CJ2 pitch power settings
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CJ2 pitch power settings
Hi guys,
Couldn't find anything on this in other threads, so to any CJ2 drivers out there :
Could you help me out and tell me some common pitch power settings for the CJ2 , eg : 160 kts on the ils, ils at vref +5 , straight and level at different speeds at low altitude ,medium altitude and cruise altitude ?
Any info at all gratefully received.
Cheers,
ST
Couldn't find anything on this in other threads, so to any CJ2 drivers out there :
Could you help me out and tell me some common pitch power settings for the CJ2 , eg : 160 kts on the ils, ils at vref +5 , straight and level at different speeds at low altitude ,medium altitude and cruise altitude ?
Any info at all gratefully received.
Cheers,
ST
Well, I disagree somewhat with the previous poster. All airplanes can (and should, to some extend) be flown by numbers. It is a good idea to know what performace you can expect from a certain pitch and power setting. Unreliable airsped indication is one such example and Boeing have a pitch/power table in the respective checklist. The only Citation I have flown is the 550B which has different engines etc. but if you put N1 at around 55% it would give you a nice decelleration below Vfe in level flight to extend first notch of flap, once on the glide, gear down and landing flap would have you just above Vref at around 0 degrees pitch on a 3 degree glide. I am sure you can find a corrsponding power setting on the 525 that allows you to pretty much leave the power levers alone (in a perfect world).
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Giving Numbers is all well and good. But you end up with FO's who can not adapt with non standard situations!
If your fast (Trend arrow or not) reduce power, if slow more power!!!
I agree setting 60% ish does work on straight in vectored ILS approaches, but you need a bit more Pilot Skill then that!!!
I remember an old instructor friend of mine who taught circuits by, turn left at that house, downwind at the river , then set 1700 Rpm and then , turn at the ..........
All well and good at that airfield, but his students could not cope at any other location.
Where as if he taught by reference to the Runway, well that would be a thing!!
Its a often under used instrument, this window thing!!!
If your fast (Trend arrow or not) reduce power, if slow more power!!!
I agree setting 60% ish does work on straight in vectored ILS approaches, but you need a bit more Pilot Skill then that!!!
I remember an old instructor friend of mine who taught circuits by, turn left at that house, downwind at the river , then set 1700 Rpm and then , turn at the ..........
All well and good at that airfield, but his students could not cope at any other location.
Where as if he taught by reference to the Runway, well that would be a thing!!
Its a often under used instrument, this window thing!!!
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Sir Thomas - although the earlier answers may have seemed a bit flippant compared to what you were expecting, there is a considerable element of truth to them. That really is how you fly a CJ (and yes, I have also flown other types where I carefully memorised the power and pitch numbers).
The CJ's with the Proline screens have the incredibly useful magenta speed trend line on the tapes, and with practice you will learn to manage the trend line with throttle, rather than flying constant speed. This is especially important at larger airports where the CJ's low V speeds would be considered a problem if you flew down the ILS at Vapp!
Having said that, for those few situations when you are not flying one of (1) max climb power, (2) max cruise power, or (3) max power that avoids the barber pole
, the other two power settings used by CJ pilots are (1) 70% N1, which is a general purpose "clean, but not going flat out" power setting, and (2) 60% N1, which is "I'm slowing down on the approach".
These are ballpark settings though, and I would have to say that once I've started power reduction on the descent, all the way to touchdown, on most flights I don't look at the N1 gauges at all. (But for 733driver - yes I do move the throttles; the CJ's start clean and fast on initial approach, and end up slow and draggy for touchdown - each configuration change therefore also involves a power change, usually adding power, but that change is made by looking at the ASI tape, not the N1 gauge).
The CJ's with the Proline screens have the incredibly useful magenta speed trend line on the tapes, and with practice you will learn to manage the trend line with throttle, rather than flying constant speed. This is especially important at larger airports where the CJ's low V speeds would be considered a problem if you flew down the ILS at Vapp!
Having said that, for those few situations when you are not flying one of (1) max climb power, (2) max cruise power, or (3) max power that avoids the barber pole
, the other two power settings used by CJ pilots are (1) 70% N1, which is a general purpose "clean, but not going flat out" power setting, and (2) 60% N1, which is "I'm slowing down on the approach".These are ballpark settings though, and I would have to say that once I've started power reduction on the descent, all the way to touchdown, on most flights I don't look at the N1 gauges at all. (But for 733driver - yes I do move the throttles; the CJ's start clean and fast on initial approach, and end up slow and draggy for touchdown - each configuration change therefore also involves a power change, usually adding power, but that change is made by looking at the ASI tape, not the N1 gauge).
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some slightly wierd answers on here so far..
