NetJets 2009 danger ahead ?
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Why should there be any news about it ?!?
Its not something to be negotiated every year, its like this !
of course they could easily cut a little bit of the wages, like AF, BA and LH can...
Its not something to be negotiated every year, its like this !
of course they could easily cut a little bit of the wages, like AF, BA and LH can...
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Originally Posted by south coast
The OECD inflation rise is part of the contract, if NJ start breaking part of the package they will find it hard to patch up the broken trust.
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Not fishing, no need. Just that when when you want to know how a person or company is likely to behave in a given situation their history is a fair indicator in a 'leopards and spots' kind of way.
My opinion, for what it's worth, is that if things get tight 'they' will do whatever suits them irrespective of what your contracts say. I know most of the people have changed but the senior management culture makes me think they'd do it again. They have too much at stake in terms of their own pay and bonuses to lose sleep over it and they still know the workforce aren't a cohesive group so there'll be no resistance.
I agree with you that once again trust would go out the window but they've managed more years without than with it and the ultimate goal of keeping the company going would be achieved in the short term. Once the dust settled they could appease people with some promises, maybe get some consultants in to conduct a few surveys, drag that out for a while with airy promises of results and changes to come..................
Like I say though, that's never happened before has it?
My opinion, for what it's worth, is that if things get tight 'they' will do whatever suits them irrespective of what your contracts say. I know most of the people have changed but the senior management culture makes me think they'd do it again. They have too much at stake in terms of their own pay and bonuses to lose sleep over it and they still know the workforce aren't a cohesive group so there'll be no resistance.
I agree with you that once again trust would go out the window but they've managed more years without than with it and the ultimate goal of keeping the company going would be achieved in the short term. Once the dust settled they could appease people with some promises, maybe get some consultants in to conduct a few surveys, drag that out for a while with airy promises of results and changes to come..................
Like I say though, that's never happened before has it?
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First impressions
Any company that cant be a*rsed to even reply, even an auto reply, to an application will let you down sooner than later.
If a company behaves and the culture is such that they treat people with such contempt when they are looking for crews, then how will they treat crews when they are not needed? Very badly I say.
If a company behaves and the culture is such that they treat people with such contempt when they are looking for crews, then how will they treat crews when they are not needed? Very badly I say.
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Anybody on positive news over OECD inflation correction ?
And anybody about how many aircraft will go into long term storage ?
Any news on upcoming changes in the commercial department ?
And anybody about how many aircraft will go into long term storage ?
Any news on upcoming changes in the commercial department ?
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Any company that cant be a*rsed to even reply, even an auto reply, to an application will let you down sooner than later.
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Is NTA part of Berkshire Hathaway?
I thought they were.
All NTA Aircrew get a BH "Ethics Compliance Hotline" doc to enable them to call in with evidence of unethical behavior. Here is a quote from NTA's London based legal council. He was investigator, judge & jury on this recent case: (I quote), "These complaints were removed from the Berkshire Hathaway process as they principally involved complaints against NetJets Transportes Aereos (NTA) employees and NTA is not part of the Berkshire Hathaway group compliance"
No prizes for guessing the outcome.
...eeerr...why do BH send NTA employees the BH Hotline details if Lisbon & London are not covered by the deal?
Is NTA in trouble? How much? Possibly we'll find out in January once NSM (NetJets Staff Management) have paid themselves their annual bonus.
All NTA Aircrew get a BH "Ethics Compliance Hotline" doc to enable them to call in with evidence of unethical behavior. Here is a quote from NTA's London based legal council. He was investigator, judge & jury on this recent case: (I quote), "These complaints were removed from the Berkshire Hathaway process as they principally involved complaints against NetJets Transportes Aereos (NTA) employees and NTA is not part of the Berkshire Hathaway group compliance"
No prizes for guessing the outcome.
...eeerr...why do BH send NTA employees the BH Hotline details if Lisbon & London are not covered by the deal?
Is NTA in trouble? How much? Possibly we'll find out in January once NSM (NetJets Staff Management) have paid themselves their annual bonus.
Last edited by groan & moan; 29th Dec 2008 at 12:40.
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NTA in trouble? We'll see
Strange that NTA are not part of the BH compliance. Any other feedback on that?
I am curious about the apparent overcrewing policy; -I have the following questions, (bearing in mind that I personally know serveral stockbrokers who bailed out of the City last May to avoid the crash).
1) Did Buffet, (the Oracle of Omaha), forsee the crash before last summer, (like my stockbroker aquaintences)?
