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Airframe Icing

Old 30th Dec 2009, 12:28
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Airframe Icing

Over the past couple of days I have seen some really interesting discussions where icing came up a lot. I have also seen that there is a fair bit of confusion on this particular topic. My personal view is I am surprised how little is understood and actually how little is taught outside of the ATPL syllabus on subject matter that applies to basically any pilot who flies out of sight of the ground. I personally thought it fine in my younger days with a newly acquired IMC rating to go cloud chasing and I was actually once advised by an instructor when I was still wet behind the ears that it would be better to be sat in cloud at 9000ft if you were going on a trip of any distance. I dont know if things have changed significantly in recent years but I personally didnt touch upon the subject until I did my IR and even then I would now say nowhere near as much as would serve to give enough information about exit strategies and icing planning etc. I was advised by an ATPL friend to do a specific course which is available on both ground icing and in flight icing and I couldnt believe that such an in depth and informative course was actually free of charge. I personally got great benefit from this course and will add the link at the end in case any fellow pilot wishes to explore the subject further. Of course I realise that a lot of pilots out there fully understand all there is to know about the subject so this isnt aimed at you but even if only one person looks at it and gets benefit from it, then the skies are a safer place today then they were yesterday.

Aircraft Icing Training - Courses
A2B Ferry is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2009, 13:19
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Thanks! Back from Canada, I always felt like what some of my pilot friends knew about icing was a bit...too thin...Especially after experiencing a lot of icing conditions first hand!
So this course is definitely a great material, thanks again!
lanef300 is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2009, 13:28
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You can actually buy the dvd for a small fee I think I paid $10 a few years ago , very good investment.
ab33t is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2009, 17:47
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Pretty damned simple. if on the ground their is any icing, deice. if not sure of a clean wing do it again or cancel the flight. In the Air if you encounter ice, first power up, go up, you can always go down, keep min ice speed, use your boots. If worse comes to worse, turnaround get the hell out. If still ice on airframe use ref+10-15 or whatever the POH says. Tons of time in icing out here, Only 3 times that I prayed. 1. PA 31 in unforecast 2. BA31 in forecast light 3. B1900 in worse than forecast. That is despite my best efforts after #1
rigpiggy is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2009, 18:08
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airframe icing

In the Air if you encounter ice, first power up, go up, you can always go down,
Amazing,, If I had realized it was that simple I shouldnt have bothered all the research.
So if you encountered ice pellets in flight, would you still power up and go up I wonder. Could it be in that instance that there would be freezing rain, guaranteed at a higher level????? Lets also consider the surface temperature is below freezing and then you really are up creek without a paddle. Im sure you must know all about warm and stationary fronts and temperature inversions etc or didnt your advice account for that?
I did say this post wasnt for the professional pilots who knew all there was to know but if thats your advice, you would probably benefit in a huge way from taking the time to have a look at it. Theres some interesting accident reports from invetigators who actually reference poor decision making in nearly every case and theres plenty of them
A2B Ferry is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2009, 19:17
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If i'm in Ice pellets, i'm not icing up am I. And normally if in freezing rain a few thousand feet turns it to snow. 8k later of pounding around at low level, so I may have a little experience.... Oh and given the choice I will always find the sun/clear rather than the clag, unless severe turb is expected, then adjust as necessary
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Old 30th Dec 2009, 19:27
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airframe icing

If i'm in Ice pellets, i'm not icing up am I.
Im not sure if your joking now but I actually think your being serious? Just to clarify, are you sure your not mistaking ice pellets for hail or ice crystals?

If you are being serious then I would question your credentials. I would be amazed if a B1900 pilot would have such a distinct lack of knowledge in IFR and cold weather operations. i will actually bite my tongue here and allow you time to reflect on what you have put in text.

For consideration.

FAA Issues Urgent Reminder to Air Carriers Regarding Operating in Ice Pellet/Snow Conditions

December 21, 2005
On December 21, 2005, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) issued a reminder to airlines, charter operators and FAA inspectors that operating in ice pellet conditions with anti-icing fluids on the critical surfaces of an aircraft is contrary to FAA guidance and policy expressed in two FAA Notices:The FAA stated that the Agency does not have sufficient data at this time to approve such operations; therefore, such operations are considered to be potentially hazardous. NBAA urges all Part 135 certificate holders to review their flight release procedures and anti-ice/de-ice programs to ensure they are in full compliance with FAA regulations and guidance.
FAA Warning: Anti-Ice/De-Ice Programs Operating in Ice Pellets and Heavy Snow
debiassi is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2009, 20:58
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airframe icing

Im almost lost for words. Shall we just allow those that wish to view the course and benefit from it do so. it would appear that maybe a solitary ATPL could also benefit from it.
A2B Ferry is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2009, 21:23
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Debiase, Pretty damned simple. if on the ground their is any icing, deice. If not sure of a clean wing do it again or cancel the flight.

guess what where HOT's do not cover you are a test pilot. so maybe I am just being too simple for you. BTW TC's reg's are for the most part more strict than the FAA. Polished Ice anyone, not.

