Falcon 7X Suspension of Flight Ops
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The on-site investigation of the aircraft that experienced the anomaly is complete but did not reveal the root cause
With 112 aircraft delivered at about $40m each, that's an extremely expensive amount of metal to be sitting around...... When does the manufacturer have to start reimbursing the owners for lost revenue and external charter expenses?
Mutt
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Mutt - I think like my Client, Saudia Private Aviation had many delays on their aircraft due to Jet's mistakes in Basel. Given this new occurrence, the Saudis must be well p****d off at matters at this moment in time - true?
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preliminary details
Dassault has provided preliminary details of modifications that will allow crews to deselect auto pitch trim and introduces a new surveillance system to detect and stop pitch trim runaways.
These modifications are being tested but still require EASA approval. Dassault has said that a best case scenario may see the first aircraft modified by mid June however, an end of June return to normal operations is more realistic.
the proposed modifications do not address the cause of the Malaysian incident but will limit the adverse of a pitch trim runaway to the extent that the current weight/altitude/speed restrictions will be removed.
These modifications are being tested but still require EASA approval. Dassault has said that a best case scenario may see the first aircraft modified by mid June however, an end of June return to normal operations is more realistic.
the proposed modifications do not address the cause of the Malaysian incident but will limit the adverse of a pitch trim runaway to the extent that the current weight/altitude/speed restrictions will be removed.
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Rabbit Air AG (Swiss) flying KTEB - LFSB HB-JGI
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Said aircraft departed this morning at 0715 local time back to France for further investigation. Flown by test pilots sans pax.Should be landing soon, hopefully.
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"Come on now, the 7x has been flying for 4 years now with no major problems.
Now it seems that every flight is at risk of crash"
You'll be singing a different tune if you were flying the affected aircraft. If it was never a threat to safety,do you think Dassault would request the EAD?
"This condition, if occurring again, could lead to loss of control of the aeroplane"
Now it seems that every flight is at risk of crash"
You'll be singing a different tune if you were flying the affected aircraft. If it was never a threat to safety,do you think Dassault would request the EAD?
"This condition, if occurring again, could lead to loss of control of the aeroplane"
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You'll be singing a different tune if you were flying the affected aircraft. If it was never a threat to safety,do you think Dassault would request the EAD?
"This condition, if occurring again, could lead to loss of control of the aeroplane"
"This condition, if occurring again, could lead to loss of control of the aeroplane"
Yes there is a problem and Dassault is working on solving, and they asked to ground the aircraft till they solve it.
But is not that the 7x suddenly became a killer aircraft.
We are talking about a ferry flight, with the pilots aware of the fact that they have to keep an extra eye to what the aircraft is doing. The problem with the aircraft in Malaysia is that what happened, happened suddenly, unexpected, and this can lead to loss of control on any aircraft(and it did happen)
If you are ferrying an aircraft that you know that a similar problem could happen you would be extra careful and watching the trim closely.
No need to put your soul in the hands of your god and say your prayers that hopefully everything goes well.
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@flydive1
That assumes, however, that there is a means available of mitigating the risk or the consequences. Just knowing it could happen and being ready doesn't help much if, for example, there isn't enough elevator authority to counter a full stab runaway, and you don't have a reliable means of turning the stab off. The fact that they are allowing ferries presumably means that some mitigation has been defined, perhaps with specific procedures or limitations.
That assumes, however, that there is a means available of mitigating the risk or the consequences. Just knowing it could happen and being ready doesn't help much if, for example, there isn't enough elevator authority to counter a full stab runaway, and you don't have a reliable means of turning the stab off. The fact that they are allowing ferries presumably means that some mitigation has been defined, perhaps with specific procedures or limitations.
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Of course.
I do not know the Falcon 7x specifically, but other aircraft I flown have a trim disconnect switch, I would be surprised if the 7x did not have one.
Of course if you are in normal operations, quite relaxed, descending on autopilot, a trim runaway can go a long way before you are able to react to it.
Is different if you are watching it because it might happen.