2) If Buffet forsaw the crash then would he have informed Santulli?
3) If the answer is mainly yes to the above then why has NTA continued hiring new Pilots & training Cadets until Nov 08?
I am curious about the apparent overcrewing policy; -I have the following questions, (bearing in mind that I personally know serveral stockbrokers who bailed out of the City last May to avoid the crash).
1) Did Buffet, (the Oracle of Omaha), forsee the crash before last summer, (like my stockbroker aquaintences)?
2) If Buffet forsaw the crash then would he have informed Santulli?
3) If the answer is mainly yes to the above then why has NTA continued hiring new Pilots & training Cadets until Nov 08?
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Well as you know Adam I'm a cynical b@stard what with having observed NTA's management 'style' for a number of years but the last time they overcrewed was just before the imposition of the new tax rules that left so many of your colleagues worse off.
I'm sure some will accuse me of being the prophet of doom but could this latest recruitment in the face of at least 10% overcrewing be the sign of another stunt? Interesting times for some.
As for the BH ethical hotline, that was drummed into all of us as a sure sign that Uncle Warren played fair and above board and that all within his organisation would do so too. There are enough stories to the contrary but if they are saying they'll only undergo scrutiny when it suits them it neither bodes well nor presents much of a public image.
I'm sure some will accuse me of being the prophet of doom but could this latest recruitment in the face of at least 10% overcrewing be the sign of another stunt? Interesting times for some.
As for the BH ethical hotline, that was drummed into all of us as a sure sign that Uncle Warren played fair and above board and that all within his organisation would do so too. There are enough stories to the contrary but if they are saying they'll only undergo scrutiny when it suits them it neither bodes well nor presents much of a public image.
Apache for HEMS - Strafe those Survivors!
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I suggest a quick glance at todays FT companies and markets front page. BH top the list of the worlds most cash rich companies ($ 106.1 Bn). The next 3 are chinese banks, followed by exxon mobile - which has a quarter of the net cash of BH. The figures are the FTs own analysis
Flinty, I know that you have reason to feel the way you do about NTA, and you never did me any harm (quite the contrary).
As you can see, I do not often post, but Holyman seems to have a particular gripe with NTA ( I was interested, so I checked, all but one of his posts have been to make negative comments about NTA). Now NTA is not perfect, I am sure Flintstone and Adam can fill in the gaps there, but it is a whole lot better than some of the pictures that are being painted of it.
The comments from Holyman seem more like an attempt to rubbish the competition than add anything of value. I think next year is going to be tough for everyone in the aviation business, I just hope we ALL come through it ok.
Bad mouthing companies should really be left to people who get the stick shaker going on the approach - unless you are one and the same of course?
Flinty, I know that you have reason to feel the way you do about NTA, and you never did me any harm (quite the contrary).
As you can see, I do not often post, but Holyman seems to have a particular gripe with NTA ( I was interested, so I checked, all but one of his posts have been to make negative comments about NTA). Now NTA is not perfect, I am sure Flintstone and Adam can fill in the gaps there, but it is a whole lot better than some of the pictures that are being painted of it.
The comments from Holyman seem more like an attempt to rubbish the competition than add anything of value. I think next year is going to be tough for everyone in the aviation business, I just hope we ALL come through it ok.
Bad mouthing companies should really be left to people who get the stick shaker going on the approach - unless you are one and the same of course?
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keepin it in trim
Honestly, I've no agenda as far as NJE are concerned. On the whole the company was good for me, it just got ugly when after six years someone's ego led them to pick a fight which ultimately cost the company money (to buy me off), him his management position and oh yeah, my job there
I'm a long way down the road though and genuinely happier. As Adam might say in one of his more spiritual moments. it's all karma.
It's a bit like watching an ant farm in a glass box. My friends who are still there are far enough up the seniority list not to be affected by anything other than massive lay-offs so without wishing to sound callous whatever happens won't bother me. I hope my cynicism proves to be wrong.
Honestly, I've no agenda as far as NJE are concerned. On the whole the company was good for me, it just got ugly when after six years someone's ego led them to pick a fight which ultimately cost the company money (to buy me off), him his management position and oh yeah, my job there
I'm a long way down the road though and genuinely happier. As Adam might say in one of his more spiritual moments. it's all karma.It's a bit like watching an ant farm in a glass box. My friends who are still there are far enough up the seniority list not to be affected by anything other than massive lay-offs so without wishing to sound callous whatever happens won't bother me. I hope my cynicism proves to be wrong.
