Netjets airplanes in storage
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Truly share everyone's disquiet at the dreadful business cycle we are pretty much all in. 40-45% of the world's wealth has been destroyed in the past 18 months as has been recently commented in the financial press. Normally, the rich do ride the turbulence better in relative terms but this time round they've taken a fare old amount of icing to let them climb anywhere near a jet stream to piggy-back home quickly. It's not all doom and gloom; innovation and yes even greed can't be capped for long. Human nature is what it is and entrepreneurialism will turn this round in due course. In the same way the media IMHO haven't helped and only speeded up the slow down; when the reverse eventually comes those glimers of hope will be transmitted (hopefully) nearly as quickly around the globe. It's not so obvious but even in these ugly times opportunities will eventually prevail. Chin up all!
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Oh bugger, I was the victim of redundancy after OBL and his mates decided to remodel Manhattan. I was young enough then to survive and find other employment, if it happens again 8 years on, rhymes with "clucking bell"
As for seniority, it did nothing to protect me and many others last time round, we were on the "wrong fleet" and got axed, with the blessing of the union I might add. Maybe this time I'm on the "right fleet" as I seem to fly most tours. Better prepare for the worst though. I wonder if B & Q need anyone to sell drills and things?
Best of luck to all concerned. Sympathy doesn't pay the bills but there is life outside.
As for seniority, it did nothing to protect me and many others last time round, we were on the "wrong fleet" and got axed, with the blessing of the union I might add. Maybe this time I'm on the "right fleet" as I seem to fly most tours. Better prepare for the worst though. I wonder if B & Q need anyone to sell drills and things?
Best of luck to all concerned. Sympathy doesn't pay the bills but there is life outside.
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Who are conspicuous by their absence, are the persons on this site, ready to lay down mind, body and soul in defence of NJ.
Maybe they are feeling a little uneasy at the prospect their "efforts" have not been enough.
Maybe they are feeling a little uneasy at the prospect their "efforts" have not been enough.
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In his defence (I can't believe I just wrote that) the main banner waver has been banned in all his personae but I doubt he'd have much to say this time anyway.
The sad part is the crew are being led by the nose. Few above the rank of fleet manager give a toss about them, just their own bonuses. Whatever is going to happen in terms of T&C or crew reductions has already been decided by 'them' and if there's any negotiations with employees it'll be for show only. All as predicted several years ago when the NJA union leaders came to Europe and when many people shouted down one of their own as a scaremonger and madman.
I write this with absolutely no pleasure to those who ridiculed the person in question but you owe him (and anyone that's been in NJE for more than six months knows who I'm talking about) a huge apology. He stuck his neck out for you and in addition to being snitched on to management by a so-called 'colleague' was howled down by the very people he tried to help. Has anyone had the decency to apologise and admit to him that he was right?
The sad part is the crew are being led by the nose. Few above the rank of fleet manager give a toss about them, just their own bonuses. Whatever is going to happen in terms of T&C or crew reductions has already been decided by 'them' and if there's any negotiations with employees it'll be for show only. All as predicted several years ago when the NJA union leaders came to Europe and when many people shouted down one of their own as a scaremonger and madman.
I write this with absolutely no pleasure to those who ridiculed the person in question but you owe him (and anyone that's been in NJE for more than six months knows who I'm talking about) a huge apology. He stuck his neck out for you and in addition to being snitched on to management by a so-called 'colleague' was howled down by the very people he tried to help. Has anyone had the decency to apologise and admit to him that he was right?
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Well, maybe we are just tired of arguing with people who have already made up their mind. There was talk about the CPS not being paid - it was. There was talk about the inflation rise not being paid (and thereby the contracts broken) - it was paid.
In the end, it comes down to personal views. If you think that NJE is bad, bad, bad and anyone who thinks otherwise is brainwashed, there is nothing to talk about, really. So, I will not ask you how you noticed a change in tone by the management and so on. I just propose a bet to you, Flintstone: I bet that IŽll still be employed at the end of the year. Being one of the new-joiners on one of the small-cabin fleets, I should be one of the first to go. Should I loose, IŽll admit it in this very forum that IŽve been very wrong; I expect the same from you, should you be wrong (which I - truth be told - hope). So, you wonna bet?
BTW, I donŽt care about how many posts you have, but if you really posted 2 a week, then youŽre already on this forum since 1992! ThatŽs incredible - I didnŽt even know what internet is in 1992...