CJ2, if you set 61 still wind and about 63 in a reasonable wind (lower descent rate), with one stage of flap and the landing gear you will hold 160kts. This lets you select landing flap at any time. If you do this at 3 miles your speed will reduce in a stable and predictable way to ref plus about 10 at the threshold. With a bit of practice you can tweak the power setting at 6 miles with the gear down and one stage of flap and not touch the throttles again except to close them. My own feelings (and they are entirely personal) that first stage of flap at 9 miles, gear down as the aircraft pitches for the top of descent (not half dot fly up), and landing flap at 3 miles with the above power settings gives a predictable and stable approach. If I lost the ADC and the ports were iced up those would be the power settings I would use.
Straight and level settings are a bit meaningless because you are limited to 250kts low level (I think that is something like 87 at high weights) and above FL300 or so you can set max chat (102-103) and that will leave you close to 0.72.
If you want any more help please let me know. [email protected]
CJ2, if you set 61 still wind and about 63 in a reasonable wind (lower descent rate), with one stage of flap and the landing gear you will hold 160kts. This lets you select landing flap at any time. If you do this at 3 miles your speed will reduce in a stable and predictable way to ref plus about 10 at the threshold. With a bit of practice you can tweak the power setting at 6 miles with the gear down and one stage of flap and not touch the throttles again except to close them. My own feelings (and they are entirely personal) that first stage of flap at 9 miles, gear down as the aircraft pitches for the top of descent (not half dot fly up), and landing flap at 3 miles with the above power settings gives a predictable and stable approach. If I lost the ADC and the ports were iced up those would be the power settings I would use.
Straight and level settings are a bit meaningless because you are limited to 250kts low level (I think that is something like 87 at high weights) and above FL300 or so you can set max chat (102-103) and that will leave you close to 0.72.
If you want any more help please let me know. [email protected]
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cheers
Guys,
Thank you all for your answers. Some usefull stuff there that I am sure will help me out.
While I like having the ballpark figures in my head some of you provided, I suppose I will prep myself mentally for more of a light aircraft feel then I am used to. More fun to fly anyway!
Cheers ,
ST
Thank you all for your answers. Some usefull stuff there that I am sure will help me out.
While I like having the ballpark figures in my head some of you provided, I suppose I will prep myself mentally for more of a light aircraft feel then I am used to. More fun to fly anyway!
Cheers ,
ST
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Power + Attitude = Performance, Its true in all aircraft. We get a bit lazy these days with modern aircraft like the new CJs because you have trend vectors and you fly on autopilot 99.72 % of the time.
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Hmmm, first I ought to point out that the equation might more properly be stated:
(Power + Attitude) - Configuration = Performance
Some pilots like to have numbers to fly by; on one of my types, they like to start with 63 %N1, subtract .5% for each tonne below MLW, add 1% for each 3 kts of headwind, and so on... I don't. I've always been a 'look out of the window' or 'look at the instruments' sort of bloke, and that highly theoretical teaching never got me anywhere. However, there are people who like it, and what Sir Thomas needs is someone who like him, has a penchant for mental arithmetic rather than flying, and thus can answer his question. The problem is, that the CJ2 is such a simple aircraft to fly, that you will never need that theoretical approach. It's got little fans that accelerate well, especially at approach thrust settings, and a straight wing.
First time I flew one, I petrified the poor examiner, who had never seen anyone at Vapp at 1000 ft before!
Pole it round the sky like a piston twin, and learn it as you go along, would be my advice! Most importantly, have fun!
(Power + Attitude) - Configuration = Performance
Some pilots like to have numbers to fly by; on one of my types, they like to start with 63 %N1, subtract .5% for each tonne below MLW, add 1% for each 3 kts of headwind, and so on... I don't. I've always been a 'look out of the window' or 'look at the instruments' sort of bloke, and that highly theoretical teaching never got me anywhere. However, there are people who like it, and what Sir Thomas needs is someone who like him, has a penchant for mental arithmetic rather than flying, and thus can answer his question. The problem is, that the CJ2 is such a simple aircraft to fly, that you will never need that theoretical approach. It's got little fans that accelerate well, especially at approach thrust settings, and a straight wing.
First time I flew one, I petrified the poor examiner, who had never seen anyone at Vapp at 1000 ft before!
Pole it round the sky like a piston twin, and learn it as you go along, would be my advice! Most importantly, have fun!
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look out the window
Zorst,
Whilst I am a big fan of just flying the damn things, and certainly no mathematical genius, I did feel some ballpark figures were usefull for a simcheck on an aircraft you have
a) never flown before ,and
b) whose weight category you have no experience in .
You see, I too think people should be able to just adjust to whatever the situation demands. However I don't go quite as far as to think one should be able to just jump in an unknown aircraft and fly a profile in IMC to reasonably high standard without any settings in your head at all. Perhaps that is slightly skewed reasoning in your opinion, and I certainly wouldn't deny that it isn't completely straightforward, but when it comes to trying to get a job (and as such lifestyle) that you have wanted very much for a very long time , one endeavors to be as well prepared as possible . Remember the 7P's. I'm sure that's applicable here somewhere.
In a nutshell, I agree with just looking out the window, but not for a simcheck.
Thank you sincerely for your reply.
