Flying to Bermuda... BE400A
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: ME
Posts: 5,505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OEW 11092
5 Pax 925
Fuel 4600
Total = 16617
Max Structural Takeoff Weight = 16300.
Amount over MTOW = 317 lbs.....
But you knew this, didn't you?
You actually sound like the reincarnation of SSG......
Mutt
5 Pax 925
Fuel 4600
Total = 16617
Max Structural Takeoff Weight = 16300.
Amount over MTOW = 317 lbs.....
But you knew this, didn't you?
You actually sound like the reincarnation of SSG......
Mutt
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Where it's Too Cold
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mutt....
BE400 BEW is in the 10500 range...nice try....
But maybe you need tripple efis, HUDS, a complete EFIS retrofit, the big oxy bottle, a full shower in back with a stripper pole?
BE400 BEW is in the 10500 range...nice try....
But maybe you need tripple efis, HUDS, a complete EFIS retrofit, the big oxy bottle, a full shower in back with a stripper pole?
How come Hawker-Beech has the BEW at 10,985? And his Operating Empty Weight at 11,092 is, in reality, pretty close to your Basic Empty Weight. I'll concede you can make the numbers work, if the pax are willing to go thru Dare Cty Airport, most folks going to BDA start out of NYC or DC, if not more inside the US. Secondly, do you have a dry footprint landing at the shoreline with 1100#?
You really do enjoy winding up the professionals with your "ah shucks, I'm just a country lawyer" approach to aviation. You do realize the way you migh operate that Citation or Hawker would not pass in the FAR 121 world?
GF
You really do enjoy winding up the professionals with your "ah shucks, I'm just a country lawyer" approach to aviation. You do realize the way you migh operate that Citation or Hawker would not pass in the FAR 121 world?
GF
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: California
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fickle...
I admit I know nothing about BE 400 ops but I do know that TXKF poses a unique challenge: an ETP must be calculated at your turn around point over the airport. In the event of cabin pressure loss at the ETP, usually the most limiting factor in marginal types on flights of this sort, can you still make it back to MQI?
Also, with regards to your planning, MQI has no US Customs service so you would not be using that airport for any Int'l return flight.
I admit I know nothing about BE 400 ops but I do know that TXKF poses a unique challenge: an ETP must be calculated at your turn around point over the airport. In the event of cabin pressure loss at the ETP, usually the most limiting factor in marginal types on flights of this sort, can you still make it back to MQI?
Also, with regards to your planning, MQI has no US Customs service so you would not be using that airport for any Int'l return flight.
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Where it's Too Cold
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
KJC...
Tons of customs airports nearby..
MQI to Bermuda at FL390/4600 lbs......Mutt and Galaxy see Bermuda is over run by aliens, take a ray gun hit to the fuselage...fall asleep...Jesus feeling sorry for dumb people, sets the alt to 14k, pulls back to LR cruise...lands with 1900 lbs...
It's only a 586 NM trip...
I hate to drive this home, but if guys on here can't do this trip on paper, I don't have much hope they can do this in real life....
Tons of customs airports nearby..
MQI to Bermuda at FL390/4600 lbs......Mutt and Galaxy see Bermuda is over run by aliens, take a ray gun hit to the fuselage...fall asleep...Jesus feeling sorry for dumb people, sets the alt to 14k, pulls back to LR cruise...lands with 1900 lbs...
It's only a 586 NM trip...
I hate to drive this home, but if guys on here can't do this trip on paper, I don't have much hope they can do this in real life....
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: ME
Posts: 5,505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flight Safety were very clear in specifying that flight crew were a necessity
RK-58x
Basic Weight = 10710
Crew = 340
Provisions/Misc = 60
Operating Weight Empty = 11110
Now I can print the weight reports for another 5 RK numbers and they all come within 50 lbs......... Look at the AFM section 6, weight and balance and you will find a weight and balance loading form
Now where did you learn to fly the BE40?
Mutt
RK-58x
Basic Weight = 10710
Crew = 340
Provisions/Misc = 60
Operating Weight Empty = 11110
Now I can print the weight reports for another 5 RK numbers and they all come within 50 lbs......... Look at the AFM section 6, weight and balance and you will find a weight and balance loading form
Now where did you learn to fly the BE40?
Mutt
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Where it's Too Cold
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BEECHJET 400A Specifications & Photo
BEW 10585
Hawker 400 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
BEW 10050
BEECHCRAFT BEECHJET 400A Performance and Operating Costs What2fly.com
BEW 10510
I've proven the burns, the BEW, all your options...
Face it, while your arguing over how to do this trip..I would have already done it. Case closed.
BEW 10585
Hawker 400 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
BEW 10050
BEECHCRAFT BEECHJET 400A Performance and Operating Costs What2fly.com
BEW 10510
I've proven the burns, the BEW, all your options...
