Tips for UUWW
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Caveat. I have a had a few pain killers and/or alcohol before posting this.
Good ol' UUWW...
"expect the arrival you've filed for."
If the runway is obviously different, ask early what you expect, otherwise, you'll find out on downwind which isn't enough time to programme every thing.
Do expect 90 deg cuts, so think ahead and slow down well in advance, even to the extent of gear down on "base". If they've cleared you tio 400M, then expect every thing to happen VERY quickly from there on.
Keep the speed well under control as the ILS ain't what you'd normally get in eg London. Also, brief your offsider to expect a PAR and a lot of radio chatter about "gear down" etc.
Enjoy....
Good ol' UUWW...
"expect the arrival you've filed for."
If the runway is obviously different, ask early what you expect, otherwise, you'll find out on downwind which isn't enough time to programme every thing.
Do expect 90 deg cuts, so think ahead and slow down well in advance, even to the extent of gear down on "base". If they've cleared you tio 400M, then expect every thing to happen VERY quickly from there on.
Keep the speed well under control as the ILS ain't what you'd normally get in eg London. Also, brief your offsider to expect a PAR and a lot of radio chatter about "gear down" etc.
Enjoy....
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RJ71: the "secret" is that russian controllers expect you to intercept the localizer by yourself once they have you on a 90 degrees intercept!
I know it goes against our grain to just line up for an approach whilst receiving vectors and without a formal clearance for approach, but that's the way it is in Russia.
So the normal sequence is this: UUWW controller gives You the 90 degrees intercept on the ILS, then watches what You do, says to himself: "ah, bloody nekulturny westerner, he's not turning in again, when will they learn!!", then gives you (too late) the instruction to turn for final, so that you overshoot! Works every time...
So basically, once you get a vector in Russia within 90 degrees of the inbound course, and you are approaching the LOC, approach clearance can be inferred, and you have to intercept the LOC on your own.
I know it goes against our grain to just line up for an approach whilst receiving vectors and without a formal clearance for approach, but that's the way it is in Russia.
So the normal sequence is this: UUWW controller gives You the 90 degrees intercept on the ILS, then watches what You do, says to himself: "ah, bloody nekulturny westerner, he's not turning in again, when will they learn!!", then gives you (too late) the instruction to turn for final, so that you overshoot! Works every time...
So basically, once you get a vector in Russia within 90 degrees of the inbound course, and you are approaching the LOC, approach clearance can be inferred, and you have to intercept the LOC on your own.
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Have a look at the russian AIP (english version), you will find that ALL approaches are designed the same way, with a 'box' to fly at different altitude. If you are on the approach segment AND on 'RADAR Vectors' It does mean that you have to follow them (sic). Approaching FK or the last one in downwind you have to turn yourself...yes yes it is written...
A little bit different but it works... It is as meaningfull as 'report level 1500 ft checks complete' at NHT...
ENjoy russia, fly the arrival box..
A little bit different but it works... It is as meaningfull as 'report level 1500 ft checks complete' at NHT...
ENjoy russia, fly the arrival box..
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approaches into moscow airports
I totally agree, just turn in otherwise you might endup overhead the Red Square, which is great to view from the air, but not good for your health.
And expect the call on short final "Are you ready to land?"
Have a good one, and Redsnail I hope you didnt wake up with a headache after all the pain killers.
N.
Just corrected a little typo. thx
And expect the call on short final "Are you ready to land?"
Have a good one, and Redsnail I hope you didnt wake up with a headache after all the pain killers.
N.Just corrected a little typo. thx
Last edited by natops; 3rd Oct 2007 at 14:30.
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That is standard for most countries of the old eastern block, even now. If you had a nasty surprise then you should have been briefed on this one. If none was offered did you not think of speaking to a crew that has current Eastern europe experience?
PPRuNe Handmaiden
I've felt better... off to physio to sort my back out after my fall last week...
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Fly MD is correct
Based there, so know the poop.
In the initial descent get DOWN. as early as you are happy with, they will put you in to an orbit if they see you high, even if you are happy, they are not.
DIY, is the answer, get slow, and full config as early as possible, monitor the lead in AFD bearings, and just turn when you think it is time.
