small jet down in London
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: 'nam..................(Cheltenham).
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by richatom
AAIB can solicit that breadth of voluntary contribution from its limited field of experts
Now that's priceless.
.......
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: somewhere warm
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can jet engines run on AVGAS, I know the PT6 can run on AVGAS for 150hr between overhauls. And looking at the flight manual nothing changes apart from the fact fuel pumps must be on at all times. No idea if this is the same for a jet again?
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Down South
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Single engine performance.
Apologies if this has already been asked but as one not familiar with the type, any ideas why they couldn't fly a circuit on the one remaining engine? I've not seen speculation that both were affected & as a public transport a/c it should have been capable in theory.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Some sunny place with good wine and good sailing
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
richatom,
No, not saying that at all. I am sure they can get access to any external expert field they wish too (and no doubt at a price too). My point was that their in-house expertise, although very high, is nevertheless limited (that answers scratch pad too).
I wouldn't be at all surprised if they glance at these sorts of threads occasionally, to see if anybody has thrown something useful into the pot. Accident investigation can often involve following a hunch to at least exclude it, and there were several interesting suggestions on the 777 thread, particularly from chemists and fuel experts, that could well have merited further investigation if they hadn't already investigated and excluded it themselves.
Collaborative discussion groups can be a very useful tool in all forms of research, and so I am sure they can also be useful in accident investigation.
But anyway, we are digressing from my original point, that there is absolutely no harm whatsoever in contributors on here speculating as to the cause of an accident.
Are you seriously saying either that professional investigators don't know where to get expert input, or don't bother to do so?
Do you believe that they waste time trawling through pages of low brow 'discussion' in hope of finding an answer?
Collaborative discussion groups can be a very useful tool in all forms of research, and so I am sure they can also be useful in accident investigation.
But anyway, we are digressing from my original point, that there is absolutely no harm whatsoever in contributors on here speculating as to the cause of an accident.
Guest
Posts: n/a
there is absolutely no harm whatsoever in contributors on here speculating as to the cause of an accident.
Providing those are reasonable speculations and not barmpot theories along the lines of some of those in the BA/777 thread. Something in the order of 200 posts had to be deleted from that one.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Some sunny place with good wine and good sailing
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Providing those are reasonable speculations and not barmpot theories along the lines of some of those in the BA/777 thread. Something in the order of 200 posts had to be deleted from that one.
Last edited by richatom; 10th Apr 2008 at 11:34.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Accepting that it's reasonable to ask questions 
The major difference between the AAIB and internet forums is that they WAIT until they have reviewed ALL the available FACTS, before commenting.
Agree we'd all do well to learn from previous incidents, but strangely these lengthy '9 o'clock jury' opinion threads only ever happen after the incident, not in any great detail when the AAIB report is released
Accept it's horses for courses, but I'd rather discuss the facts than speculate (especially as this incident brings the number of friends I've 'lost' to aviation in 12 month to 2
)
The major difference between the AAIB and internet forums is that they WAIT until they have reviewed ALL the available FACTS, before commenting.
Agree we'd all do well to learn from previous incidents, but strangely these lengthy '9 o'clock jury' opinion threads only ever happen after the incident, not in any great detail when the AAIB report is released
Accept it's horses for courses, but I'd rather discuss the facts than speculate (especially as this incident brings the number of friends I've 'lost' to aviation in 12 month to 2
)
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: USA (PA)
Age: 47
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Southernboy:
Yes, of course you can fly the CE-500 single engine - as a matter of fact, both pilots have to demonstrate proficiency to react appropriately to an engine failure on takeoff (for the layman: after passing a certain speed you HAVE to take it into the air - no matter if the engine vibrates or if it just exploded and/or fell off).
I found the single engine climb performance to be reasonably well (up to 1000ft/min)!
Certainly, how you react when the sh** hits the fan in reality could be quite different than under simulated conditions, I guess.
I was even taught to leave the levers alone until I actually have time to decide which engine is the one that causes trouble and what actions to take (first: "fly the airplane!"). Looking at the highly UN-sophisticated systems on this airplane, there are no hydraulics, no computers or electronics that could prevent the aircraft from flying; or that could be shattered from an catastrophic engine failure (except maybe the fuel lines on the other side of the fuselage).
Apologies if this has already been asked but as one not familiar with the type, any ideas why they couldn't fly a circuit on the one remaining engine? I've not seen speculation that both were affected & as a public transport a/c it should have been capable in theory.
I found the single engine climb performance to be reasonably well (up to 1000ft/min)!
Certainly, how you react when the sh** hits the fan in reality could be quite different than under simulated conditions, I guess.
I was even taught to leave the levers alone until I actually have time to decide which engine is the one that causes trouble and what actions to take (first: "fly the airplane!"). Looking at the highly UN-sophisticated systems on this airplane, there are no hydraulics, no computers or electronics that could prevent the aircraft from flying; or that could be shattered from an catastrophic engine failure (except maybe the fuel lines on the other side of the fuselage).
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Some sunny place with good wine and good sailing
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As you have experience on type, how easy is it to detect which engine has failed? With both engines close to the aircraft centre-line, I would imagine that yaw and roll towards the failing engine are not that marked. And how easy would it be to read the engine instruments in a heavily vibrating cockpit?
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Some sunny place with good wine and good sailing
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The major difference between the AAIB and internet forums is that they WAIT until they have reviewed ALL the available FACTS, before commenting.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In a previous role I have been an accident investigator with vehicles.
