Low-timers in bizjet jobs
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Low-timers in bizjet jobs
Hello fellow aviators,
Happy New Year to you all!!
I have been reading a few threads in the bizjet section, and someone there mentioned it is quite easy for a low-timer to get a job in a bizjet/corporate jet company. My dream is to fly corporate. I have no desire to fly for an airline, but would absolutely love to fly for a bizjet.
I have applied to a few but I think it would be good if some nice folks out here in PPrune could perhaps tell me which companies are actually looking for co-pilots/first officers and which are considering low-timers.
Cheers,
CPAM00
Happy New Year to you all!!
I have been reading a few threads in the bizjet section, and someone there mentioned it is quite easy for a low-timer to get a job in a bizjet/corporate jet company. My dream is to fly corporate. I have no desire to fly for an airline, but would absolutely love to fly for a bizjet.
I have applied to a few but I think it would be good if some nice folks out here in PPrune could perhaps tell me which companies are actually looking for co-pilots/first officers and which are considering low-timers.
Cheers,
CPAM00
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Depends what you call low time. I have not come across to many operators who are actively looking for "low timers" and if they are, they will bond you to the right seat for 2 or 3 years. There are better ways to get into corporate. Good luck
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Its never easy as a low timer getting into corporate flying or any other kind of flying for that matter.
With low time in my opinion to get that ever elusive first job, you really have to know someone, or your CV arrived with impeccable timing just as they were desperate for an F/O
Good Luck and keep sending the CV's as you never know
With low time in my opinion to get that ever elusive first job, you really have to know someone, or your CV arrived with impeccable timing just as they were desperate for an F/O
Good Luck and keep sending the CV's as you never know
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Bearing is correct, and thats exactly what happened to myself, CV at the right place at the right time.
There is one good things to remember about being a low time biz jet pilot though, and thats hours, or the lack of them, during the course of a year. If you work on building about 300 hrs per year and you start at 300TT, its going to take at least 6 years before you are going to get a sniff at the left seat.
It is a geat job and I wouldnt swap it for the world but if you have age on your side it may be a concideration to bite the bullet for a couple of years, get in with a low cost, build some hours and then start looking at the Biz Jets.
Cheers
There is one good things to remember about being a low time biz jet pilot though, and thats hours, or the lack of them, during the course of a year. If you work on building about 300 hrs per year and you start at 300TT, its going to take at least 6 years before you are going to get a sniff at the left seat.
It is a geat job and I wouldnt swap it for the world but if you have age on your side it may be a concideration to bite the bullet for a couple of years, get in with a low cost, build some hours and then start looking at the Biz Jets.
Cheers
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Right place, right time!!! That's about the sum of it. Most typical corporate outfits will require a number of hours. One in particular is looking for 700hrs total plus a couple of hundred on type. 700 isn't a lot but it's the time on type that you need and unless you pay for the rating yourself (not too wise without a job guarantee) you aint gonna find it too easy. This brings me to the budget airline option just mentioned. It's a valid suggestion as i can tell you, trying to build hours in corporate is not easy...especially at this time of year. The problem with the budget carriers is this every increasing business of self sponsored type ratings (SSTR). None of them apart from one will pay anything towards your training and if you do pay there is still no guarantee. Just plug away at sending CVs off as you may get lucky and if all else fails...get your instructors rating...i know a fair few instructors now in corporate!
Good Luck
Good Luck
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Last paragraph from CPTVOR does bear considering carefully.
It applies to jet freight just as much also. Big duty times but not much to log.
Plus side - you'll probably get several winters gaining experience.
Downside - you spend a long time unfreezing ATPL and meeting insurance requirements to change seats irrespective of how good you are. It can be quite chilling to write down the number of years needed on a piece of paper to hit those numbers.
Money may not be an imperative now other than living and, perhaps, paying off loans but life moves on. Suddenly finding yourself with rugrats while having to roll with the salary (un)expectations of the next batch of hungry first jobbers isn't fun.
Rob
It applies to jet freight just as much also. Big duty times but not much to log.
Plus side - you'll probably get several winters gaining experience.
Downside - you spend a long time unfreezing ATPL and meeting insurance requirements to change seats irrespective of how good you are. It can be quite chilling to write down the number of years needed on a piece of paper to hit those numbers.
Money may not be an imperative now other than living and, perhaps, paying off loans but life moves on. Suddenly finding yourself with rugrats while having to roll with the salary (un)expectations of the next batch of hungry first jobbers isn't fun.
Rob
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how about this.
The problem with the low hours thing as people have ready said is that to get to a point where you are earning well could take some time flying 300 hours per year. In the past I have seen low hours pilots instruct at the same time as working for a corporate operator thus accelerating their hours towards command. Have seen people get command of citations which carry a pretty good salary with 1500 hours and only a couple of hundred hours jet, the rest of it piston instructing.
Just a thought, but it is hard work.