In the end, it comes down to personal views. If you think that NJE is bad, bad, bad and anyone who thinks otherwise is brainwashed, there is nothing to talk about, really. So, I will not ask you how you noticed a change in tone by the management and so on. I just propose a bet to you, Flintstone: I bet that IŽll still be employed at the end of the year. Being one of the new-joiners on one of the small-cabin fleets, I should be one of the first to go. Should I loose, IŽll admit it in this very forum that IŽve been very wrong; I expect the same from you, should you be wrong (which I - truth be told - hope). So, you wonna bet?
BTW, I donŽt care about how many posts you have, but if you really posted 2 a week, then youŽre already on this forum since 1992! ThatŽs incredible - I didnŽt even know what internet is in 1992...
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CS. Ok, three a week then. Where are we going with this?
To stay on point, ask some of your longer standing colleagues exactly how NJE management 'negotiate'. History shows that they simply don't, they impose. The Teamsters tried to tell you (them) three years ago. They predicted how the company would union bust with 1) committees, 2) surveys, 3) consultancy periods and 4) 'helpful' co-workers.
1) What's happening right now in Lisbon? Haven't some crew been invited to sit in and 'discuss' certain measures? How's it going? One person told me he was allowed little or no input and was just along for the ride, to countersign measures placed before him.
2) How did the big survey go? Over a year ago now and dragged out over months.
3) What was the company response to the survey results? Well, some subjects were conveniently ignored while others are still being 'considered'.
4) It's common knowledge that emails between members of the would-be union committee landed on desks in Lisbon, London and the States. They were marked and traceable to the person concerned.
If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck..............
You're being had. These measures are not there for your benefit or because the company care for you as individuals. They are there to buy time and keep you on the back foot. They are commercial tactics taught on courses attended by NJ upper management. How does anyone know this? Because the Teamsters sent their own people on the same courses to see what they were up against. Denial is understandable particularly for those in their honeymoon period but unless you unite and organise you're going to be screwed three ways over a barrel and you won't even know what hit you until they're zipping up their fly afterward. It's absolutely no skin off my nose whatsoever but the naievete of some, even in the face of overwhelming historical evidence, is incredible.
Good luck.
To stay on point, ask some of your longer standing colleagues exactly how NJE management 'negotiate'. History shows that they simply don't, they impose. The Teamsters tried to tell you (them) three years ago. They predicted how the company would union bust with 1) committees, 2) surveys, 3) consultancy periods and 4) 'helpful' co-workers.
1) What's happening right now in Lisbon? Haven't some crew been invited to sit in and 'discuss' certain measures? How's it going? One person told me he was allowed little or no input and was just along for the ride, to countersign measures placed before him.
2) How did the big survey go? Over a year ago now and dragged out over months.
3) What was the company response to the survey results? Well, some subjects were conveniently ignored while others are still being 'considered'.
4) It's common knowledge that emails between members of the would-be union committee landed on desks in Lisbon, London and the States. They were marked and traceable to the person concerned.
If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck..............
You're being had. These measures are not there for your benefit or because the company care for you as individuals. They are there to buy time and keep you on the back foot. They are commercial tactics taught on courses attended by NJ upper management. How does anyone know this? Because the Teamsters sent their own people on the same courses to see what they were up against. Denial is understandable particularly for those in their honeymoon period but unless you unite and organise you're going to be screwed three ways over a barrel and you won't even know what hit you until they're zipping up their fly afterward. It's absolutely no skin off my nose whatsoever but the naievete of some, even in the face of overwhelming historical evidence, is incredible.
Good luck.
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So, Scratch Pad, are you gonna bet with me? - Regarding the nice picture: Of course I am worried. Of course times are bad. Of course thereŽs a risk of being fired. Of course no-one is safe (what about you, btw?). But I still donŽt think the situation is as gloomy as some people here WANT to believe.
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Oh, I'll bet with you alright Captain. I'll bet that you will still be there because you're new, relatively low-time (in company) and therefore impressionable, malleable and less inclined to resist change. An HR director's dream come true. Exactly the same reasons that RYR have so many cadets who (additionally) depend upon their jobs to pay their huge loans.
As for NJ meeting their promises in the form of the cost of living rise you speared your own argument. If they were contractually obliged to do so they had no choice (although I think we all know they were somewhat creative in the % used). In the old days they'd have given it a go but they've been sued enough times now to know it would have happened in spades. With the current situation any number of deeds can be done under the guise of saving money and it will be difficult to disprove. They can't go down the route of first in/first out because that will rob them of the very (pliant) people they need ie, new hires and cadets so in a purely academic way it will be interesting to see how they do it. I'd expect reduced working patterns and voluntary unpaid leave before anyone gets fired.
