Gulfstream G650 Crash - Roswell - 4 Dead
FAA confirms Gulfstream G650 Roswell test accident
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2. Roswell isn't really "high" - it's just under 4000ft. Which makes it a very useful place to test for 'normal' field performance, since you can extrapolate the results there to 10kft, which is a typical max TO altitude unless you do dedicated tests at La Paz or similar.
Its also useful for performance purposes due to the nature of the runway and the amount of local activity. Throw in typical decent weather and its no surprise many OEMs use Roswell for performance testing.
3. I'm not surprised Gulfstream have locked themselves down; with NTSb involved, anything that gets out might be deemed to have been "released" and NTSB jealously (and properly) protect their right to approve (or not) any data released regarding an accident under investigation.
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T2 was my plane when I was a Gulfstream flight test (end of gig on 2010-12-31) ... Rolls-Royce BR725 engine "owner'. I will know all four on-board. DAMN!
Would there be additional Flight Data Recording going on during this phase of testing?
Just might give a clue as to what in the world happened.
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I know several of the Gulfstream test pilots, and am deeply saddened by this news. I'm dreading the release of the crew manifest.
They would have been recording a huge amount of flight test data, but the recorders almost certainly don't have any specific fire protection. So it may take a lot of work to retrieve any of the flight test data. Depending on what type of test they were doing, they might have been transmitting telemetry, which would normally include quite a bit of data, but not as much as would be recorded on the flight test recorders.
Would there be additional Flight Data Recording going on during this phase of testing?
Just might give a clue as to what in the world happened.
Just might give a clue as to what in the world happened.
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Curious what brought it down.
V1 cuts and single engine departures are pretty straight forward.
I know they were trying to hire some flight test guys...new guys at the wheel?
V1 cuts and single engine departures are pretty straight forward.
I know they were trying to hire some flight test guys...new guys at the wheel?
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Local press are reporting gear collapse, sliding and hitting a 'structure' and bursting into flames, ended up right beside the control tower.
AvWeb reporting aircraft was taking off, became briefly airbourne - came back down hard - collapsing the gear . . .
Gulfstream 650 Down, Four Dead
Local News Coverage
N652GD Gulfstream G650 airframe number 2.
Gulfstream Press Release
photo Ned Harris/Flickr
AvWeb reporting aircraft was taking off, became briefly airbourne - came back down hard - collapsing the gear . . .
Gulfstream 650 Down, Four Dead
Local News Coverage
N652GD Gulfstream G650 airframe number 2.
Gulfstream Press Release
photo Ned Harris/Flickr
Last edited by bizjets101; 3rd Apr 2011 at 01:50. Reason: added another link . . .
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http://http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/...tal_crash.html
a few more details in this article. eye witness says a wing tip struck the ground first.
a few more details in this article. eye witness says a wing tip struck the ground first.
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Pugilistic Animus
".......these clients do expect quite simply 100% safety......"
Then the clients are deluded, as this tragedy has illustrated. While mankind has his sticky little fingers anywhere near machinery, there will never be 1000% safety.
".......these clients do expect quite simply 100% safety......"
Then the clients are deluded, as this tragedy has illustrated. While mankind has his sticky little fingers anywhere near machinery, there will never be 1000% safety.
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sad news indeed. Thoughts and prayers go out to the family's and colleagues.
Flt test guys have to be respected for pushing these machines past there limits so that us regular guys can operate within a safe operating margin.
I wouldn't expect the 650 image to suffer in the long term. After a period of grieving, the sales and marketing machine will be in full swing.
They will communicate the risks of certification testing and just how far these a/c are pushed, therefore achieving a safe product backed by a history of excellence.
This doesn't in anyway take the shine off what is truly an awesome airplane.
Flt test guys have to be respected for pushing these machines past there limits so that us regular guys can operate within a safe operating margin.