The problem with the low hours thing as people have ready said is that to get to a point where you are earning well could take some time flying 300 hours per year. In the past I have seen low hours pilots instruct at the same time as working for a corporate operator thus accelerating their hours towards command. Have seen people get command of citations which carry a pretty good salary with 1500 hours and only a couple of hundred hours jet, the rest of it piston instructing.
Just a thought, but it is hard work.
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low timers
Somebody is looking now for a "low timer" SIC on a CJ2.or 3 out of Niagra New York, saw the ad on planejobs. It would be exactly that, a two year contract, must live in Niagra, and the best part of all is they state" no days off", might be right up you alley.
The price you sometimes pay for being in the category of "low timer".
The price you sometimes pay for being in the category of "low timer".
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There are several pro's and con's involved in selecting a low time pilot for a sic position in a biz jet. The pro is that usually you can bond that person and he/she will be around for a few years thus creating a little stability. The con's are that the low time pilot will increase the premium on your insurance policy. The latter is what most feel is the number one reason you don't hire too many low timers in biz jets. It does happen, just not at a large rate. Also biz jets usually don't fly as much as airline pilots do so you could be sitting in that right seat longer.
You may not want to hear this but this is still the best advice I can give someone starting out early in their career. Get your PIC time built up. Never mind about jets yet, develop your skills and decision making processes as well as judgement. That initial knowledge will go a long way in your lifetime. When you develop more PIC time in twins then turbo props you'll be a quick hire into any organization whether it be business jets or airlines. Get your PIC time and don't sell yourself short by jumping ahead, you'll appreciate the tough decision you're making now in a few years. Good Luck
You may not want to hear this but this is still the best advice I can give someone starting out early in their career. Get your PIC time built up. Never mind about jets yet, develop your skills and decision making processes as well as judgement. That initial knowledge will go a long way in your lifetime. When you develop more PIC time in twins then turbo props you'll be a quick hire into any organization whether it be business jets or airlines. Get your PIC time and don't sell yourself short by jumping ahead, you'll appreciate the tough decision you're making now in a few years. Good Luck
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Everyone is spot on here, right place right time is sadly critical. My current job on the Falcon was exactly that. When the owner I was working for told us the plane was for sale I contacted a guy i had got to know over the previous year because we kept ending up at the same airport and THAT DAY a guy had resigned.
I have done the crappiest of flying jobs, often for little or NO money but was still instructing at CPL/MEIR level so kept the momentum going. Just keep phoning people, keep a big contact list. When you meet people be the sort of person you would want to be stuck with for hrs on end in a metal box.
I was going to pay for my first Hawker rating but at the last minute the company paid it and bonded me two years. (great, that is two yrs guaranteed work)
While you have time, spend it learning stuff that will impress people at interview, keep ahead of the game. Learn about AOC operations, learn how to flight plan in a hurry, learn about customer service.
There is a really good book called 'Operational Flying' by Phil Croucher.
Despite having the Falcon job I am renewing my hawker rating this year just in case.......
If I was starting again despite wanting to be bizjet I would look to the small turboprop operators like Aer Arran. You learn very good flying skills and can move on later.
good luck
I have done the crappiest of flying jobs, often for little or NO money but was still instructing at CPL/MEIR level so kept the momentum going. Just keep phoning people, keep a big contact list. When you meet people be the sort of person you would want to be stuck with for hrs on end in a metal box.
I was going to pay for my first Hawker rating but at the last minute the company paid it and bonded me two years. (great, that is two yrs guaranteed work)
While you have time, spend it learning stuff that will impress people at interview, keep ahead of the game. Learn about AOC operations, learn how to flight plan in a hurry, learn about customer service.
There is a really good book called 'Operational Flying' by Phil Croucher.
Despite having the Falcon job I am renewing my hawker rating this year just in case.......
If I was starting again despite wanting to be bizjet I would look to the small turboprop operators like Aer Arran. You learn very good flying skills and can move on later.
good luck
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someone there mentioned it is quite easy for a low-timer to get a job in a bizjet/corporate jet company.
I agree with everything written here and would add that you also need a bit of luck, but remember you make your own luck.
Here's some Good Luck and I hope you find your dream job soon, don't give up.
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LoL.... its all about contacts and networking and being in right spot at right time. I have never received a job via purely a resume being sent out cold. There is alot of legwork involved and if you are lucky you can strike gold.
Realistically, low-time golden wonders are a dime a dozen out there so its more a question if your personality fits in with the rest of the usually small team. A captain I started flying Citations with told me that the easy bit was teaching me to fly the damn thing (my first job.. CE500 F/O with 350tt) but more importantly could he stand sitting next to me for several hours.
Nothing is impossible, my old company hired a 400 hour newbie as copilot on a Challenger 604.. first jet/multicrew for the guy aswell !