One thing's for sure though, whatever is going to happen to some of you has already been decided. They just haven't told you yet. They'll have contingency plans in stages but once (if) they make 'The' decision everyone else is along for the ride.
As for NJ meeting their promises in the form of the cost of living rise you speared your own argument. If they were contractually obliged to do so they had no choice (although I think we all know they were somewhat creative in the % used). In the old days they'd have given it a go but they've been sued enough times now to know it would have happened in spades. With the current situation any number of deeds can be done under the guise of saving money and it will be difficult to disprove. They can't go down the route of first in/first out because that will rob them of the very (pliant) people they need ie, new hires and cadets so in a purely academic way it will be interesting to see how they do it. I'd expect reduced working patterns and voluntary unpaid leave before anyone gets fired.
One thing's for sure though, whatever is going to happen to some of you has already been decided. They just haven't told you yet. They'll have contingency plans in stages but once (if) they make 'The' decision everyone else is along for the ride.
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Flintstone, you really know how to spoil a good bet. As it is now, youŽll be right in any case: If I get fired, then you were right in the first place. If I stay, youŽll think it is due to the reasons you stated above (which, if I may say so, are neglecting a lot of other factors and were a bit you jumping to conclusions). 
And you wonder why no NJE-pilots are participating here?
And regarding the inflation issue - I just wanted to point out that in earlier cases some people here, including you, were always assuming the worst - which is just as far away from the truth as always assuming the best.
You wrote:
Because they'd never change contract terms and conditions on a whim, would they? I mean, it's not like they've ever done that before, is it? 
But letŽs leave it to that. You have your experiences with the company (I appreciate that), I got mine. End of story.
And you wonder why no NJE-pilots are participating here?
And regarding the inflation issue - I just wanted to point out that in earlier cases some people here, including you, were always assuming the worst - which is just as far away from the truth as always assuming the best.
You wrote:
Originally Posted by south coast
The OECD inflation rise is part of the contract, if NJ start breaking part of the package they will find it hard to patch up the broken trust.
The OECD inflation rise is part of the contract, if NJ start breaking part of the package they will find it hard to patch up the broken trust.
Last edited by Cpt_Schmerzfrei; 24th Apr 2009 at 15:31. Reason: This time, I mispelled "conclusions"
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...take...
...my offer : to everybody on this site who likes to paint the wall dark : dark master alias DM time is over, mangement tries all to save jobs and will find solutions!
Flinti / bet gainst me> I am a newer captain, high seniority number, I will stay with nje also to the end of the year, as more than 1000 pilots and staff will stay so and longer...ready to bet
Flinti / bet gainst me> I am a newer captain, high seniority number, I will stay with nje also to the end of the year, as more than 1000 pilots and staff will stay so and longer...ready to bet
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We are all facing possible job loss wether you are flying a private owner or flying for NJE, Unfortunately Flinty is right, not one company can keep on paying so many people for doing nearly nothing and sitting at home.
Let us also not forget that an american owned company has absolutely no problem in furloughing people...So will NJE fire people? I do not think so...will they send people home without payment untill things go better..I definately say yes, for how long? That is the answer that none of us knows..some smart guys say the crisis is over, other smart guys say it is just only hitting us and a lot of corpses are still to be discovered....
Who is right? Well I do not know and will not even try guessing..
Like everybody else I hope to still have a job by the end of the year...
I will feel very sorry for all of us that will go on unpaid and undetermined leave and I hope that I will not be part of it.
For those of us that fly, fly safe...
Let us also not forget that an american owned company has absolutely no problem in furloughing people...So will NJE fire people? I do not think so...will they send people home without payment untill things go better..I definately say yes, for how long? That is the answer that none of us knows..some smart guys say the crisis is over, other smart guys say it is just only hitting us and a lot of corpses are still to be discovered....
Who is right? Well I do not know and will not even try guessing..
Like everybody else I hope to still have a job by the end of the year...
I will feel very sorry for all of us that will go on unpaid and undetermined leave and I hope that I will not be part of it.
For those of us that fly, fly safe...
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Captain S. Welcome to the world of 20/20 hindsight management.
austrian. Bet on what? You say yourself you're new and therefore less likely to be considered a problem. Your chances are better but wouldn't it make more sense to load the dice in your favour by organising yourselves rather than waiting for the shoe to drop? Would you take off without a viable alternate?