I wouldn't expect the 650 image to suffer in the long term. After a period of grieving, the sales and marketing machine will be in full swing.
They will communicate the risks of certification testing and just how far these a/c are pushed, therefore achieving a safe product backed by a history of excellence.
This doesn't in anyway take the shine off what is truly an awesome airplane.
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G650 airplane under test
This is a truly tragic accident, as all crashes that involve loss of life are.
After reading the thread it surprise me that some professional pilots seem to forget the inherent risks in developing new airframes. While technology has come along way since steam gauges and radial engines, and computer modeling reduces many risks in build, the fact remains that testing, building new aircraft has it's risks.
For any of us side liners who operate these aircraft on a regular basis, who think we understand the development process and engineering that goes into to this is just full of himself.
No doubt they will find what happened. There were more perameters being measured on that aircraft then normal. Gulfstream isn't playing damage control with the public or the NTSB or the FAA. Everyone in these groups (NTSB and FAA) were aware of the testing and have access to record, and info will be exchanged properly.
For those spinning this up, your a disgrace to our profession, you could barely fold a paper airplane for you kids to play with, let alone make any reasonable judgement of a new aircraft under test in what went wrong.
The world is watching and they will surely have answers to the question "why" in the near future
My condolences to all involved and to our profession on this sad day. It reminds me, and should be a reminder to all of us, that no matter how far technology comes, there are still inherent risks to flying airplanes, and our profession.
After reading the thread it surprise me that some professional pilots seem to forget the inherent risks in developing new airframes. While technology has come along way since steam gauges and radial engines, and computer modeling reduces many risks in build, the fact remains that testing, building new aircraft has it's risks.
For any of us side liners who operate these aircraft on a regular basis, who think we understand the development process and engineering that goes into to this is just full of himself.
No doubt they will find what happened. There were more perameters being measured on that aircraft then normal. Gulfstream isn't playing damage control with the public or the NTSB or the FAA. Everyone in these groups (NTSB and FAA) were aware of the testing and have access to record, and info will be exchanged properly.
For those spinning this up, your a disgrace to our profession, you could barely fold a paper airplane for you kids to play with, let alone make any reasonable judgement of a new aircraft under test in what went wrong.
The world is watching and they will surely have answers to the question "why" in the near future
My condolences to all involved and to our profession on this sad day. It reminds me, and should be a reminder to all of us, that no matter how far technology comes, there are still inherent risks to flying airplanes, and our profession.
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fit_level, are you not jumping the gun somewhat in assuming the cause of the accident was 'type specific'. It is possible the aircraft was within test tolerance and a non related event/occurence is responsible.
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After reading the thread it surprise me that some professional pilots seem to forget the inherent risks in developing new airframes. While technology has come along way since steam gauges and radial engines, and computer modeling reduces many risks in build, the fact remains that testing, building new aircraft has it's risks.
2 pilots perished at Wichita.
ASN Aircraft accident Canadair CL-600-2B16 Challenger 604 C-FTBZ Wichita-Mid-Continent Airport, KS (ICT)
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Steveb15
This may be true about the 604 program, but this is the purpose behind flight testing, to discover problems associated to design.
The 604 may have been set back, but the set backs are obstacle to get over in the certification program. Today the 604 has developed to the 605 and a number or Regional Jets developed from the some of the data I suspect.
Gulfstream will continue to move forward, as cautious as they entered the process, but with a reminder that the business they are in is subject to failure and is sometimes life threatening. not the first and sure not to be the last.
I have done multiple hours of take off and landing training in similar Gulfstreams G450 and G550 and must say several hours of this is tiring. Either way aircraft malfunction or pilot error, it's tragic.
When these things happen it touches a spot in my soul knowing that it could be anyone of us who this happened to if you are active in the profession.
They (Gulfstream ) has been at this game for decades and now with more brain trust with General Dynamics absorbing them. They will continue to make the finest corporate aircraft of it's size in the skies, no question in my mind.
