... plan to do it their way, whatever it is, it's 180 off from "your way".
Bad news: they will jam it to you as soon as necessary. Also, they won't budge on any issue... I hear that the last 4 guys to leave were NOT given their final pay check for one BS reason or another...
no one seems sure as to how it will turn out after the buy-out a few months ago .
The Gov't can't decide how to screw aircraft owners, but boy are they trying!
... Factor it all in.
FR
Bad news: they will jam it to you as soon as necessary. Also, they won't budge on any issue... I hear that the last 4 guys to leave were NOT given their final pay check for one BS reason or another...
no one seems sure as to how it will turn out after the buy-out a few months ago .
The Gov't can't decide how to screw aircraft owners, but boy are they trying!
... Factor it all in.
FR
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: California USA
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I went to the Dallas career fair and their North American Hiring Rep Luke Lee was there..
I didn't get much information, but what I did get is that they're getting more Legacies that will be based in Macao. Plan to go and get the CAAC done and placed on an aircraft inside their system first, then can transfer to Macao if you want.
There is no typical schedule as crews are assigned to an airplane or a couple airplanes that are managed for different clients... some pilots may fly 5 days a month and some may fly 15. You have 4 hard days off per month, with 28 vacation days a year and a ticket home.
3 year contract and the Legacy pay was $12,700 / month for captains (that includes housing)
I didn't get much information, but what I did get is that they're getting more Legacies that will be based in Macao. Plan to go and get the CAAC done and placed on an aircraft inside their system first, then can transfer to Macao if you want.
There is no typical schedule as crews are assigned to an airplane or a couple airplanes that are managed for different clients... some pilots may fly 5 days a month and some may fly 15. You have 4 hard days off per month, with 28 vacation days a year and a ticket home.
3 year contract and the Legacy pay was $12,700 / month for captains (that includes housing)
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..... 4 hard days off a month?
< insert laugh track>
The Chinese catch on quickly, they must of searched the internet for a book called "how to screw over crews" from some 135 operator in FLA. I was with a BAA challenger guy in HK, and he got an email Saturday at 9PM saying that he was off all day Sunday...
FR
< insert laugh track>
The Chinese catch on quickly, they must of searched the internet for a book called "how to screw over crews" from some 135 operator in FLA. I was with a BAA challenger guy in HK, and he got an email Saturday at 9PM saying that he was off all day Sunday...
FR
Join Date: Apr 2008
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I hear that 8-10 BAA guys left this summer on their own accord for one reason or another, and another 6-10 are shaking the bushes to find new jobs, but haven't got a list... Not sure how many are on this PP thing.
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Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: China
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Hi all, long-time lurker, first time poster here. I've been with BAA for a while, and people were hoping for some gouge from someone on property:
The four days off / month thing is indeed the policy at BAA. I caught the bit about someone receiving an email Saturday about their "day off" on Sunday. This is as close to "advance notice" as we sometimes get. Quite often, we'll be awarded a "day off" retroactively, when we see our weekly roster and find out that a day we sat reserve (and were not used) became a day off in the interest of contract compliance. In practice, we're pretty much on reserve all month, in our base city or on the road. The flip side of that is that most of us don't exactly do an exhausting schedule. Some planes do some very trying schedules, others are strictly ramp jewelry, most are somewhere in the middle.
Vacation time is a huge weak point - it's 28 days a year, subject to the whims of the flight department, schedulers, and aircraft owners. This issue has become especially combative in recent months. The current vacation regime has been in place since the beginning of this year, and they have made very few friends. For an operation that offers less time off than any of it's Chinese competitors in the private or airline worlds, this has led to some VERY frayed nerves.
For a region that is slowly coming around to the idea of commuting contracts, BAA seems to be going the other way entirely. A handful of pilots have been given month-on, month-off contracts under unique circumstances in the past. The unofficial word from the company is that they don't like the idea, and they appear to have no intention of offering them as a common option.
Luke said plan to come through and get your CAAC work done, and then "transfer to Macau if you want"? I find that claim HIGHLY suspect. Granting of requested base transfers is more or less unheard of at BAA without YEARS of kicking and screaming, as many of our Beijing crews can confirm. The crew that has recently been hired to fly a VP-tail plane out of Macau never got their CAAC licenses at all, and will be living in Shenzhen and taking the ferry boat to work. Macau basing has not been offered or even rumored. I can't exactly say Luke's lying, but the scenario you described from the job fair is without precedent at BAA. Flexibility is not the name of the game here. Pilots have, in the past, been awarded improved aircraft and/or new bases, but these arrangements are made at the convenience of the company, not the employee.
