DC 3 down near Berlin
Bring back the Dak!
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Hmmmmm...........Many, many hours spent flying 'PZ with Intra Airways in the 70's. Procedures prior to the 1st flight of the day tested amongst other things prop-control and the electric feathering pump. Subsequent flights didn't, or maybe a mechanical pitch-control check if the pilot so wished. Mags we always checked before each flight.
When an engine failure occurred with the luxury of speed and altitude, the procedure was identify, throttle closed, button pressed, pitch fully coarse, mixture idle cut-off. Thus the electric pump only had to "finish off" the feathering of an already mechanically-coarsening prop.
However, the procedure with an engine failure IMMEDIATELY after take-off was identify, button pressed, mixture idle cut-off, leaving the crew to counter the swing, fly the aeroplane, get the gear up, and climb away. In this case the electric pump has to do ALL the work of changing the prop from fine to fully-feathered. IMHO this aircraft would have had no trouble climbing away with the stated load and a feathered prop, and no chance of sustaining flight with a windmilling prop in fine (takeoff) pitch on the dead engine. IF indeed the crew followed the above procedure, the position of No1 prop's pitch in the photograph would seem to point to a possible complete failure of No1 electric feathering pump.
I doubt the crew would have had the time or capacity to try the first procedure after realising that the second had not worked, and anyway it still would have resulted in a partially-feathered prop, and a whole load of drag.
Just my pennyworth................tough old bird, sad to see her like this.
When an engine failure occurred with the luxury of speed and altitude, the procedure was identify, throttle closed, button pressed, pitch fully coarse, mixture idle cut-off. Thus the electric pump only had to "finish off" the feathering of an already mechanically-coarsening prop.
However, the procedure with an engine failure IMMEDIATELY after take-off was identify, button pressed, mixture idle cut-off, leaving the crew to counter the swing, fly the aeroplane, get the gear up, and climb away. In this case the electric pump has to do ALL the work of changing the prop from fine to fully-feathered. IMHO this aircraft would have had no trouble climbing away with the stated load and a feathered prop, and no chance of sustaining flight with a windmilling prop in fine (takeoff) pitch on the dead engine. IF indeed the crew followed the above procedure, the position of No1 prop's pitch in the photograph would seem to point to a possible complete failure of No1 electric feathering pump.
I doubt the crew would have had the time or capacity to try the first procedure after realising that the second had not worked, and anyway it still would have resulted in a partially-feathered prop, and a whole load of drag.
Just my pennyworth................tough old bird, sad to see her like this.
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411A
"Spring lock is fine, except, it is not then firmly locked down."
Incorrect. Spring lock down has the "yale" tongue engaged exactly the same as positive down lock.
stevef is also correct on the hydraulic component (hydraulic lock maintains up).
411A you do not know the DC3, I do. I also solved the single circuit down lock indication problem immediately on being exposed to it(during my DC3 type rating course in 1961). I proved my solution as soon as I flew it. NZNAC had been operating DC3 for about 15 years but had not solved the problem previously. The solution is trivially simple.
"Spring lock is fine, except, it is not then firmly locked down."
Incorrect. Spring lock down has the "yale" tongue engaged exactly the same as positive down lock.
stevef is also correct on the hydraulic component (hydraulic lock maintains up).
411A you do not know the DC3, I do. I also solved the single circuit down lock indication problem immediately on being exposed to it(during my DC3 type rating course in 1961). I proved my solution as soon as I flew it. NZNAC had been operating DC3 for about 15 years but had not solved the problem previously. The solution is trivially simple.
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Nostalgia ain't what it used to be...
Remember that big old starter motor up in the wheelwell that drove the unfeathering pump? It was from some sort of ancient automobile, I was told, a Buick or something.
We had a veteran DC-3 pilot in Miami lose one right at lift-off when the best he could manage was to pancake it right back onto terra firma half out of control, writing the aircraft off but walking away. Okay, perhaps he didn't do his whole 12-Point Program correctly but it might have been a case of running out of airspeed, altitude and ideas all at the same time, the sort to thing that can happen to almost anyone, really.
I flew one as an FO with a Navy veteran, a nicotine and caffeine fiend who could make that old bird sit up and talk. To watch him do a X-wind landing was quite something, when I was just left with the straight-and-level and a bit of talk-talk as my contribution to the group effort, with which I was cool, having already booked an Africa extended holiday, far from the Colombian Mafia.
Lots of folks nowadays forget the standards the old DC-3 was certified to, nothing like FAR-25.
We had a veteran DC-3 pilot in Miami lose one right at lift-off when the best he could manage was to pancake it right back onto terra firma half out of control, writing the aircraft off but walking away. Okay, perhaps he didn't do his whole 12-Point Program correctly but it might have been a case of running out of airspeed, altitude and ideas all at the same time, the sort to thing that can happen to almost anyone, really.
I flew one as an FO with a Navy veteran, a nicotine and caffeine fiend who could make that old bird sit up and talk. To watch him do a X-wind landing was quite something, when I was just left with the straight-and-level and a bit of talk-talk as my contribution to the group effort, with which I was cool, having already booked an Africa extended holiday, far from the Colombian Mafia.
Lots of folks nowadays forget the standards the old DC-3 was certified to, nothing like FAR-25.
alert! OK, just for the record (but I'll skip some of the dates) it is a DC-3 series C-47B-30-DK. First flew as 44-76540 (US Army Air Force) in March 1945. Almost immediately to the RAF as KN442 (1945-1952). Purchased and operated by STARWAYS as G-AMPZ, after which it flew with a handful of operators: TRANSAIR, WEST AFRICAN AIRWAYS (on lease), BRITISH UNITED AIRWAYS, SILVER CITY AIRWAYS, FLUGSYN (as TF-AIV), NORFOLK AIRWAYS, AIR ANGLIA, CLYDEN AIRWAYS (as EI-BDT), HARVESTAIR, JANES AVIATION, AIR ATLANTIQUE/ATLANTIC AIR TRANSPORT, and finally AIR SERVICE BERLIN.