And since Dassault grounded the aircraft because of the problem, I do not think they would allow ferry flight lightly(hey, it's only pilots on board
). If they believed that the aircraft could kill you at any time they would not allow any flight. And I'm also pretty sure that they issued restrictions and procedures for the flight to be conducted safely.
Personally I would have absolutely no problems to ferry such aircraft.
I do not know the Falcon 7x specifically, but other aircraft I flown have a trim disconnect switch, I would be surprised if the 7x did not have one.
Of course if you are in normal operations, quite relaxed, descending on autopilot, a trim runaway can go a long way before you are able to react to it.
Is different if you are watching it because it might happen.
And since Dassault grounded the aircraft because of the problem, I do not think they would allow ferry flight lightly(hey, it's only pilots on board
). If they believed that the aircraft could kill you at any time they would not allow any flight. And I'm also pretty sure that they issued restrictions and procedures for the flight to be conducted safely.Personally I would have absolutely no problems to ferry such aircraft.
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Hmm, agreed. But if it might not work (which might have been an issue here, compounding the problems) ... then you need a plan B, and a pre-planned one.
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Hmm, agreed. But if it might not work (which might have been an issue here, compounding the problems) ... then you need a plan B, and a pre-planned one. 3rd Jun 2011 15:36
The plan B is for sure part of the preflight planning and flight operation, with I guess restrictions and ops info from Dassault, for such ferry flight.
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Ferry Flight
A detailed review of the computer's non-volatile memory data, along with extensive simulation sessions, confirmed the sequence of events and has provided additional information.
During the entire event, the Flight Control laws operated normally. An "FCS: TRIM LIMIT" CAS message was triggered before the aircraft started to pitch up. The Flight Control short term protection functions remained inoperative in the first phase of the event. The pitch trim motor was eventually disconnected by the medium term protection functions, wich allowed the aircraft to recover normal behavior.
The pitch up movement caused by the trim runaway resulted in a load factor greater than 2,5g for 5 seconds with a peak of 4,5g, without exceeding aircraft structural limits. The aircraft structure has been inspected and no evidence of physical damage was visible.
The investigation to determine the origin of the pitch trim runaway and the non-operation of the short term protection functions continues.
There is an approved Flight Condition Approval Sheet (FCAS) which provides the flight procedure and limitations to perform a ferry flight.
This sheet notes that "flight crews shall agree for the most appropriate cockpit call-out to be triggered by the PNF in case a Pitch Trim Runaway is detected (e.g. "TRIM")
The following limitations apply for the ferry flight:
- MTOW ≤ 60.000lbs.
- CG ≤ 31% MAC during all flight
- Climb/Descent speed schedule: 240kt / M0.70
- Cruise speed and altitude schedule
* Use Long Range Cruise Performance information except if beyond the following limits: *
Airplane Gross weight: GW ≥ 50.000lbs
Max IAS 240 kt.
Max MACH 0.70
Max Pressure Altitude 33.000 ft
Airplane Gross weight: GW ≤ 50.000lbs
Max IAS 260 kt.
Max MACH 0.70
Max Pressure Altitude 37.000 ft
During the entire event, the Flight Control laws operated normally. An "FCS: TRIM LIMIT" CAS message was triggered before the aircraft started to pitch up. The Flight Control short term protection functions remained inoperative in the first phase of the event. The pitch trim motor was eventually disconnected by the medium term protection functions, wich allowed the aircraft to recover normal behavior.
The pitch up movement caused by the trim runaway resulted in a load factor greater than 2,5g for 5 seconds with a peak of 4,5g, without exceeding aircraft structural limits. The aircraft structure has been inspected and no evidence of physical damage was visible.
The investigation to determine the origin of the pitch trim runaway and the non-operation of the short term protection functions continues.
There is an approved Flight Condition Approval Sheet (FCAS) which provides the flight procedure and limitations to perform a ferry flight.
This sheet notes that "flight crews shall agree for the most appropriate cockpit call-out to be triggered by the PNF in case a Pitch Trim Runaway is detected (e.g. "TRIM")
The following limitations apply for the ferry flight:
- MTOW ≤ 60.000lbs.