Face it, while your arguing over how to do this trip..I would have already done it. Case closed.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: ME
Posts: 5,505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I love your sources of data...........But if you wish to look at this data,BEECHJET 400A Specifications & Photo then look at the NBAA IFR Fuel Reserves range of 1150...... As you said yourself, the distance is 586 nms each way, so that's 1172 nms. 
Oops, so you plan to do this without reserves? And you even intend to land, taxi in, drop off passengers, taxi out and fly back!
Come on, put me out of my misery, admit that you are the reincarnation of SSG......
Mutt
Oops, so you plan to do this without reserves? And you even intend to land, taxi in, drop off passengers, taxi out and fly back!
Come on, put me out of my misery, admit that you are the reincarnation of SSG......
Mutt
Aviator Extraordinaire
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Age: 76
Posts: 2,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You know reading the posts by the 'now banned one' reminded me of the old days.
Back in the mid 70s we used to think nothing of jumping into a Jet Commander with a couple of passengers, takeoff from OKC and go non-stop to CUN, which is around 1,100 nm. Right at the limit of the VFR range of the old beast. We'd land with about 45 minutes of fuel and there was one airport very close, Cozumel, in case we had to divert if the one runway was unusable for some reason, which it never was in all the years I flew down there. So, no problems, right?
Flash forward many years and I'm sitting a 900EX heading over the Atlantic toward London one day and started thinking about 'good' old days. About flying from OKC to CUN, two thirds of which was over the widest part of the Gulf of Mexico. So, I have three FMSs in the cockpit with me, so I take number three and run a sample flight plan, with a dry foot print required.
Oops. There was a period of about 15 minutes*, give or take a couple of minutes, that there was no way we could have made dry land, let alone an airport, with an engine loss or loss of pressurization while over the gulf. We could have had a dry footprint if we stopped in Huston and refueled. But non-stop from OKC, no way.
I guess that just proves that God looks out for fools and young, stupid pilots.
* And that is a generous figure, the wrong way, then.
Back in the mid 70s we used to think nothing of jumping into a Jet Commander with a couple of passengers, takeoff from OKC and go non-stop to CUN, which is around 1,100 nm. Right at the limit of the VFR range of the old beast. We'd land with about 45 minutes of fuel and there was one airport very close, Cozumel, in case we had to divert if the one runway was unusable for some reason, which it never was in all the years I flew down there. So, no problems, right?
Flash forward many years and I'm sitting a 900EX heading over the Atlantic toward London one day and started thinking about 'good' old days. About flying from OKC to CUN, two thirds of which was over the widest part of the Gulf of Mexico. So, I have three FMSs in the cockpit with me, so I take number three and run a sample flight plan, with a dry foot print required.
Oops. There was a period of about 15 minutes*, give or take a couple of minutes, that there was no way we could have made dry land, let alone an airport, with an engine loss or loss of pressurization while over the gulf. We could have had a dry footprint if we stopped in Huston and refueled. But non-stop from OKC, no way.
I guess that just proves that God looks out for fools and young, stupid pilots.
* And that is a generous figure, the wrong way, then.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: California
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Everyone wants to fly to the islands. In my case (California based) they all want to go to Hawaii.
Often overlooked by newbie flight planners: Does the ship have enough oxygen for all pax if at ETP there's a loss of cabin pressure....for 3+ hours?
Also, we assume our flight planned altitude is available. Often not the case on the Hawaii or NAT tracks.
Often overlooked by newbie flight planners: Does the ship have enough oxygen for all pax if at ETP there's a loss of cabin pressure....for 3+ hours?
Also, we assume our flight planned altitude is available. Often not the case on the Hawaii or NAT tracks.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Seat 2L
Age: 75
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While reading this most interesting thread, I do admit I've grown fonder of our airplane and its enormous range. I am a former pilot (grounded 21 years ago) and now an aircraft owner. I found this thread downright fascinating.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Somewhere
Age: 42
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gosh I hate to be the bad guy...but the 400 that I fly is 10612...
Ran the numbers with 5 pax from MQI, figuring a return with topped fuel from Bermuda to a customs airport...
First off, a 1200 nm trip in a 400 is cake, so that's over and back...
If you lose pressurization half way there...no problem turning back, considering your topped with 4600 lbs.....if you get over Bermuda, the airport is closed, then you ALSO lose pressurization...you'll need a bottle big enough for 7 peeps for a 1.5 hour trip...that's not an issue...you could even drop down to FL18000 or even 14000 and make it back...especially if you pull back to long range fuel if you run out of O2...so worst case, your over Bermuda...no airport and lose pressurization...well you suck on o2 for 45 minutes, drop down to 14k for an hour on LR cruise...easy..
Anyway...all my number keep coming up returning to the states with better then 1800 lbs...that about double what some guys use for a reserve on this model.