I have always said that if there's one thing NJ have managed to do it's not lay anyone off. Yet. The pressure from BH to not fire will be immense, it's a huge part of their PR in the States though sadly doesn't extend to FSI where instructors are dropped without a second thought (post 9/11 and recently). That's easy to do because the flying public/potential customers don't associate FSI with NJ even though both are owned by BH but it should also tell you that there's another reason they're not laying pilots off. It is not because they care. It's PR and therefore a quantifiable and justifiable expense (to a point).
Where things may differ now though is that NJE is not NJA/NJI who have union protection, NJE was overcrewed (because of a cynical plan by upper management on the french tax deal) long before the downturn and NJE are obliged to continue to take their cadets. Then again they could always falsify the aptitude exam for the whole intake and bin them like they did a certain ex-FA. Ask the HR director and Papa Smurf about that one.
Their contingency plans will have been drawn up purely on a hard-headed financial/commercial basis with no concern whatsoever for individual pilots. Why people still believe, in the face of overwhelming historical evidence, that NJE is a warm and fuzzy employer amazes me.
Why aren't the crew on here? Well at least two say they're keeping their heads down for fear of being identified and being added to the wrong list. Maybe the others are on their own forum that 'someone' helped set up for them?
To put it bluntly it makes no real difference whatsoever to me what happens though it goes without saying I don't want to see anyone lose their jobs. I'm looking at it as an outsider with the benefit of first hand experience of some of the players. Nobody seems to have argued with the points about union busting so I take it you accept them as being so. What you should consider is why would a company go to such lengths to avoid some kind of pilot union/association if they were planning to always play fair?
Honestly, I hope it works out. A swift upturn will be a saviour but your upper management won't lose any sleep should it go the other way.
austrian. Bet on what? You say yourself you're new and therefore less likely to be considered a problem. Your chances are better but wouldn't it make more sense to load the dice in your favour by organising yourselves rather than waiting for the shoe to drop? Would you take off without a viable alternate?
I have always said that if there's one thing NJ have managed to do it's not lay anyone off. Yet. The pressure from BH to not fire will be immense, it's a huge part of their PR in the States though sadly doesn't extend to FSI where instructors are dropped without a second thought (post 9/11 and recently). That's easy to do because the flying public/potential customers don't associate FSI with NJ even though both are owned by BH but it should also tell you that there's another reason they're not laying pilots off. It is not because they care. It's PR and therefore a quantifiable and justifiable expense (to a point).
Where things may differ now though is that NJE is not NJA/NJI who have union protection, NJE was overcrewed (because of a cynical plan by upper management on the french tax deal) long before the downturn and NJE are obliged to continue to take their cadets. Then again they could always falsify the aptitude exam for the whole intake and bin them like they did a certain ex-FA. Ask the HR director and Papa Smurf about that one.
Their contingency plans will have been drawn up purely on a hard-headed financial/commercial basis with no concern whatsoever for individual pilots. Why people still believe, in the face of overwhelming historical evidence, that NJE is a warm and fuzzy employer amazes me.
Why aren't the crew on here? Well at least two say they're keeping their heads down for fear of being identified and being added to the wrong list. Maybe the others are on their own forum that 'someone' helped set up for them?
To put it bluntly it makes no real difference whatsoever to me what happens though it goes without saying I don't want to see anyone lose their jobs. I'm looking at it as an outsider with the benefit of first hand experience of some of the players. Nobody seems to have argued with the points about union busting so I take it you accept them as being so. What you should consider is why would a company go to such lengths to avoid some kind of pilot union/association if they were planning to always play fair?
Honestly, I hope it works out. A swift upturn will be a saviour but your upper management won't lose any sleep should it go the other way.
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Flintstone
I'm looking at it as an outsider
Last edited by HarrysHawk; 27th Apr 2009 at 20:48.
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HarrysHawk, why so touchy?
Maybe Flintstone is totally wrong, yet I fail to see how he and his posts could prevent you and others, especially NJE from "working constructively"
Reading your post several times I come to the conclusion that maybe your underpants are filled. Mine certainly are, even though IŽm not with NJE. "My" Airplane has joined the hundreds on the for sale pages. Friends at NJE tell me how little they fly. I sure hope that changes, the sooner the better.(Flints does the same)
Maybe Flintstone is totally wrong, yet I fail to see how he and his posts could prevent you and others, especially NJE from "working constructively"
Reading your post several times I come to the conclusion that maybe your underpants are filled. Mine certainly are, even though IŽm not with NJE. "My" Airplane has joined the hundreds on the for sale pages. Friends at NJE tell me how little they fly. I sure hope that changes, the sooner the better.(Flints does the same)