ST
Whilst I am a big fan of just flying the damn things, and certainly no mathematical genius, I did feel some ballpark figures were usefull for a simcheck on an aircraft you have
a) never flown before ,and
b) whose weight category you have no experience in .
You see, I too think people should be able to just adjust to whatever the situation demands. However I don't go quite as far as to think one should be able to just jump in an unknown aircraft and fly a profile in IMC to reasonably high standard without any settings in your head at all. Perhaps that is slightly skewed reasoning in your opinion, and I certainly wouldn't deny that it isn't completely straightforward, but when it comes to trying to get a job (and as such lifestyle) that you have wanted very much for a very long time , one endeavors to be as well prepared as possible . Remember the 7P's. I'm sure that's applicable here somewhere.
In a nutshell, I agree with just looking out the window, but not for a simcheck.
Thank you sincerely for your reply.
ST
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Aaah, now that we understand the question, as it were...
The guy watching you won't want perfect accuracy. He'll want a competent, rounded, aware, and professional style in the simulator. He'll want to know four things:
Would I let my family fly in this man's aeroplane?
Would I look forward to a few days down route with this man?
Can this man learn be taught to fly a new type of aircraft?
Will this man be an asset to the company?
The way you've put your question here indicates you're already heading in the right direction, so best of luck, and enjoy the sim - it'll be fun!
The guy watching you won't want perfect accuracy. He'll want a competent, rounded, aware, and professional style in the simulator. He'll want to know four things:
Would I let my family fly in this man's aeroplane?
Would I look forward to a few days down route with this man?
Can this man learn be taught to fly a new type of aircraft?
Will this man be an asset to the company?
The way you've put your question here indicates you're already heading in the right direction, so best of luck, and enjoy the sim - it'll be fun!
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this aircraft is easier to fly than our DA42..you only need common sense...almost every N1 would be ok as long as you are 6 sec in front
).....+another 6 sec offered by Uncle Collins
).....+another 6 sec offered by Uncle Collins
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Sir thomas
Not sure what sort of heavy iron you have been flying in the past, but a light CJ like all the citations can be very lively.
If I was the sim checker I'd be making sure you had 1/2 tank of gas, just to prove the point that although small in stature they can certainly make a fairly large hole in the sky. MCT will give you 4.5-5000fpm more so if you are trying to keep the speed checked.
For the profile on departure and to maintain a prudent 180 knts I would come straight back on T/O power to 60-70 percent and leave it there all the way round.
On the excel 60% at mid weights would give 2000fpm and 250knts!
if they want to see stalls and steep turns 60% ish will give you 200knts clean, go cross pointer and keep the bottom wing bar on the horizon line (its about 4-5 deg up.
Also if they are making you fly some sort of Departure - cruise - arrival scenario, once level just set total first hour fuel flow (ask at the brief what the figure is) and on most straight wing citations that will give you barbers pole less 5-10knts e.g. C550 Bravo 1300lbs first hour set 650 per side and it will just accelerate giving you time to get used to the aircraft, this works up to transition.
The set 60% at FAF and add drag arriving at he threshold at VREF +5 is a very neat trick and great on the line especially for visuals but wont gain you any fans in the sim, its considered unstable. Best nominate say 120knts fully configured until say 2 miles and announce/reduce back to VREF + 5 to keep the guy in the back happy. On the Type training / LST they will have you back at around 100ish knts inside of the FAF - can be a bit unnerving for airline chaps.
There are a lot of these flown single crew, see if you can scrounge a trip in the RHS somewhere.....
Not sure what sort of heavy iron you have been flying in the past, but a light CJ like all the citations can be very lively.
If I was the sim checker I'd be making sure you had 1/2 tank of gas, just to prove the point that although small in stature they can certainly make a fairly large hole in the sky. MCT will give you 4.5-5000fpm more so if you are trying to keep the speed checked.
For the profile on departure and to maintain a prudent 180 knts I would come straight back on T/O power to 60-70 percent and leave it there all the way round.
On the excel 60% at mid weights would give 2000fpm and 250knts!
if they want to see stalls and steep turns 60% ish will give you 200knts clean, go cross pointer and keep the bottom wing bar on the horizon line (its about 4-5 deg up.
Also if they are making you fly some sort of Departure - cruise - arrival scenario, once level just set total first hour fuel flow (ask at the brief what the figure is) and on most straight wing citations that will give you barbers pole less 5-10knts e.g. C550 Bravo 1300lbs first hour set 650 per side and it will just accelerate giving you time to get used to the aircraft, this works up to transition.
The set 60% at FAF and add drag arriving at he threshold at VREF +5 is a very neat trick and great on the line especially for visuals but wont gain you any fans in the sim, its considered unstable. Best nominate say 120knts fully configured until say 2 miles and announce/reduce back to VREF + 5 to keep the guy in the back happy. On the Type training / LST they will have you back at around 100ish knts inside of the FAF - can be a bit unnerving for airline chaps.
There are a lot of these flown single crew, see if you can scrounge a trip in the RHS somewhere.....