Remember the mantra: NOT inside the ring road.
and perhaps: "READY TO LAND", when fully established, and gear down.
and if a missed approach, the climb is very small, so dont firewall the levers.
Enjoy, it is a great place.
last one, ensure cabin diff is down, if a non standard bleed config in use.
Now go and enjoy.
windy
ps take plenty of reserve fuel if Putin is near the airport, you will be delayed.
In the initial descent get DOWN. as early as you are happy with, they will put you in to an orbit if they see you high, even if you are happy, they are not.
DIY, is the answer, get slow, and full config as early as possible, monitor the lead in AFD bearings, and just turn when you think it is time.
Remember the mantra: NOT inside the ring road.
and perhaps: "READY TO LAND", when fully established, and gear down.
and if a missed approach, the climb is very small, so dont firewall the levers.
Enjoy, it is a great place.
last one, ensure cabin diff is down, if a non standard bleed config in use.
Now go and enjoy.
windy
ps take plenty of reserve fuel if Putin is near the airport, you will be delayed.
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I would ike to add
the LOC is non standard width, it is narrower, the GS is not 3 I think 3.5 degrees, your intercept is closer and unless you have a low intercept speed the AP will get very confused and bounce off each side, so consider hand flying the final approach.
Otherwise agree with almost all the above posts.......he is asking for the brief so whats the problem Joe Hunt.
glf
Otherwise agree with almost all the above posts.......he is asking for the brief so whats the problem Joe Hunt.
glf
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Uuww Ils
Be configured flaps approach and gear down on base leg, respect the 180 knot maximum, fire up the old ADF and hold whatever heading you were on when he told you to "Descend 400 meters, turn final and contact tower". Descend to 400 meters on current heading. When your ADF is 10 degrees off the final course, start a 20 to 25 degree bank onto the localizer. Allow for wind corrections and turn the autopilot off.
I get seasick from pilots letting that thing chase the loc. Your autopilot was designed for western parameters, which includes a no more than 30 degree intercept to loc. If you start a turn as soon as he says turn final you may be above the GS by the time you hit the loc. In western terminology he is saying "Maintain present heading, intercept the loc, Cleared for the approach".
I asked a Russian pilot how to do this, and it works very well.
A couple of weeks ago the ILS for 6 was not available (I think for controller amusement purposes). Two NDB approach to minimums, OE-??? ahead of us went missed. We landed, and the OE plane came back for another try. Controller is trying to help out by telling him 200m right of track, 100m left and so forth. OE-??? tells the controller to "Shut Up". I just about cracked up, but you could hear the stress in the guys voice. Maybe more emphasis needs to be put on hand flying and NDB approaches if you are going to Russia?
I get seasick from pilots letting that thing chase the loc. Your autopilot was designed for western parameters, which includes a no more than 30 degree intercept to loc. If you start a turn as soon as he says turn final you may be above the GS by the time you hit the loc. In western terminology he is saying "Maintain present heading, intercept the loc, Cleared for the approach".
I asked a Russian pilot how to do this, and it works very well.
A couple of weeks ago the ILS for 6 was not available (I think for controller amusement purposes). Two NDB approach to minimums, OE-??? ahead of us went missed. We landed, and the OE plane came back for another try. Controller is trying to help out by telling him 200m right of track, 100m left and so forth. OE-??? tells the controller to "Shut Up". I just about cracked up, but you could hear the stress in the guys voice. Maybe more emphasis needs to be put on hand flying and NDB approaches if you are going to Russia?
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Mike Jenvey Not sure if they seem to be varying the instructions to try & make things "simpler" - the last few times I've been there, the Approach controller has given (at the same time), heading turn onto final intercept, descent to final height, ILS clearance for ILS & frequency change to Precision!!
<<<< Maybe more emphasis needs to be put on hand flying and NDB approaches if you are going to Russia? >>>>
Agreed but also (if appropriate for type), maybe more emphasis on flying NPA using FMS/autopilot correctly? Set up properly = very easy.
<<<< Maybe more emphasis needs to be put on hand flying and NDB approaches if you are going to Russia? >>>>
Agreed but also (if appropriate for type), maybe more emphasis on flying NPA using FMS/autopilot correctly? Set up properly = very easy.
