Please help selecting a light twin
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Please help selecting a light twin
I'm to select an aircraft type for charter/tour operator business in the southern African region. Every insight is very welcome.
Requirements:
- economic in acquisition and maintenance (~$180k)
- "club class" seating, 4-6 pax, emergency potty
- Range ~1000 nm
- acceptable performance on short (3000ft) and unpaved (gravel, grass) runways
(decent STOL, robust undercarriage)
- occasional over-water ops (twin requirement)
- mostly low-altitude VFR, but pressurized would give some extra freedom
- spare part availability, maintenance support (southern Africa)
Candidate acft so far (more suggestions welcome):
- Piper Navajo
- Cessna 4xx
- Commander 5xx ?
- Britten Norman BN-2X-xx
- Beech Queen
Only the Britten Norman has the robust(?) fixed undercarriage, but a pretty narrow fuselage, how do the others compare in that respect?
Requirements:
- economic in acquisition and maintenance (~$180k)
- "club class" seating, 4-6 pax, emergency potty
- Range ~1000 nm
- acceptable performance on short (3000ft) and unpaved (gravel, grass) runways
(decent STOL, robust undercarriage)
- occasional over-water ops (twin requirement)
- mostly low-altitude VFR, but pressurized would give some extra freedom
- spare part availability, maintenance support (southern Africa)
Candidate acft so far (more suggestions welcome):
- Piper Navajo
- Cessna 4xx
- Commander 5xx ?
- Britten Norman BN-2X-xx
- Beech Queen
Only the Britten Norman has the robust(?) fixed undercarriage, but a pretty narrow fuselage, how do the others compare in that respect?
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Korni,
None of the aircraft you list will have a range of a 1,000 nm, and with a BN2 you will need a calendar to measure the flight time.
The Beech Queen Air has been long out of production and the engines require very gentle handling to avoid catastrophic failure. A Cessna 402 or Piper Navajo would do the job and I know the Navajo can come with a potty seat although you wouldn't want to be shy and retiring to have to use it. However, neither has the range. A Commander 500 would also work at a pinch although pax don't like them but pilots do.
A piston pressurised twin would work except for range but a turbine wouldn't with a lot of low level flight eating up fuel.
As for STOL I have flown both Cessna 402 and Piper Chieftain aircraft out of 800 metre strips at near MTOW. The Chieftain is better because you have a flap option that brings it off at a lower airspeed but you are on a knife edge until the aircraft accelerates. They can both handle relatively rough airstrips.
Hope this gives some ideas.
None of the aircraft you list will have a range of a 1,000 nm, and with a BN2 you will need a calendar to measure the flight time.
The Beech Queen Air has been long out of production and the engines require very gentle handling to avoid catastrophic failure. A Cessna 402 or Piper Navajo would do the job and I know the Navajo can come with a potty seat although you wouldn't want to be shy and retiring to have to use it. However, neither has the range. A Commander 500 would also work at a pinch although pax don't like them but pilots do.
A piston pressurised twin would work except for range but a turbine wouldn't with a lot of low level flight eating up fuel.
As for STOL I have flown both Cessna 402 and Piper Chieftain aircraft out of 800 metre strips at near MTOW. The Chieftain is better because you have a flap option that brings it off at a lower airspeed but you are on a knife edge until the aircraft accelerates. They can both handle relatively rough airstrips.
Hope this gives some ideas.
Last edited by PLovett; 22nd Apr 2010 at 01:48. Reason: Correcting a mong mistake
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Just one remark since I donīt know too uch about piston twins:
what elevations do the strips you wanna go have? That must surely be a key item performancewise...
what elevations do the strips you wanna go have? That must surely be a key item performancewise...
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PA31 Chieftain is at the top of your budget but looks good:
Piper Navajo / Chieftain / Mojave for sale - 1978 PIPER NAVAJO CHIEFTAIN for sale on AircraftDealer.com
Cessna T303 crusader?