There were a few other private owners and short leases here and there. The a/c has quite a history and it would be interesting to know how many hours it has under its belt.
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#44 - wasn't that the cause of the Dutch Dakota Association's accident in 1996?
Dakotaramp - Wikipedia (in Dutch)
Dakotaramp - Wikipedia (in Dutch)
Pictures of the actual crash sequence
Bruchlandung - Rosinenbomber verunglückt - Berlin Aktuell - Berliner Morgenpost
Bruchlandung - Rosinenbomber verunglückt - Berlin Aktuell - Berliner Morgenpost
Last edited by krohmie; 20th Jun 2010 at 14:11.
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I have witnessed a Dakota aerial top dresser fully loaded have an engine failure (port from memory) just as it cleared wheels and still take off and fly. Dumped the fertiliser down the remainder of the strip and cleared the boundary fence by about a 1m. Slow rising ground beyond the runway for about 3km resulted in the plane barely gaining any altitude but slowly it clawed it's way skyward and returned for a safe landing. I was running the airfield perimeter road when this all happened about 100m in front of me.
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Wasn't there, so couldn't get "the feel", but I wonder if the guys shouldn't have tried to gain a little more altitude before making the turn back? You can get fixated on getting back pronto instead of flying the aeroplane. But, as I say, I wasn't there and maybe they just didn't have that option. At least they all got out and that's the main thing.
The right engine is working, the left engine is standing (or windmilling). Without Exif Data (Exposure time) we have no information about the rpm.
But question on my mind:
Why did he turn towards the dead engine?
Terrain?
Below blue line speed and to much power on the working donk?
Edit: Answer from another forum: --> Terrain and the PF on the left side had a better sight of the landing area.
But question on my mind:
Why did he turn towards the dead engine?
Terrain?
Below blue line speed and to much power on the working donk?
Edit: Answer from another forum: --> Terrain and the PF on the left side had a better sight of the landing area.
Last edited by krohmie; 20th Jun 2010 at 21:07.
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So sorry to hear of the demise of Papa Zulu,though glad all got out ok.
I started my avaition career with Air Anglia at ABZ in 1973 ,then we had the oldest Dak on the Uk register G-AGJV along with G-AOBN.
G-AMPZ used to visit if one of our base aircraft went tech.
I me her again whilst based in Shetland with Dai Air,old capt Joe Retchka flew in with some spares for one of our HS748s when PZ flew for Intra of Jersey.
I will cherish my small Corgi model of her which adores my bookcase.
I hope after assesment that some dedicated engineers may be able to salvage and rebuild her. Best of luck !!
I started my avaition career with Air Anglia at ABZ in 1973 ,then we had the oldest Dak on the Uk register G-AGJV along with G-AOBN.
G-AMPZ used to visit if one of our base aircraft went tech.
I me her again whilst based in Shetland with Dai Air,old capt Joe Retchka flew in with some spares for one of our HS748s when PZ flew for Intra of Jersey.
I will cherish my small Corgi model of her which adores my bookcase.
I hope after assesment that some dedicated engineers may be able to salvage and rebuild her. Best of luck !!
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Picture in No7 shows Port prop almost feathered - not fully - so that may be the reason for turning that way. The newspaper sequence also shows the port engine slower than the Stbd in the shot in flight
For 411
anyone who has put these aircraft on the British register will tell you there is a big difference beteween a DC3 and C47
When I was in SA they put 50 DC3 in the air for the 50th aniversary of the DC3 (Can't remember the year but no doubt someone will)
For 411
anyone who has put these aircraft on the British register will tell you there is a big difference beteween a DC3 and C47When I was in SA they put 50 DC3 in the air for the 50th aniversary of the DC3 (Can't remember the year but no doubt someone will
)
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I was booked on that next Sunday, phew, glad all OK. One of the first lessons you learn in a Dak, you lose a donkey and there is only one place you're going - down.
ps it looks like a C-47 not a DC-3, it has the "big door"
ps it looks like a C-47 not a DC-3, it has the "big door"
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When I was in SA they put 50 DC3 in the air for the 50th aniversary of the DC3
Dak Man, I may be wrong but the C-47 denotes the series. Essentially the type is still a DC-3. See my previous post.
Beats me why a mod has placed this thread in this forum. If they don't want news in the R & N forum, then I would have thought this was for the Nostalgia forum. This a/c is neither GA, Ag, and certainly not a biz-jet. Perhaps the mod doesn't know what a DC-3 is
Beats me why a mod has placed this thread in this forum. If they don't want news in the R & N forum, then I would have thought this was for the Nostalgia forum. This a/c is neither GA, Ag, and certainly not a biz-jet. Perhaps the mod doesn't know what a DC-3 is
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411A you do not know the DC3, I do.
Mechanical down lock absolutely required to be sure the gear does not collapse.
Designed from the beginning this way...in the USA, not in Kiwi-land.
This is digressing from the thread's import but I know the DC3/C47 landing gear system very well; there is no way that the latches would ever disengage from the retraction jack slot/latch guide mechanism, once in Spring Lock. It takes a fair push with a screwdriver to move them against spring pressure and Positive Lock is only a floor-mounted clip to prevent the lever connected to the latch cables from being raised; there is no additional locking mechanism linked to it.
No aggressive input here, I'm simply explaining the way it works.
No aggressive input here, I'm simply explaining the way it works.
Last edited by stevef; 20th Jun 2010 at 19:57.