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Well said Keep it in trim. I've been watching this post for a while now and was going to have a go at Holyman earlier but he CLEARLY has no idea what he's talking about.
Holyman you have been challenged a number of times by NJE employees in the past and you won't stay and fight your corner. After a while it becomes boring and people start to think (as i'm sure they do now) that you may have a chip on your shoulder.
Holyman you have been challenged a number of times by NJE employees in the past and you won't stay and fight your corner. After a while it becomes boring and people start to think (as i'm sure they do now) that you may have a chip on your shoulder.
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@ in trim and @ smeagels b.
Got you going guys, or not ? Defend my ground...why, only observing about the company which has the best package in the industry and a leader as well.
My posts are a brainfarth ? Talked about seniority in the past, and you might not like but it is an issue, actually gave you an table last year with my predictions for an upgrade or transfer to a large aircraft.......We will see in a couple of years how true this was.
Buffet making a huge bet with derivates : fact. He loosing money by the billions : fact. Even the SEC have asked him to explain before end of march next year how he is going to handle this derivates bet, because they are worried as well.
My post about predictin that something will change in the commercial department (london), just give me 3 months guys, info is good and it will happen.
The overcrewing, and the OECD correction ? Something gotta give boys, be it let go of 10% crewmembers or everybody a pay cut is for management the same.
This thread actually presented something nice, the Berkshire policy is not applicable to NTA, can you imagine ?
So, don't feel offended so easily, join me in making this company better.
And never land with the stickshaker ;-) if you did there's allways a job to find somewhere in the republic....
Got you going guys, or not ? Defend my ground...why, only observing about the company which has the best package in the industry and a leader as well.
My posts are a brainfarth ? Talked about seniority in the past, and you might not like but it is an issue, actually gave you an table last year with my predictions for an upgrade or transfer to a large aircraft.......We will see in a couple of years how true this was.
Buffet making a huge bet with derivates : fact. He loosing money by the billions : fact. Even the SEC have asked him to explain before end of march next year how he is going to handle this derivates bet, because they are worried as well.
My post about predictin that something will change in the commercial department (london), just give me 3 months guys, info is good and it will happen.
The overcrewing, and the OECD correction ? Something gotta give boys, be it let go of 10% crewmembers or everybody a pay cut is for management the same.
This thread actually presented something nice, the Berkshire policy is not applicable to NTA, can you imagine ?
So, don't feel offended so easily, join me in making this company better.
And never land with the stickshaker ;-) if you did there's allways a job to find somewhere in the republic....
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Holyman you need to go and do some research. The derivatives contracts placed BH do not pay a penny on for 11 years, and after that they have 35 billion liability IF a 35 BILLION dollar event occurs. In the meantime he has 5 billion to invest for the next 11 years without putting any cash in. These are facts. So why didn't you name the thread Netjets danger in 2019? I'll tell you why, because you enjoy slagging netjets off, the search function is a very handy tool (pat on back required pls mods!).
Whats your take on this then?
Warren Buffett stake in Goldman Sachs earns $783 million return - Times Online
He is bailing out banks for heaven sake, and making a tidy sum in the process, didn't mention that though did you. BH may well be making some losses, but they are also making profits AND have 106 BILLION CASH in the bank, a position which many companies around the world would love to be in.
Your seniority posting over a year ago was complete rubbish by the way.
Whats your take on this then?
Warren Buffett stake in Goldman Sachs earns $783 million return - Times Online
He is bailing out banks for heaven sake, and making a tidy sum in the process, didn't mention that though did you. BH may well be making some losses, but they are also making profits AND have 106 BILLION CASH in the bank, a position which many companies around the world would love to be in.
Your seniority posting over a year ago was complete rubbish by the way.
Last edited by Smeagels Boyfriend; 31st Dec 2008 at 14:27.
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So going by the last half dozen or so posts on this subject.............
Q: When is NTA/NJE part of Berkshire Hathaway and when is it not?
A: It is part of BH when it wants to be bailed out financially and it's not part of BH when its ethics come into question.
That about sum it up?
PS. Of course if Uncle Warren decides they have to stand on their own two feet this spat about his derivatives gamble will be moot and they'll have to weather the next year or two on their wits.
Q: When is NTA/NJE part of Berkshire Hathaway and when is it not?
A: It is part of BH when it wants to be bailed out financially and it's not part of BH when its ethics come into question.
That about sum it up?
PS. Of course if Uncle Warren decides they have to stand on their own two feet this spat about his derivatives gamble will be moot and they'll have to weather the next year or two on their wits.