General Airways - Cessna Crusader
Piper Navajo / Chieftain / Mojave for sale - 1978 PIPER NAVAJO CHIEFTAIN for sale on AircraftDealer.com
Cessna T303 crusader?
General Airways - Cessna Crusader
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korni
I was flying a Cessna 303 Crusader for a company who needed to use very short and rough strips.
The U/C was built like a tank and the gear could be dropped happily at cruise speed or above ie 170 kts.
Very nice handling aircraft with excellent STOL and very low fuel burns with good carrying capacity.
Down side underpowered for its modern airframe and tempermental engines would have made a superb engine conversion platform.
With some of the others suggested it depends on how short a runway and how rough?
This is your ideal aircraft for the job but no idea what an older one will cost you. They may have to up the budget.
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Pace
I was flying a Cessna 303 Crusader for a company who needed to use very short and rough strips.
The U/C was built like a tank and the gear could be dropped happily at cruise speed or above ie 170 kts.
Very nice handling aircraft with excellent STOL and very low fuel burns with good carrying capacity.
Down side underpowered for its modern airframe and tempermental engines would have made a superb engine conversion platform.
With some of the others suggested it depends on how short a runway and how rough?
This is your ideal aircraft for the job but no idea what an older one will cost you. They may have to up the budget.
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Pace
Last edited by Pace; 21st Apr 2010 at 12:17.
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Thanks a bunch for the enlightening comments.
The C T303 Crusader definively looks like a candidate I've overlooked so far.
As for the airstrips planned: Part of the ops would be Botswana and around, that is elev. 3000ft@25-35C, so pretty hot&high. The strips, although called "Bushstrips" are often well maintained (e.g. "Calcrete", i.e. natural hard surface from dried mineralized water), but the occasional bump or stone should not destroy the way-too-fragile U/C.
The 1000 NM range are probably the upper limit, 800 NM may do equally well.
The C T303 Crusader definively looks like a candidate I've overlooked so far.
As for the airstrips planned: Part of the ops would be Botswana and around, that is elev. 3000ft@25-35C, so pretty hot&high. The strips, although called "Bushstrips" are often well maintained (e.g. "Calcrete", i.e. natural hard surface from dried mineralized water), but the occasional bump or stone should not destroy the way-too-fragile U/C.
The 1000 NM range are probably the upper limit, 800 NM may do equally well.
As for STOL I have flown both Cessna 402 and Piper Chieftain aircraft out of 300 metre strips at near MTOW
Might that be a typo? I have also flown both types, but would be looking for more 800 metres (unless of course you don't plan on using the aircraft again).
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Not sure what your exact application is to be, but, if club 4 seats works, best bet in my opinion is a Beech Baron 58. Have experience on all of the above (in sales too in a previous life) and all are costly to maintain.....Navajo / Chietain is nice in offereing cabin type class comfort but for African conditions......58 Baron wins everytime! Forget about pressurization in a light twin if you are operating off short dirt strips. Also drives costs up.....seen plenty of blown turbo-chargers in my time....but it did help my workshop profits though!
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You may want to look at the fastest one out there: Aerostar (AEST).
Still not a low-maintenance animal, and for Africa I suspect you might be better off with something that burns JetA1
Still not a low-maintenance animal, and for Africa I suspect you might be better off with something that burns JetA1
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Yes, I concur. If you can, get a turbine.
Having flown the types mentioned above I would recommend the Reims-F406.
A Cessna design, built under licence by Reims.
Good size cabin, will handle the hot'n'high with ease, has group A performance, far more reliable than a piston twin, trailing link undercarriage with decent brakes and of course, reverse thrust. And far more than a 1000nm range with the loads you suggest.
Pressurisation in piston twins is a heavy and expensive luxury.
However, for this sort of money I guess you can start looking at the Beech Kingair family. Havent flown them, so cant comment
Having flown the types mentioned above I would recommend the Reims-F406.
