From Airline to Corporate World

[mabele]

As one who has been flying in the airline enigma, I would be most appreciative if anyone could throw some advice my way about flying in the private jet world.

What are the major hurdles I would face?

What new mindsets would I have to adopt?

What would you recommend studying up on?

Any advice or information would be most helpful.

Cheers

[johns7022]

The airline guys I knew that had problems transitioning to corporate had issues in these areas...

- Buying fuel, maintenance, restocking, flight plans, cleaning the plane...all that stuff you have to do...and when your plane goes in for inspection you don't just drop it off and walk away.

- Trying to be the hero...not used to a corporate mission oriented vs show up and fly type of thing...some of these guys seem to think that if they take off 2000 lbs over gross, fly on fumes to save money ect...they might get brownie points...no they will get killed...

- No set schedule, smaller more uncomfortable planes...no help, no benefits, flying with copilots that don't have the training they do, always complaining about that...

Lastly is flying skills....no SOPs manuals, no dispatch to call when you have a problem...if it's 100 indef....you can take a look, the boss doesn't want to go to an alternate...no more standard rate turns and F16 climbs....you gotta smooth things out....

If I was to target the two main pitfalls....is your doing it all, and you better save money doing it...and your doing it all, and you better fly like you have the guy signing your paycheck in the back.

Good Luck.

[Pilocol]

Airline to GA

Although most of what johns7022 is true, don’t get discouraged, the hours are long, you have to do it all and some times you have to deal with a bunch of Idiots …
The operation that I run HAS SOPs, HAS rules and we keep a very high safety standard. The boss is used to hear NO for an answer, I will not risk my, his or my crews lives in order to please him.
We have diverted several time, due to weather (and one time because he was late and they close the airport on us), so it is not cowboy country always …
The fun part is that you get to go different places most of the time and if you land a nice boss you will have a good time.
As a fact, most GA bosses like ex-airliners; they bring some good tings, others are spoil brads that you just want to kick out of the plane (during flight), prima-donnas that think that the rest of the people are there for their benefit.
So, if you are willing to get down and dirty, welcome to the corporate world, if you have a chip on the shoulder because you have 4 bars on it, stay in the airline …
This is cool, but it takes more effort than it looks like in order to make it safe without the help of all the departments that assist and help in the airline world.

Take care and keep it safe.

[galaxy flyer]

My operation has 33 pilots at two locations, a mix of everything--ex-mil heavy transports, fighters, civil airline only, both regional and major, former corporate--that work out fine. At least one guy came direct from fighters, some had airline time. The list of planes is C-5, C-130, A-10, F-18, T-37, CE-500, B757, B727, B767, A320, CRJ, some grew within the department from small planes. It all depends on an good work ethic, willingness to learn, not being afraid to ask questions and learn from the answers.

The one piece advice I have is interview them just as they interview you. As opposed to airlines, you will live the department, spend a lot of time with the guys on the other side of the table; it is very much like a AF flying squadron. If someone's son goes to hospital, you might be called to fill-in and you might benefit when your's goes to the hospital or you need a favor. If everyone plays golf and you don't--be careful. You might spend 6 days staying with one guy, breakfast, lunch and dinner. It is more like marriage than airline flying. A 2 or 3 pilot, single plane operation would scare or bore me, personal opinion.

Ask if they have a Flight Operations Manual with detailed SOPs, are they IS-BAO certified or seeking it, what is there training program, are all pilots fully type rated or are new guys SIC-qual'd (US only) and, if international, do they have a regular handling service provider? If there are a lot of "no" answers I'd submit, they are not a first rank operation. First rank flight departments are just as safety-oriented and organized as any airline.

GF

[climblevel410]

I am flying in the GA since years, sorry to say but I guess my aircraft is more comfortable than the airliners... we have 2 CAs for only 10 people, best food like a flying 3 star restaurant...

And I have my SOPs

And I get sim training twice a year

And i am a copilot

Even if I am flying in a very small company with only 4 ACs.

I guess its just a type of attitude thing if you should fly Line or Business. I am the business guy, and I love it!

THX

[Gulfstreamaviator]

I agree with Time Traveller

SOP and Corporate Ops are always at loggerheads to each other.

TT, is totally right, the boss is the key, and if the bos said jump, we reply how high.

We all hope that our boss has a sense of responsability, and safety, and trusts us to be as concerned for our safety as to him and his family.

Working in different cultures generates a different concept of safety management. or should that be risk management.

The worst corporate captain is the ex airline old school. nuff said.


glf

[johns7022]

I thought I would add that flying a plane is flying a plane...everyone can try to hash out the best way to do it....but in corporate the guy in the back is going to decide if your getting it done or not....no union protection, no seniority, no grievance process, no personal days where you stay home,with a thousand other guys to jump in when your 'not feeling well'. He can call you in and can you just like that and without real cause. You have zero job security, especially if you don't know what your doing.