Outgoing pilots who have completed their contracts have run into issues ranging from failure to deliver final paychecks to refusal to release CAAC licenses. Just recently, several mainland-based pilots (including at least one who isn't even leaving) were delivered notice from the Hong Kong taxman, stating their intention to collect a massive chunk of money as BAA had not succeeded in arranging their exemption from HK taxes. That was very unwelcome news, as whatever other issues people have with BAA, the paychecks come on time and are fairly generous. The latest word is that the company is helping get the issue settled with some degree of cooperation, at least in these most recent cases.
Frank's numbers on pilots shuffling off for bigger and better things seem believable. Aside from those currently out the door, most people here seem to have the same attitude - that this isn't such a bad job to have, while you're looking for your next job. Pilots for years have pointed to the same issues that, if fixed, could make this a very good place to work. Some things, like the pay, have improved in my time here. Other things seem to be sliding the other way. The number of good people in the office still outweighs the bad in my opinion, but they're still struggling with the kinds of problems common with other Chinese operators. And the bad ones can be VERY nasty indeed.
I can certainly recommend distressed job seekers come take a look, as well as people who receive an offer on a good type rating and acceptable base IN WRITING before arriving on property. But many pilots here, including some of the old guard, are exploring their options. I'd suggest all prospective newcomers do the same.
The four days off / month thing is indeed the policy at BAA. I caught the bit about someone receiving an email Saturday about their "day off" on Sunday. This is as close to "advance notice" as we sometimes get. Quite often, we'll be awarded a "day off" retroactively, when we see our weekly roster and find out that a day we sat reserve (and were not used) became a day off in the interest of contract compliance. In practice, we're pretty much on reserve all month, in our base city or on the road. The flip side of that is that most of us don't exactly do an exhausting schedule. Some planes do some very trying schedules, others are strictly ramp jewelry, most are somewhere in the middle.
Vacation time is a huge weak point - it's 28 days a year, subject to the whims of the flight department, schedulers, and aircraft owners. This issue has become especially combative in recent months. The current vacation regime has been in place since the beginning of this year, and they have made very few friends. For an operation that offers less time off than any of it's Chinese competitors in the private or airline worlds, this has led to some VERY frayed nerves.
For a region that is slowly coming around to the idea of commuting contracts, BAA seems to be going the other way entirely. A handful of pilots have been given month-on, month-off contracts under unique circumstances in the past. The unofficial word from the company is that they don't like the idea, and they appear to have no intention of offering them as a common option.
Luke said plan to come through and get your CAAC work done, and then "transfer to Macau if you want"? I find that claim HIGHLY suspect. Granting of requested base transfers is more or less unheard of at BAA without YEARS of kicking and screaming, as many of our Beijing crews can confirm. The crew that has recently been hired to fly a VP-tail plane out of Macau never got their CAAC licenses at all, and will be living in Shenzhen and taking the ferry boat to work. Macau basing has not been offered or even rumored. I can't exactly say Luke's lying, but the scenario you described from the job fair is without precedent at BAA. Flexibility is not the name of the game here. Pilots have, in the past, been awarded improved aircraft and/or new bases, but these arrangements are made at the convenience of the company, not the employee.
Outgoing pilots who have completed their contracts have run into issues ranging from failure to deliver final paychecks to refusal to release CAAC licenses. Just recently, several mainland-based pilots (including at least one who isn't even leaving) were delivered notice from the Hong Kong taxman, stating their intention to collect a massive chunk of money as BAA had not succeeded in arranging their exemption from HK taxes. That was very unwelcome news, as whatever other issues people have with BAA, the paychecks come on time and are fairly generous. The latest word is that the company is helping get the issue settled with some degree of cooperation, at least in these most recent cases.
Frank's numbers on pilots shuffling off for bigger and better things seem believable. Aside from those currently out the door, most people here seem to have the same attitude - that this isn't such a bad job to have, while you're looking for your next job. Pilots for years have pointed to the same issues that, if fixed, could make this a very good place to work. Some things, like the pay, have improved in my time here. Other things seem to be sliding the other way. The number of good people in the office still outweighs the bad in my opinion, but they're still struggling with the kinds of problems common with other Chinese operators. And the bad ones can be VERY nasty indeed.
I can certainly recommend distressed job seekers come take a look, as well as people who receive an offer on a good type rating and acceptable base IN WRITING before arriving on property. But many pilots here, including some of the old guard, are exploring their options. I'd suggest all prospective newcomers do the same.
Last edited by Request Progressive; 24th Oct 2014 at 17:56.
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Thanks for all the good information about BAA. Just curious if you know the pay? Not asking what you make but trying to get an idea. I had been talking with Minsheng and they were offering 17,000 for the Legacy and just read BAA was 12,700 seems like a pretty big difference.
Minsheng also offered 10 days off in a row. Alot different from what BAA is offering now. Jack had previously told me 8 days at minimum and possibly all together.
Just trying to get a real idea of what is going on and how it will work once they merge. I am supposed to be going there next month for a interview so any info would be helpful !!