A Cessna design, built under licence by Reims.
Good size cabin, will handle the hot'n'high with ease, has group A performance, far more reliable than a piston twin, trailing link undercarriage with decent brakes and of course, reverse thrust. And far more than a 1000nm range with the loads you suggest.
Pressurisation in piston twins is a heavy and expensive luxury.
However, for this sort of money I guess you can start looking at the Beech Kingair family. Havent flown them, so cant comment
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While you won't find a twin turbine for the price you're looking at, I'd suggest you might want to consider a single turbine.
Failiures are very uncommon, and knowing you only got one engine kind of ensures you give it all the tender love and care it requires.
Also note that quite a few piston twins don't stay up if one engine quits (with full load).
As for the Aerostar:
- economic in acquisition and maintenance (~$180k)
, but will need work
- "club class" seating, 4-6 pax, emergency potty: 4/5Pax +Pilot. No Potty
- Range ~1000 nm Mine runs 1500nm (no reserves), and after that it glides another 50nm
- acceptable performance on short (3000ft) and unpaved (gravel, grass) runways: Depends on engines (290/350HP) , load and Wx. 3000 paved OK, but you must run the numbers
- occasional over-water ops (twin requirement): Crossed Atlantic Brazil-Africa. Good enough? Honestly recommend reconsider if you REALLY need it. Twin that is.
- mostly low-altitude VFR, but pressurized would give some extra freedom: Sure, but also extra $. If normal legs 500nm or less I'd forget about it. Mine is certified 30k, but kind of gets tired above 25k.
- spare part availability, maintenance support (southern Africa): I believe there are several flying in SA so should be no problem.
Oh and cruises about 230 KTAS.
If your expected legs are 500-1200nm it's worth looking closer at (If you insist on piston twin)
More info: Aerostar Aircraft Corporation
To find a used one Aircraft for sale: used Aircraft for sale, Helicopter sales, Private Air Charter, Aircraft Leasing, Airplanes for sale, Aircraft sales, Aircraft Auction
Failiures are very uncommon, and knowing you only got one engine kind of ensures you give it all the tender love and care it requires.
Also note that quite a few piston twins don't stay up if one engine quits (with full load).
As for the Aerostar:
- economic in acquisition and maintenance (~$180k)
, but will need work- "club class" seating, 4-6 pax, emergency potty: 4/5Pax +Pilot. No Potty
- Range ~1000 nm
Mine runs 1500nm (no reserves), and after that it glides another 50nm- acceptable performance on short (3000ft) and unpaved (gravel, grass) runways: Depends on engines (290/350HP) , load and Wx. 3000 paved OK, but you must run the numbers
- occasional over-water ops (twin requirement): Crossed Atlantic Brazil-Africa. Good enough? Honestly recommend reconsider if you REALLY need it. Twin that is.
- mostly low-altitude VFR, but pressurized would give some extra freedom: Sure, but also extra $. If normal legs 500nm or less I'd forget about it. Mine is certified 30k, but kind of gets tired above 25k.
- spare part availability, maintenance support (southern Africa): I believe there are several flying in SA so should be no problem.
Oh and cruises about 230 KTAS.
If your expected legs are 500-1200nm it's worth looking closer at (If you insist on piston twin)
More info: Aerostar Aircraft Corporation
To find a used one Aircraft for sale: used Aircraft for sale, Helicopter sales, Private Air Charter, Aircraft Leasing, Airplanes for sale, Aircraft sales, Aircraft Auction
Last edited by AEST; 24th Apr 2010 at 01:52.
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Twin Commander all the way.
Their short field performance, rugged landing gear and high wing make the ideal for what you need. They also can cruise fast and go well over 1000nm.
And single engine performance is pretty much second to none.
It's the only one.
Their short field performance, rugged landing gear and high wing make the ideal for what you need. They also can cruise fast and go well over 1000nm.
And single engine performance is pretty much second to none.
It's the only one.