Ran the numbers with 5 pax from MQI, figuring a return with topped fuel from Bermuda to a customs airport...
First off, a 1200 nm trip in a 400 is cake, so that's over and back...
If you lose pressurization half way there...no problem turning back, considering your topped with 4600 lbs.....if you get over Bermuda, the airport is closed, then you ALSO lose pressurization...you'll need a bottle big enough for 7 peeps for a 1.5 hour trip...that's not an issue...you could even drop down to FL18000 or even 14000 and make it back...especially if you pull back to long range fuel if you run out of O2...so worst case, your over Bermuda...no airport and lose pressurization...well you suck on o2 for 45 minutes, drop down to 14k for an hour on LR cruise...easy..
Anyway...all my number keep coming up returning to the states with better then 1800 lbs...that about double what some guys use for a reserve on this model.
Suck on O2 at what flight level? The answer for depressurization is not oxygen, it's FL 100. Few planes have enough oxygen, unless optional tanks installed, for a diversion from the ETP.
GF
GF
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: ME
Posts: 5,505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Welcome back SSG, we missed you....... Oops sorry whenrealityhurts.... now considering that you are qualified to fly the Hawker 400, I presume that you are going to follow the approved checklist for a Cabin Decompression... Look at item 9.... Cabin Pressure Source - EMER.
Now I presume that you do know how the EMER system works and the impact on the cabin?
I also presume that you know the available oxygen duration for 7 people, look at the Oxygen Duration chart in the AOM.
To be blunt with you, i enjoy these debates, you actually bring out some interesting view points regardless of what guise you are using. I enjoyed reading the Climb Gradient discussion and the previous discussion on Reduced Thrust, but you have to learn where to draw the line between discussion and being antagonistic.
Mutt
Now I presume that you do know how the EMER system works and the impact on the cabin?
I also presume that you know the available oxygen duration for 7 people, look at the Oxygen Duration chart in the AOM.
To be blunt with you, i enjoy these debates, you actually bring out some interesting view points regardless of what guise you are using. I enjoyed reading the Climb Gradient discussion and the previous discussion on Reduced Thrust, but you have to learn where to draw the line between discussion and being antagonistic.
Mutt
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Somewhere
Age: 42
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mutt -
BE400s come with a variety of O2 bottle sizes..some are little, just big enough to get down from Alt to 12500, others are for extended flying..
I think some reality should be put in this thread..
If you do this trip, your getting updates on Bermuda's airport...the chances that it is destroyed while in the pattern is pretty remote...so you have 587 miles to turn around...
Even if over Bermuda, the airport goes down, you can stay at alt, fly home easy...if by chance you lose pres as well...you could go EMER to say FL240, then say 100% till the bottle runs out, depending on size...and if it does en route...then drop down to 12500 to 14000 for the rest of the trip.
I calculate flying over at FL390 then flying back at 12500...no problem...the O2 bottle wasn't in the equation with regard to fuel calcs..so assuming a small bottle, you just use it get down fast to 12500...fly home...
No doubt if you did this trip allot you'd set up the plane with the big bottle to be safe.
BE400s come with a variety of O2 bottle sizes..some are little, just big enough to get down from Alt to 12500, others are for extended flying..
I think some reality should be put in this thread..
If you do this trip, your getting updates on Bermuda's airport...the chances that it is destroyed while in the pattern is pretty remote...so you have 587 miles to turn around...
Even if over Bermuda, the airport goes down, you can stay at alt, fly home easy...if by chance you lose pres as well...you could go EMER to say FL240, then say 100% till the bottle runs out, depending on size...and if it does en route...then drop down to 12500 to 14000 for the rest of the trip.
I calculate flying over at FL390 then flying back at 12500...no problem...the O2 bottle wasn't in the equation with regard to fuel calcs..so assuming a small bottle, you just use it get down fast to 12500...fly home...
No doubt if you did this trip allot you'd set up the plane with the big bottle to be safe.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 44
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the 4600 5 pax calculation is funny. As even including the conversion the bird has my T/O weight of 16.300lbs. And I never ever had seens a beechjet400 with lower empty weight as of 10.600
10.600 + 2 crew (160lbs each) = 10.920
+ 4600 lbs fuel (Beechjet400a can carrie up to 4912 - yes we all count 4.800)
15.520
5 pax 180lbs = 900lbs
16.420
And no one flys to Bermuda with no luggage = 150 lbs
16.570lbs ...
+ taxi fuel + conti +...
So what your calculation is rubbish
10.600 + 2 crew (160lbs each) = 10.920
+ 4600 lbs fuel (Beechjet400a can carrie up to 4912 - yes we all count 4.800)
15.520
5 pax 180lbs = 900lbs
16.420
And no one flys to Bermuda with no luggage = 150 lbs
16.570lbs ...
+ taxi fuel + conti +...
So what your calculation is rubbish