Minsheng also offered 10 days off in a row. Alot different from what BAA is offering now. Jack had previously told me 8 days at minimum and possibly all together.
Just trying to get a real idea of what is going on and how it will work once they merge. I am supposed to be going there next month for a interview so any info would be helpful !!
Join Date: Oct 2014
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As far as I know, the information you've got about Minsheng is accurate. All I can tell you for certain is that the payscale for BAA is correct, but the other information matches what I've heard about Minsheng. So yes, the Minsheng contract is miles ahead of BAA's in virtually every respect. The possibility of improvement at BAA should not be ruled out, but since the merger was announced, there has been not so much as a hint that BAA's contract will be brought up to par with Minsheng.
I heard through one of the recruiting agencies very recently that a pilot did the interview, medical and screening for Minsheng, and was then offered an inferior contract with BAA on the same aircraft. I didn't hear if he accepted the offer, but he was understandably confused. He had specifically chosen to screen for Minsheng instead of BAA for the aforementioned reasons.
One thing we do know is that the plan is to keep BAA and Minsheng operations seperate, and for the current management to remain in place. If a pilot were to come to BAA right now, they would be employed by BAA, on a BAA contract, and their CAAC license would be held by BAA. I could not recommend signing a BAA contract with the expectation that it will be amended to equal that of Minsheng.
I heard through one of the recruiting agencies very recently that a pilot did the interview, medical and screening for Minsheng, and was then offered an inferior contract with BAA on the same aircraft. I didn't hear if he accepted the offer, but he was understandably confused. He had specifically chosen to screen for Minsheng instead of BAA for the aforementioned reasons.
One thing we do know is that the plan is to keep BAA and Minsheng operations seperate, and for the current management to remain in place. If a pilot were to come to BAA right now, they would be employed by BAA, on a BAA contract, and their CAAC license would be held by BAA. I could not recommend signing a BAA contract with the expectation that it will be amended to equal that of Minsheng.
Join Date: Jan 2015
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Minsheng acquiring BAA
Hi all -
I am hoping this thread can help me. I have a very good friend who has been hired on with Minsheng as a pilot. He has worked with the recruitment company Wasinc and was hired on in the summer of 2014. When he was initially hired on, he was told his visa paperwork would take a few weeks; however, it took 6 months. Is this normal?
Then, he was told and signed a contract with Minsheng that would allow him 8 days off per month, may be taken consecutively and then the 10 days of paid leave per year that UPS mentioned in his post in October. His plan was to save up his days off per month and return home to the states to see family and friends every couple of months. Do you know if this is do-able under the Minsheng contract?
Third, it appears Minsheng acquired BAA and there has now been some discussion that they will change the current hired pilots contracts to the BAA...which I think is a total of 28 days off per year plus 12 paid holidays? Can someone verify this? And can someone tell me if Minsheng or Wasinc or BAA can void the contract he signed and make him sign another contract?
If he decides that the new BAA contract is not something he is willing to agree to, does anyone have any insight on what would happen next? Would he just be fired? Unfortunately, my friend doesn't seem to ask a lot of questions to his recruiter or his boss and everyone has been left wondering if this is such a smart idea to get involved with.
Thank you all for helping!
I am hoping this thread can help me. I have a very good friend who has been hired on with Minsheng as a pilot. He has worked with the recruitment company Wasinc and was hired on in the summer of 2014. When he was initially hired on, he was told his visa paperwork would take a few weeks; however, it took 6 months. Is this normal?
Then, he was told and signed a contract with Minsheng that would allow him 8 days off per month, may be taken consecutively and then the 10 days of paid leave per year that UPS mentioned in his post in October. His plan was to save up his days off per month and return home to the states to see family and friends every couple of months. Do you know if this is do-able under the Minsheng contract?
Third, it appears Minsheng acquired BAA and there has now been some discussion that they will change the current hired pilots contracts to the BAA...which I think is a total of 28 days off per year plus 12 paid holidays? Can someone verify this? And can someone tell me if Minsheng or Wasinc or BAA can void the contract he signed and make him sign another contract?
If he decides that the new BAA contract is not something he is willing to agree to, does anyone have any insight on what would happen next? Would he just be fired? Unfortunately, my friend doesn't seem to ask a lot of questions to his recruiter or his boss and everyone has been left wondering if this is such a smart idea to get involved with.
Thank you all for helping!
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Have an upcoming Interview with BAA
Hi Guys,
Any recent BAA interviewees or current BAA pilots around the who might be able to give me some info on there current interview process and best way to study up for it and the written test?!
Any info would be greatly appreciated!
Any recent BAA interviewees or current BAA pilots around the who might be able to give me some info on there current interview process and best way to study up for it and the written test?!
Any info would be greatly appreciated!