A2B, I check the weather, progs, sigs, pirep, radar, etc... before I go

http://adds.aviationweather.noaa.gov...wrap_image.php
ADDS - Turbulence PIREPs for the NW region

With almost all of my flying in the airline world where cancellations mean headaches, I will say that if I am uncomfortable about the trip, I will cancel.

I guess the KISS principle doesn't apply in the UK.
rigpiggy is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2009, 21:35
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I doubt it is necessary to go on, every one can come to their conclusion by simply reading the posts....
The most important thing being you having found this great website, I'll make sure to send it to my fellow friends and students flying around, along with the Transport Canada safety letter, or this pretty good website from TC:
Holdover Time (HOT) Tables - Commercial and Business Aviation - Airlines & Aviation Operations - Air Transportation - Transport Canada
lanef300 is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2009, 21:39
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airframe icing

If i'm in Ice pellets, i'm not icing up am I.
As an ATPL could you possibly explain what you mean when you made the above quote and how could you possibly justify to anyone initiating a climb from ice pellets into freezing rain at a higher altitude. Surely this is tantamount not only to commiting suicide but also corporate manslaughter at best. Please restore my faith and state you accept ice pellets are icing conditions and represent a severe hazzard to aircraft and also that you would certainly never really initiate a climb out of ice pellets into supecooled liquid that would most certainly strike the aircraft aft of the protected regions and render the aerodynamic properties useless within minutes. Are you really offering this as an exit strategy????????
For those who will take some positives from the post and the link. this is possibly a prime example in question of just how little icing is understood.
A2B Ferry is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2009, 21:57
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What is Minimum icing speed on your present aircraft, and what does this number mean?

Maybe I'm spoiled by the power allowing me to out climb 99.9 % of icing conditions. @ 160 kias, I normally climb about 2000fpm, if I am not through in 90 seconds or so then I reevaluate.

But I guess since I am not a ferry pilot, I wouldn't have any experience with ice.

Having lost several friends to ice, I probably have a very healthy respect for it

LaneF300 good post

Last edited by rigpiggy; 30th Dec 2009 at 21:59. Reason: addition
rigpiggy is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2010, 19:04
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airframe icing

Hot off the press, aircraft departed Bangor Maine earlier today in marginal conditions on a ferry flight heading for Russia.
The metar at time of departure was
KBGR 041738Z 33015KT 3SM -SN BR FEW025 OVC030 02/M01 A2936 RMK AO2 P0000


Reported Plane Crash - WABI TV5



debiassi is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2010, 21:13
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What a shame. Latest news reports that divers are being sent to recover the body. I don't know yet who the pilot of that plane was, but I know several of the pilots who have been ferrying those over to Russia over the past couple of months, so I'm sure I know him.

Looking at the track log, my best guess would be that he got loaded up with ice, and got pretty slow trying to maintain altitude and then probably stalled. All the data after 10:49 looks erroneous, but before that it looks like he had been slowly climbing to 5,500 and then leveled off for about 5 minutes, with a ground speed of 53 knots. Winds aloft for that time show the winds at 040 at 14 knots with an OAT of -7C. That would put him in level flight with a TAS of 67 knots which would be about 62 knots IAS , which is pretty slow for an iced up airplane with an extra 125 gallons of AvGas in the back seat. Without ice and at full power, a 172S will still do about 120 knots TAS with a full ferry tank in the back. If he was running at full power, that would have been a ton of ice to slow him all the way down to 67 knots. Needless to say, in a situation with an iced-up, overgross, and aft CG aircraft, the stall speed is going to be much higher and if the aircraft does stall, it is most likely not going to be recoverable.

Obviously this is all speculation, but all I can say is that airframe icing is serious business and should be treated as such. I think this goes to show how quickly a situation can go from bad to dead.

My condolences go out to the pilot's family and friends.

Blue Skies!
periksmoen is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2010, 10:33
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airframe icing

Yeh unfortunately he topped off the ferry tanks in Bangor then departed for Goose Bay. He had been sitting in Bagor for 4 days awaiting more favourable weather. He tried to climb through the cloud to get VMC on top but the climb rate and the forecast moderate icing kept him in icing conditions for too long. The pilot was James Beaton, aged 78 from Wales. Our thoughts go out to the familly he leaves behind.
RIP James.
British pilot dies in US plane crash - Telegraph
A2B Ferry is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2010, 15:24
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rigpiggy says:
Pretty damned simple
I say pretty damn arrogant of him.


A2B Ferry - excellent thread/link, good of you to share I'm Europe based but operate worldwide and browse these courses annually. They are relevant, practical, realistic and regularly updated. And Free!
theWings is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2010, 05:20
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iPhone

Anybody any clue for a holdover time iPhone app?
Tnx a lot!
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Old 8th Jan 2010, 09:31
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iPhone Apps

Try Pilots Toolbox(PToolbox)...http://web.me.com/mac.ps and in the iTunes store under iPhone Apps of course...somewhere!
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