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I may be wrong, but BH doesn't actually 'own' or 'run' that many companies. They just hold huge shares in companies. That means they can influence the way the companies are run by using the shareholders meetings etc. For example, BH and WB do not 'own' Coca-Cola, but hold a large percentage of stock. This means that they can influence things, like big changes in portfolio, but not day to day running. And, as such these companies are run by their own management. They do lay off people - all the time. Every business is constantly evolving and has to react to changing conditions. A company that cannot lay people off is doomed to collapse eventually. Look at the Alitalia model. The unions are so strong that they will destroy the company and have everyone loose their jobs before allowing some pruning when required.
I am not saying that NJ (Europe or US) will not lay off (or indeed need to lay off) people, but if it has to... then it has to. But it would be good to know how they would do it if they had to. Like Last in first out, or whatever.
There are some posts in this thread which seem to just be muck stirring (as usual). I do believe that everyone has been affected by the recent turn of events. NetJets and other operators. I believe that NJ can and will survive, but needs to tighten belts. Do I personally think it is a great time to respray 120 aircraft... possibly not... Do I think it is necessary to change our Uniforms? Possibly not. But it is a good time to focus on customer retention, (Being actioned) it is a good time to get people training - (Just got the new on-line meet and greet e-learning). It really is a good time to communicate.
Back to the point. People outside NJ will speculate and ask questions. People inside NJ will know that things are being done to weather the storm. It might be a bumpy ride for a while, but we will be in a better ship than some.
I am not saying that NJ (Europe or US) will not lay off (or indeed need to lay off) people, but if it has to... then it has to. But it would be good to know how they would do it if they had to. Like Last in first out, or whatever.
There are some posts in this thread which seem to just be muck stirring (as usual). I do believe that everyone has been affected by the recent turn of events. NetJets and other operators. I believe that NJ can and will survive, but needs to tighten belts. Do I personally think it is a great time to respray 120 aircraft... possibly not... Do I think it is necessary to change our Uniforms? Possibly not. But it is a good time to focus on customer retention, (Being actioned) it is a good time to get people training - (Just got the new on-line meet and greet e-learning). It really is a good time to communicate.
Back to the point. People outside NJ will speculate and ask questions. People inside NJ will know that things are being done to weather the storm. It might be a bumpy ride for a while, but we will be in a better ship than some.
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Best Wishes to all for 2009
Your point is well made SF, however there is a critism phobia at NetJets which may not serve the company. We are in a dichotomy:
-1) NSM say that they want parcipative management
-2) we have a profoundly autocratic (unspoken/unacknowledged) philosphy which comes from the US (well demonstrated when DM was CEO).
The two do not mix & communication is the casualty.
As we have seen with recent world events including bank failures & stock market scams of epic proportions: -the major institutions are unable to ethically regulate themselves; -why should NetJets be different?
Suppressing the voices of dissent is equivelent to gluing the circuit breakers to ensure no system failure occours. It has been proved by recent events to be an untenable policy: -Why castigate dissent?
Agreed about the effect of Unions who have too much power like in Alitalia: -we do need to work together, but this requires a BALANCE of power & this is not where we are now.
Yes NSM may need to take some tough measures. Let's make sure together that this is done with transparency, accountability, responsibility & equitiability. How do we obtain this?
Let it be clear that, (like the bankers & stockbrokers), those who are awarded the bonuses are also those who will be publically held to account for their decisions when those decisions affect the lives of thousands of employees .
-1) NSM say that they want parcipative management
-2) we have a profoundly autocratic (unspoken/unacknowledged) philosphy which comes from the US (well demonstrated when DM was CEO).
The two do not mix & communication is the casualty.
As we have seen with recent world events including bank failures & stock market scams of epic proportions: -the major institutions are unable to ethically regulate themselves; -why should NetJets be different?
Suppressing the voices of dissent is equivelent to gluing the circuit breakers to ensure no system failure occours. It has been proved by recent events to be an untenable policy: -Why castigate dissent?
Agreed about the effect of Unions who have too much power like in Alitalia: -we do need to work together, but this requires a BALANCE of power & this is not where we are now.
Yes NSM may need to take some tough measures. Let's make sure together that this is done with transparency, accountability, responsibility & equitiability. How do we obtain this?
Let it be clear that, (like the bankers & stockbrokers), those who are awarded the bonuses are also those who will be publically held to account for their decisions when those decisions affect the lives of thousands of employees .
Last edited by adam firth; 1st Jan 2009 at 10:38.