Join Date: Oct 2014
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Word from the current Minsheng guys I've heard is that they are being given a BAA-quality contract to sign; take it or leave it. I've been told they're keeping their pay, but stuck with all BAA vacation time and work rules, which were markedly worse than the Minsheng contract. The news has pissed a lot of people off - Minsheng guys who were given a rather vicious bait-and-switch, and BAA guys who were hanging on for an upgrade to the Minsheng contract after the merge. Resignation rates have increased accordingly.
The fact of the matter is, BAA lacks the kind of foresight, flexibility and basic intelligence to allow its pilots the kind of freedom that Minsheng pilots were promised. If two weeks at home every six months is not acceptable, this is not the place to be. It'll be interesting to see what the former Minsheng-contracted employees will do, as their new overlords have unilaterally voided their agreements. For those still interested in staying, my previous gripes about conditions at BAA still stand, trending worse as time goes on.
The fact of the matter is, BAA lacks the kind of foresight, flexibility and basic intelligence to allow its pilots the kind of freedom that Minsheng pilots were promised. If two weeks at home every six months is not acceptable, this is not the place to be. It'll be interesting to see what the former Minsheng-contracted employees will do, as their new overlords have unilaterally voided their agreements. For those still interested in staying, my previous gripes about conditions at BAA still stand, trending worse as time goes on.
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Contract Release
Anyone know the procedure for getting your license and medical released after your contract expires? Deer Jet is not wanting to provide a letter of Release so I can get a job with another China company. Anyone had this problem and successfully remedied it?
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That is ridiculours. As far as I know, BAA will let you go if you come to BAA with the CAAC license. However, if you get the CAAC license at BAA, they probably charge a sum of money as license cost.
Join Date: Apr 2008
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... I don't think ANY Chinese company will let you go. Not BAA, not DJ, not any of them, unless you piss them off and they actually fire you.
But then they tell everyone they fired you.
It's sort of like working for a 135 operator in S. FLA or VNY...
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But then they tell everyone they fired you.
It's sort of like working for a 135 operator in S. FLA or VNY...
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Steer Clear
Unless someone is desperate for a job or can't be hired anywhere else, it is highly recommended you steer away from this company. I departed about a year back but still keep in touch with a few who remain. They are too paranoid to talk it up, so I'm doing it for them. Things are really doing down hill lately and they have recently signed on with NetJets. In no time, the pilots who remain will all be demoted to FO and given line numbers...slightly sarcastic but don't put the idea of something negative coming out of this business venture for the crews. Within the company information is never dispersed about anything and the crews are "officially" notified via news tickers and left in total darkness. Recently they have been redoing contracts and imposing additional or amended clauses about separation terms with heavy penalties. Many pilots are grumbling and throwing fits, but BAA doesn't compromise unless it somehow will benefit them. Trying to plan a vacation???....yeah...not going to happen. Getting leave approved is like trying to get a law passed within the US Congress (sorry Yanks). Nothing gets done fast enough and they usually come back and say your request is too far in advance to approve, or simply deny it due to potential scheduling conflicts. This is probably due to their pilot shortage which is only gonna get worse. Historically they have adamantly refused rotation schedules, but recently they have brought on this "fantastic" idea called a 60/30, but at a significant pay cut, not to mention they require you to perform recurrent training on your time off along with your work visa paperwork. If you do the math, you'll see its not a true rotation, but just a way for them to squeeze more out of their pilots...and then maybe plan your time off. I am not aware if many have taken them up on this yet and I believe its only for certain aircraft types, but don't quote me on that. They are making these pilots sign new contracts with those amended clauses about early-termination penalties amongst several other items. Furthermore, if you ever have a problem while flying the line and need to call their dispatch, good luck unless you speak Chinese. This "Operations Center" is manned by 20 something year old kids who can barely speak English of any variety and don't know a bloody thing about aviation. Putting aside all these things, the pay is ok but the company is consistently dreaming up ways to make reductions. Living in China has its many obstacles besides the language and culture and if your thinking about bringing your family here, you might want to checkout something called an AQI Index. Doesn't matter what city your in, your health is gonna suffer and if your based in a heavily polluted city, then good luck with your family. You have been warned, but then again, if your absolutely desperate you might want to try it out. Its not all shabby, but for us experienced guys, the negatives definitely outweigh the positives and there are way better biz jet offers out there with commuting and better contract terms. Steer clear if at all possible!
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Don't know much about the current climate at BAA, only to know that two guys who left a few years back have gone begging for their position, and got it back...
Try to get your complete info, good or bad. Sometimes (most times)? there are two sides to the story! I bet the feelings are mutual.
Apply everywhere, and take the best offered,
FR
Try to get your complete info, good or bad. Sometimes (most times)? there are two sides to the story! I bet the feelings are mutual.
Apply everywhere, and take the best offered,
FR