Your FMS in no-WGS84 country ? How Easy can it be ? CODDE 2 refer....
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DA50driver,
speaking of which..:
could you be so kind as to help me out on the location
of the descent point in the NDB 06 (or 24, for that purpose), please?
Landed out of the NDB as well and still don't really know...
Cheers
speaking of which..:
could you be so kind as to help me out on the location
of the descent point in the NDB 06 (or 24, for that purpose), please?
Landed out of the NDB as well and still don't really know...
Cheers
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Hand fly the latter stages is the best answer
totally agree DA50 driver.
All in all I think these posts do satify all the needs...
SHUT UP......I wonder just who that was....PM's always welcome.
The 2 ADF is a lost art.
glf
All in all I think these posts do satify all the needs...
SHUT UP......I wonder just who that was....PM's always welcome.
The 2 ADF is a lost art.
glf
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Slopes
02= 2.83 06= 2.67 20= 2.83 24= 3.00
Last time I did a 2x adf was in a snow storm, in a Hawker, with a Russian co-captain, he made it look so easy.....
now I play with Glf550, it is so easy, but still frightening.......
I still maintain that Russian LOCS are narrower than the rest of the world, or is it just that in 24 you turn in so close, and at 90-110 degrees intercept.
Enjoy your visit Mike.
glf
Last time I did a 2x adf was in a snow storm, in a Hawker, with a Russian co-captain, he made it look so easy.....
now I play with Glf550, it is so easy, but still frightening.......
I still maintain that Russian LOCS are narrower than the rest of the world, or is it just that in 24 you turn in so close, and at 90-110 degrees intercept.
Enjoy your visit Mike.
glf
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NDB06
The NDB 06 is really a challenge in the hawker.
Since most NJE hawkers have only one , and the approach is a 2 ndb appraoch. Like mike said there is no FAF given, but the final controller while give you the ,approaching glide path, anf the , start descending, call. A bit weird but its a way of getting there.
Since most NJE hawkers have only one , and the approach is a 2 ndb appraoch. Like mike said there is no FAF given, but the final controller while give you the ,approaching glide path, anf the , start descending, call. A bit weird but its a way of getting there.
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Mike Jenvey, your effort in scanning and posting the app's is much appreciated! (natops a company colleague of yours?)
Don't mean to be splitting hairs, but - that 5 degree rule(or ROT?) is derived from which regulation? And to just how many miles out (and also out of what) would obstacle clearence be guaranteed in that instant?
Like I said - I landed out of it, so for all practical purposes what you state works but what would be the book answer?
Any takers?
Don't mean to be splitting hairs, but - that 5 degree rule(or ROT?) is derived from which regulation? And to just how many miles out (and also out of what) would obstacle clearence be guaranteed in that instant?
Like I said - I landed out of it, so for all practical purposes what you state works but what would be the book answer?
Any takers?
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lead in radial
What I think Mike is saying is that the lead in "bearing" off the OB, ie 256o is critical, and only allows 15o for the intercept.
The 5o is the permitted descent within the centreline of a published non procedure approach, (ie ADF).
So certainly start the turn at 16o lead in, and assuming you are at the correct heights on the profile, the start of the descent is within 5o. Remembering slight dip error on a ADF neadle display in a turn, a slightly earlier turn would not be a major problem.
The wind at 900-1600 ft, usually has a northery component so tightening the turn.
Cheers Mike,
glf
The 5o is the permitted descent within the centreline of a published non procedure approach, (ie ADF).
So certainly start the turn at 16o lead in, and assuming you are at the correct heights on the profile, the start of the descent is within 5o. Remembering slight dip error on a ADF neadle display in a turn, a slightly earlier turn would not be a major problem.
The wind at 900-1600 ft, usually has a northery component so tightening the turn.
Cheers Mike,
glf
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Natops
Have done a lot of flying in the past in Far Eastern Russia. I found that the NDB system used (at the approach end of each runway) was much better as a runway approach aid, than the aerodrome approach concept often used in Australia.
The message it would tell me was " here is the approach end of the runway you aim to land on".
I found it worked well.
The message it would tell me was " here is the approach end of the runway you aim to land on".
I found it worked well.