The G650 will get certified and become yet another milestone for Gulfstream but not without trials, failures, and now loss of life
The nature of the beast, sad but true.
This may be true about the 604 program, but this is the purpose behind flight testing, to discover problems associated to design.
The 604 may have been set back, but the set backs are obstacle to get over in the certification program. Today the 604 has developed to the 605 and a number or Regional Jets developed from the some of the data I suspect.
Gulfstream will continue to move forward, as cautious as they entered the process, but with a reminder that the business they are in is subject to failure and is sometimes life threatening. not the first and sure not to be the last.
I have done multiple hours of take off and landing training in similar Gulfstreams G450 and G550 and must say several hours of this is tiring. Either way aircraft malfunction or pilot error, it's tragic.
When these things happen it touches a spot in my soul knowing that it could be anyone of us who this happened to if you are active in the profession.
They (Gulfstream ) has been at this game for decades and now with more brain trust with General Dynamics absorbing them. They will continue to make the finest corporate aircraft of it's size in the skies, no question in my mind.
The G650 will get certified and become yet another milestone for Gulfstream but not without trials, failures, and now loss of life
The nature of the beast, sad but true.
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Very sad to hear this news today. RIP folks.
With a relatively clean slate in terms of non-human error hull losses, Gulfstream seem to have been putting out a statistically very safe line of aircraft.
One has to wonder if the addition of Fly By Wire into the 650, might not hold a clue to what went wrong here. In general the entire range is pretty docile throughout the flight entire flight regime - this sounds like something to do with controlability, or uncommanded flight control input. In my mind, the company has pretty much just improved on its existing line and design philosophy with each new type - this is the first model that has strayed from Gulfstream's mainstay of mechanical controls and direct pilot input. Airbus also struggled in the beginning with the A320. Hope this is not the case with the 650.
With a relatively clean slate in terms of non-human error hull losses, Gulfstream seem to have been putting out a statistically very safe line of aircraft.
One has to wonder if the addition of Fly By Wire into the 650, might not hold a clue to what went wrong here. In general the entire range is pretty docile throughout the flight entire flight regime - this sounds like something to do with controlability, or uncommanded flight control input. In my mind, the company has pretty much just improved on its existing line and design philosophy with each new type - this is the first model that has strayed from Gulfstream's mainstay of mechanical controls and direct pilot input. Airbus also struggled in the beginning with the A320. Hope this is not the case with the 650.
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Very sad news.
What is the 'red window' in the photo above?
I wonder what the risk assesment for this testing concluded.
NTSB recommended risk assesments for flight testing after that Canadair accident a few years back.
Any owner who expects 100% safety needs to back that expectation with $$$. They need to pick a modern aircraft, invest in IS-BAO SMS accreditation, intensive crew training, and be prepared to cancel higher risk flights.
What is the 'red window' in the photo above?
I wonder what the risk assesment for this testing concluded.
NTSB recommended risk assesments for flight testing after that Canadair accident a few years back.
Any owner who expects 100% safety needs to back that expectation with $$$. They need to pick a modern aircraft, invest in IS-BAO SMS accreditation, intensive crew training, and be prepared to cancel higher risk flights.
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No attempt to diagnose
The sweep of the wings, make for an interesting cross wind situation, when landing or taking off.
Jusat ask any Citation Ten driver, how much latitude there is for wing tip clearance under normal, and abnorrmal operations.
Jusat ask any Citation Ten driver, how much latitude there is for wing tip clearance under normal, and abnorrmal operations.
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shell mgmt
Thinking more ABNORMAL......
trying to say that under normal circumstances, there is very little room for error, and we do not know the flight profile, it was a flight test aircraft, so is expected to be at the cutting edge most of the time...
trying to say that under normal circumstances, there is very little room for error, and we do not know the flight profile, it was a flight test aircraft, so is expected to be at the cutting edge most of the time...