- CG ≤ 31% MAC during all flight
- Climb/Descent speed schedule: 240kt / M0.70
- Cruise speed and altitude schedule
* Use Long Range Cruise Performance information except if beyond the following limits: *
Airplane Gross weight: GW ≥ 50.000lbs
Max IAS 240 kt.
Max MACH 0.70
Max Pressure Altitude 33.000 ft
Airplane Gross weight: GW ≤ 50.000lbs
Max IAS 260 kt.
Max MACH 0.70
Max Pressure Altitude 37.000 ft
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All this sounds like over-reaction to me. Other aircraft had trim runaways before, and as far as I know, it never led to the grounding of a whole fleet.
I wonder if the release of the AF 447 preliminary report has anything to do with it !?!
I wonder if the release of the AF 447 preliminary report has anything to do with it !?!
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I'm not a falcon 7x guy, but all of the aircraft I've flown have been equipped to stop runaway pitch trim. I don't believe you can manually stop a 7X trim runaway as this crew experienced, you need to wait for the computer "laws" to kick in and recognize the problem.
This is a huge problem in my book. Do you falcon lovers really like flying something you can't control? Perhaps you can explain to the group what the pilots should have done to control and prevent the 11,000Ft altitude excursion. Food for thought, IF the computer had commanded down rather than up, their might be a smoking hole outside of Simpang.
... And please use FACTS to explain what should have been done rather than "boo-hoo you guys hate us, it was only once, we love our falcon" we have been forced to read to justify and defend this incident.
I would have done my own research, but Dassault is so insecure they forced Smart Cockpit to remove systems materials from their site as well.
Now to be fair, I still want the ASC to install cables on ALL the flight controls of my 650 that's on order!
FR
This is a huge problem in my book. Do you falcon lovers really like flying something you can't control? Perhaps you can explain to the group what the pilots should have done to control and prevent the 11,000Ft altitude excursion. Food for thought, IF the computer had commanded down rather than up, their might be a smoking hole outside of Simpang.
... And please use FACTS to explain what should have been done rather than "boo-hoo you guys hate us, it was only once, we love our falcon" we have been forced to read to justify and defend this incident.
I would have done my own research, but Dassault is so insecure they forced Smart Cockpit to remove systems materials from their site as well.
Now to be fair, I still want the ASC to install cables on ALL the flight controls of my 650 that's on order!
FR
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Well, your few post on this thread definitely sound like childish falcon hate
Yes, I sure that they will build the 650 with pulleys and cables because you tell them so
Back to serious posts.
Question for the Falcon 7x pilots
What happens if during a trim runaway,or any trim automatic movements, you move the manual trim switches the opposite way?
Would that stop the trim?
Thanks
Yes, I sure that they will build the 650 with pulleys and cables because you tell them so
Back to serious posts.
Question for the Falcon 7x pilots
What happens if during a trim runaway,or any trim automatic movements, you move the manual trim switches the opposite way?
Would that stop the trim?
Thanks
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Question for the Falcon 7x pilots
What happens if during a trim runaway,or any trim automatic movements, you move the manual trim switches the opposite way?
Would that stop the trim?
What happens if during a trim runaway,or any trim automatic movements, you move the manual trim switches the opposite way?
Would that stop the trim?
the back-up mode is engaged when both channel 3 or the HSTC 3 module (horizontal stabilizer control) and channel 4 or the HSTC 4 module have failed.
Once this channel is activated it will maintain direct and dedicated control of the HSTA.
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As I wrote before, there is no method by which you can trim the 7x in normal condition (law).
Only when the fly by wire computers decide that they don't know anymore will it let you use the manual pitch trim.
This is the situation the crew encountered, the fly by wire system was "happy" so no manual trim available.
(just to be completely clear, there is no trim wheel and the manual trim switches do not function in normal law, nor is there a way to override the auto trim in normal law).
GC
Only when the fly by wire computers decide that they don't know anymore will it let you use the manual pitch trim.
This is the situation the crew encountered, the fly by wire system was "happy" so no manual trim available.
(just to be completely clear, there is no trim wheel and the manual trim switches do not function in normal law, nor is there a way to override the auto trim in normal law).
GC