And that leads to a conversation about why some flight departments last 40 years some last 2. Another thread.

I know for sure that some small organizations, a relationship with just you and boss, leads to some guys running back to fractionals, large charter departments, and airlines...tired not only of being somewhat alone, without any structure or support, but also tired of always trying to figure out if the boss is 'happy'...because your job depends on that...it's a real downfall of corporate aviation.

Some guys have more of a military mindset, a team orientation, and always defer to 'getting help' from the captain, sic, the boss, the aviation dept manager, chief pilot...and deferring so much of their jobs away, that they can't or wont make a decision anymore...which conflicts with what boss wants you to do...I know guys that went back to SIC tired of dealing with mechanics, being the guy the boss calls on a Saturday night, getting asked some random question about the flight dept..

Seriously, anyone going corporate needs to decide if they are type of guy that needs those meetings and memos detailing where the new coffee cups need to be stored, they need the help, they like the structure of a SOPs manual taking away and independent decision process, so they are off the hook...or they want to be independent and take the consequences of a good or bad call.

[JB007]

...no union protection...no seniority...

Music to my ears...and just to add:

...no more corporate b*ll**** and politics from 'feathering own nest' airline management, complete ownership of your aircraft, to be an ambassador of your organisation and being proud of what you do again!

Give me my first Jeppesen update, personally, I can't wait to start 'mucking' in!

Cheers
JB

[epsum]

After my initial airline (regional turboprop) owners closed ir down, I have flewn a year and a half in corporate business. I'm quite happy about it. We got 4 a/c and 14 pilots, and some, who are came over from regular airlines complaining a lot.

Already some good points pointed out - but I like to add some more.
- actual flying of aircraft - in our FOM we are encouraged handflying, so traffic permitting we usually fly up to F265 by hand. If you want (and capt and/or f/o are also happy about it), you can fly by hand and raw data from TOD.
- Flying is only part of our job - from toilet servicing, catering orders, last minute changes , etc - all lies the hands of flight crew.
- Airports, I counted and got 65 different airports, which I have been in previous 18 months.
- Our owners are very careful about question of captains authority - If crew is not happy to land on destination (weather/ops/security whatsoever reasons), if you explain , they will listen and you can land wherever convinient for you and pax. Same happens in our charter side - nobody will accuse or fire you if you dont want to fly in Groznyy, Chechenya or Iraq/Afganishtan.
- Pay. Better than in regular airliner but you need to do a lot more for that also.
- FOs arent guys who pay for it, but are accounted as valuable crew members.

Negative sides:
A lot of time in downroute. Worst case cenario - 15 days in a row in Africa or 10 days in Russia are not so rare.

Hence we got 10/5 roster, and there usually is not convinient way to our base, it constantly moves +- some days. If there is a lot of flying, I minimally had been in home and free of duties 5 days in a month, usually got 10 days off + 5-10 office days.

Also to consider,

Duty periods. It is not accepted easily if you depart without your passengers. Be it their mistake and their delay. You cannot depart without them. So, 13+2 hour duty periods exist. And if you are not happy to go and really tired and weather in destination is c***p, you can leave the flight to next day. No punishment will follow.

Personality is IMPORTANT. You live with your flight crew. Occasionally I are together my wife and kid less than I spend my time with captain.

Despite your experience, you must dare to say, if you see some red herring or want change something. Complaining and accusing the owner or management or chief pilot does not help much - find a solution and present it - then everybody are happy.
Even the utmost junior FO can change FOM( not SOPs, because we use manufacturer ones), if he / she can explain the need of change.

Business aviation is not everybody's cup of tea. But I like it and dont plan to move in airliners. But as our experience seems to show - around 50-60% of pilots who move from airlines to business are succesful and happy..

Also, sorry for my english

[Trim Stab]

1. The flying is great - we do every approach visually if possible, fly by hand almost always except in cruise.

2. We have to take responsibility for everything - no relying on "ops" to do all the work. We even do our own flight plans.

2. The Ts & Cs are terrible.

[NuName]

SOP's are of major importance, if they are incororated into each recurrent they become the norm, the leading FTO's are happy to do this. But it must be said, they are pimarily designed to standardise multi crew operations, there are many operations that have only one crew and these will tend to modify their SOP's to suit themselves. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion as long as the result is a safe and amicable operating environment. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

[cabinready]

Remember being a corporate pilot is akin to working in any other service industry, much more than airline flying. You see the boss nearly everyday, often the flight deck door is open. If things go pear shaped with regard to delays and technical issues you cant hide behind 30 ops guys/ the flightdeck door and your PA, you have to speak to the passengers face to face.