You'd start an investigation by gaining the facts - physical evidence and first hand accounts. Then using the experience and expertise you mention you'd consider the possible causes. No point in considering the causes without the evidence! An approach with an open mind I would suggest being the best. Although in many cases, with the evidence the actual cause was clearly evident.
I've no doubt that AAIB will discuss investigations within the AAIB. Why not, they are all experienced, highly trained professionals.
Who's said this incident is mystifying? What this thread lacks are the actual FACTS
What it has is speculation
Things would have to be really bad to rely upon an open forum for divine intervention.
Who says the seemingly knowledgeable post comes from a real experienced engineer?
9 o'clock juries have their place, open forums being one of them. A little knowledge IS a dangerous thing. As I've suggested, once the AAIB report is released the threads never get the same detailed explanations from the gathered masses
You remain free to gain your 'knowledge' from whatever sources you choose, as do I (and others).
As stated I'd rather know the REAL reason my friend has died (or atleast the best educated guess from an acknowledged expert in possession of all the facts)
You'd start an investigation by gaining the facts - physical evidence and first hand accounts. Then using the experience and expertise you mention you'd consider the possible causes. No point in considering the causes without the evidence! An approach with an open mind I would suggest being the best. Although in many cases, with the evidence the actual cause was clearly evident.
I've no doubt that AAIB will discuss investigations within the AAIB. Why not, they are all experienced, highly trained professionals.
Who's said this incident is mystifying? What this thread lacks are the actual FACTS
What it has is speculation Things would have to be really bad to rely upon an open forum for divine intervention.
Who says the seemingly knowledgeable post comes from a real experienced engineer?
9 o'clock juries have their place, open forums being one of them. A little knowledge IS a dangerous thing. As I've suggested, once the AAIB report is released the threads never get the same detailed explanations from the gathered masses
You remain free to gain your 'knowledge' from whatever sources you choose, as do I (and others).
As stated I'd rather know the REAL reason my friend has died (or atleast the best educated guess from an acknowledged expert in possession of all the facts)
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: USA (PA)
Age: 47
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As you have experience on type, how easy is it to detect which engine has failed? With both engines close to the aircraft centre-line, I would imagine that yaw and roll towards the failing engine are not that marked. And how easy would it be to read the engine instruments in a heavily vibrating cockpit?
I am lacking actual experience of an emergency of that dimension and I certainly can only hope that the accident investigation comes up with an explanation to prevent future accidents - should it be determined that somehow all control surfaces became unusuable and/or both engines suddenly disintegrate due to a structual, design issue or maintenance problem of some kind.
ATTENTION SPECULATION:
If all other factors can be excluded, than the bird-strike springs to mind - like in march, the suspected one in Oklahoma (on the same type! what would be the ods?)... Unfortunately that very accident shows the limits of post accident investigation: since the aircraft descended vertical into the ground, who can tell afterwards if the pilot was killed by the initial bird strike (I heard birds tend to split in two or more parts - one goes through the windshield and the other part into the engine
)?(slight thread creep, I apologize)
...oh btw, my take on speculation:
Of course it is not appropriate to insult anybody or attack others, but if the speculation is dealt with in a professional manner, it can be beneficial for many (of course only if there are people out there who now what they are talking about - and where do you find 'em when not here?).
I remember a very long thread over in the Rotorheads section regarding the Dolphin crash in the north sea in december 2006 where unfortunately so many people (incl. two highly experienced pilots) where fataly injured.
Beeing a rotorhead by trade, just by reading about the possible problems they might have ran into that night, helped me a great deal understanding and I learned a lot how CRM, night flying offshore, SAS/autopilots actually work!
Nobody would have come up with such a scenario or discussion in the first place and to be honest, I never learned about the real cause from the AAIB (its a bit late at night to search for it now) because whe tend to go on and loose interest - more precise: the news media looses interest.
...running for cover...
Edit:
Ok, ok I looked it up
: In the latest special bulletin stating the importance for the oil and gas industry it was deemed appropriate to disseminate the results as soon as possible - that bulletin was issued in January 2007. Nothing since.
"Please let's all ignore that the cause of the accident might have been p**** error (there is probably a ban on that word too); don't speculate about things that might help other people from doing the same mistake(s) and let's wait a couple of years for the final report".
Pardon my sarkasm.
Last edited by Phil77; 12th Apr 2008 at 05:37.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: all over the place
Age: 63
Posts: 514
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am all for speculation and ideas when something happens without an obvious answer. Why people should feel it necessary to criticise someone else's reasoning is beyond me, Oh wait, we are on pprune! any excuse for loud mouth 'holier than thou' thought police to get their word in and dictate the way things should be done. 
Especially the cowardly anonymous ones.
If you disagree with something then give an your adult (look that up) coherent (look that up too) argument (Look that up also as you probably think it means fight).
If I should have the misfortune to be involved in an accident then I give full permission for the cause to be debated to the full whether it be caused by a stall avoiding an alien spacecraft, a radio controlled mouse biting my foot causing me to put the wrong rudder in
or me just f*****g it up.
Especially the cowardly anonymous ones.If you disagree with something then give an your adult (look that up) coherent (look that up too) argument (Look that up also as you probably think it means fight).
If I should have the misfortune to be involved in an accident then I give full permission for the cause to be debated to the full whether it be caused by a stall avoiding an alien spacecraft, a radio controlled mouse biting my foot causing me to put the wrong rudder in
or me just f*****g it up.