Realistically, low-time golden wonders are a dime a dozen out there so its more a question if your personality fits in with the rest of the usually small team. A captain I started flying Citations with told me that the easy bit was teaching me to fly the damn thing (my first job.. CE500 F/O with 350tt) but more importantly could he stand sitting next to me for several hours.
Nothing is impossible, my old company hired a 400 hour newbie as copilot on a Challenger 604.. first jet/multicrew for the guy aswell !
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He was recommended by somebody else in the company when they where looking for an F/O... the boss liked him and he got thrown onto a course (but had to pay for the rating himself.. which I think is BS)
Proves my point.
My view its a bit much to go from pissing around in a PA28 to flying multicrew longhaul ops/ NAT ops in a IFR hi-alt environment... everything has to be taught these guys... talking in the radio included. So its a big workload for us the captains especially when the company does not care about the training or quality of crew.
Hence I quit.
Proves my point.
My view its a bit much to go from pissing around in a PA28 to flying multicrew longhaul ops/ NAT ops in a IFR hi-alt environment... everything has to be taught these guys... talking in the radio included. So its a big workload for us the captains especially when the company does not care about the training or quality of crew.
Hence I quit.
Last edited by LRdriver II; 22nd Jan 2008 at 18:06.
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Whoah, easy tiger! I suspect there may be more to LRdriver's story. The placing of very inexperienced crew on relatively complex aircraft without proper training support would be a safety issue and possibly good reason to quit.
Let's see what he has to say before pronouncing judgement, eh?
Let's see what he has to say before pronouncing judgement, eh?
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How busy can you be sitting at FL410 on a NAT, surely a good time for a bit of education, I have been under the impression that part of the role of being a Cpt was to nurture and educate an FO sitting next to you.
We all have to start somewhere and who are we meant to learn from? If you except the promotion do you not have to except the responsibility?
Not having a go, just curious???
We all have to start somewhere and who are we meant to learn from? If you except the promotion do you not have to except the responsibility?
Not having a go, just curious???
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I spent 4 years flying for a company that hired low time F/O's. The only reason they did that was to save money. Terrible pay, no time off and a training contract that would break the back of anyone that tried to leave before 12 months.
The only reason a company would hire a low time pilot is $$$$. They are looking for someone to occupy the right seat and that is about it. Anybody who has flown left seat for a part 61 SIC (Jet) check, knows what I am talking about. We used to call it single pilot ops flying with a low time SIC. Seeing the wide eyes and pale complexion of that first takeoff in a jet says it all for the low time SIC. These guy's took 10-20 hours just to catch up with the speed and figure out what ATC was saying.
I can't talk to anywhere but the US, but I recommend instructing to 600hrs, then fly freight till you get the ATP. At that point you are al least eligible for a type, and have built up a good solid base to move to a jet. The only people I have seen with 400hrs in a 604 were relatives of company owners, or the owners themselves.
There a lot of jobs available in the US right now for the low time pilot. About the best I have seen since the late 90's. Getting on at the regionals is the easiest I have ever seen with times so low, I wonder how they get insurance. If you want a job on a corporate jet, you will get it. Just take your time, don't get disappointed, and keep plugging away.
One note of warning however, don't jump from job to job every time the grass looks greener. Employers look closely at your employment history and like to see that you are stable, and not prone to jump.
The only reason a company would hire a low time pilot is $$$$. They are looking for someone to occupy the right seat and that is about it. Anybody who has flown left seat for a part 61 SIC (Jet) check, knows what I am talking about. We used to call it single pilot ops flying with a low time SIC. Seeing the wide eyes and pale complexion of that first takeoff in a jet says it all for the low time SIC. These guy's took 10-20 hours just to catch up with the speed and figure out what ATC was saying.
I can't talk to anywhere but the US, but I recommend instructing to 600hrs, then fly freight till you get the ATP. At that point you are al least eligible for a type, and have built up a good solid base to move to a jet. The only people I have seen with 400hrs in a 604 were relatives of company owners, or the owners themselves.
There a lot of jobs available in the US right now for the low time pilot. About the best I have seen since the late 90's. Getting on at the regionals is the easiest I have ever seen with times so low, I wonder how they get insurance. If you want a job on a corporate jet, you will get it. Just take your time, don't get disappointed, and keep plugging away.
One note of warning however, don't jump from job to job every time the grass looks greener. Employers look closely at your employment history and like to see that you are stable, and not prone to jump.
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LCDRP,
Pprune is mainly a UK forum, here the majority of 73 FO's have 200 hrs...
In the EU, there is no pay difference to speak of between a 300hr FO and a 3000hr FO, who has been instructing for years
Pprune is mainly a UK forum, here the majority of 73 FO's have 200 hrs...
In the EU, there is no pay difference to speak of between a 300hr FO and a 3000hr FO, who has been instructing for years
Last edited by cldrvr; 22nd Jan 2008 at 22:17. Reason: First post and full of typos...