Doesnt matter about the background of the pilot. What is important IS the pilot and his mindset etc etc.

[Gulfcapt]

"What are the major hurdles I would face?"

Coming to grips with the fact that everything is your job.

"What new mindsets would I have to adopt?"

That everything is my job.

Seriously though, there's some great advice in the previous posts.

I've worked with a few who have made the switch. The best ones were corporate pilots before they were airline pilots. Not to say you couldn't be the exception to what I have experienced, but how successful you are with the transition is all about you and your attitude. Good luck!

Best,
GC

[inner]

I think it is also important to know that there are a lot of different corporate companies. The bigger ones do have a own operations where they organise everything for you, the smaller don't.

If you really want to shift to the corporate industry, check first if you have a roster, ask potential collegues what they like/dislike in the company, what's the salary, is commuting possible, do you want to fly with a private jet with AOC or without AOC etc.

Like i said before, there are a lot of corporates out there so are the options. So it is up to you to check all the differences and find one that suits you.

Good luck with your move.

[mabele]

Fantastic information!

I really appreciate all the advice...

I think one of the biggest hurdles would be changing the airline mindset, from being so protected behind different forms of hierarchy and SOP's and the general fare paying pax simply being told what to do.

Now its you working with either an individual, who may or may not care about the legalities of a situation, or an operator who is of course looking after their client, and you the pilot figuring out how it can be done.

I imagine PR skills are a must.

If i decide on a course of action today, Im protected by my company, who will turn around and say to the pax that it was all in their (the pax)best interests, Ill be shielded from any unnecessary anger. Now in the corporate world Ill have to really sell my decisions to the big man (or woman) in the back.

Do they understand, that just cause they want to get somewhere ( and they are most likely the type who are used to getting what they want) now they cant do it because of say Duty time, or something else which may seem arbitrary to them but we know as pilots will get us in hot water?

What about duty time, how respected is that?

Thank you all for your wonderful feedback.

Cheers

[dirk85]

What about duty time, how respected is that?

They are respected, on the paper. In the real world... cough...cough...

[redsnail]

It does depend on who you are working for. A purely private operation you may find some pressure wrt duty times. A large operator with a good flight ops department, well, you might be asked if you could use discretion.

I once had an owner angry and upset at us not being able to depart (fog). I just repeated "safety" and was polite to him. He was more frustrated with the system than any thing else. I simply said I was not willing to risk his life and his family's for the sake of a departure. It eventually got through but it does take some diplomacy there.

A few owners are not used to being told "no". You do need to be absolutely certain that it is not feasible. Another thing is to have alternate plan/destinations ready to be able to offer the owner a choice. Then it becomes his/her decision and thus they maintain some control over their lives.
That makes bad news a bit more palatable.

[B200Drvr]

The lack of SOP's and the adherence to them is not a general corporate flying issue, every company I have worked for so far, including contract companies have had SOP's and have expected their pilots to adhere to them word perfect.
This is a reflection of the type of people you fly with, not the industry you fly in.
Most airline pilots I've flown with that have made the switch, just need time to adapt to a different way of flying, thinking, preparing and operating.
Airline pilots that I've interviewed, often seem to think it is a step down to corporate, they must remember that they have very little to offer a corporate operation, as they have no corporate experience. Don't think you will go to a corporate operation and change everything to the way you "used" to work. You will find yourself in a very lonely place.
Go in and be part of the team, listen, learn and add your suggestions. Don't be offended if you get shot down, it's just a different type of flying.

PS. With regard to Flight and Duty, again, it is a reflection of the operation, not the industry!!!

[733driver]

Not sure I agree completely. Have you worked for a respected, established airline before? I have and I have flown with lot's of pilots from various general aviation backgrounds as well as ex military and ex airline pilots in my present job (GA). I agree one must adapt to the new environment when coming from an airine to GA. But, GA can also learn an awful lot from airline guys. Just because there are SOPs does not mean that they are solid and well thought through. It is my experience that a good airline will have better SOPs and better training than most GA outfits, even the big ones.

[cabinready]

Most GA operators have SOPs which are based on Flightsafety SOPs or similar. Dont know if airlines have "better" SOPs- can SOPs be categorised as such anyway? Most airlines anyway take Mr Boeings SOPs and amend them to suit their own operation, therefore SOPs differ from airline to airline according to the training dept.

True that corporate guys can learn alot from airline guys, as airline guys can learn alot from corporate guys, who can learn alot from the engineering guys. People should never stop learning no matter how you categorise them.