Why is it that...
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Why is it that...
Why is it that after flying as Citation F/O, Cheyenne Captain for Corporate ops and the As VIP B737 F/O And now for the second company as VIP B727 F/O I cannot seem to be able to break out of the Corporate/ VIP world. I get offered jobs in this line of flying, but I donīt actually want to do this. Airlines thats where I want to go. Anybody experienced similar. I have heard that VIP market is hard to break in but hard to break out ... hahahah, never realised that this could be the case.
JJ slightly intrigued
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JJFlyer, when I read your message, I felt just like you. Have been in the VIP corporate world for "only" 3 years now, and amazingly have the feeling that I won't get out of it.
I have flown Falcon aircraft before and have just been offered a job on a Challenger 604.
Thought about joining the airlines, but the opportunity came up and I didn't turn it down.
Like yourselves wasn't what I really intended to do. Is it gonna be that way forever or what? Anyways, the grass always seems to be greener on the other side, huh?
Lots of people think that corporate flying is way nicer than airline but since I haven't experienced it, can't be so sure.....
Enjoy your flights and happy landings.
I have flown Falcon aircraft before and have just been offered a job on a Challenger 604.
Thought about joining the airlines, but the opportunity came up and I didn't turn it down.
Like yourselves wasn't what I really intended to do. Is it gonna be that way forever or what? Anyways, the grass always seems to be greener on the other side, huh?
Lots of people think that corporate flying is way nicer than airline but since I haven't experienced it, can't be so sure.....
Enjoy your flights and happy landings.
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Oooah... I am sad... Well I could be a lot worse. I have been working to get a BBJ contract but same thing donīt really want it. Did not really want to fly this B727 either but since I didnīt have anything else to do took it. It does beat working in the garden though.
To answer the question why do I want to get out. Well, No schedule, no rotation, no vacations, no privileges, no job security, no ID90īs. Standby for 24h a day 365 a year, on a pager and mobile all the time. Salary oh not all that good at all.
This new contract I have seems to be a lot better than the one before. But all the details are still in the air so to speak and I know from experience that working for people from Middle-East on VIP airplanes has some serious shortcomings.
Reasons enough ????
Oh yes and I want to fly more, a lot more. 120h a year just does not cut it for me !
JJ
[This message has been edited by JJflyer (edited 01 May 2001).]
To answer the question why do I want to get out. Well, No schedule, no rotation, no vacations, no privileges, no job security, no ID90īs. Standby for 24h a day 365 a year, on a pager and mobile all the time. Salary oh not all that good at all.
This new contract I have seems to be a lot better than the one before. But all the details are still in the air so to speak and I know from experience that working for people from Middle-East on VIP airplanes has some serious shortcomings.
Reasons enough ????
Oh yes and I want to fly more, a lot more. 120h a year just does not cut it for me !
JJ
[This message has been edited by JJflyer (edited 01 May 2001).]
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Where you based and what licence (FAA/JAA)have you got JJ ?
I would have though you'd get snapped up with a decent Uk airline..Air2000/Monarch etc etc...lots of flying!
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Regards JB007!
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I would have though you'd get snapped up with a decent Uk airline..Air2000/Monarch etc etc...lots of flying!
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Regards JB007!
[email protected]
Flight Ops,Crewing and Dispatch Moderator
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JJ
Joining any of the low cost crowd will get you a lot more flying, you'll be wanting less again soon enough! I don't know how the money would compare but at Easy its not the usual complaint.At least in the airlines your days off are not normally interfered with and you can do some planning.
It's horses for courses but I will almost certainly be sticking with airline flying(and its problems)from now on.At least I gave corporate a go so I would recommend that you try it in the other direction,you will have options either way.Try not to get bonded if at all possible(difficult I know),I have personal experience of the possible difficulties you may encounter if it doesn't work out.
There can be some difficulties transferring easily between these two types of job I think.Take your time and research your options carefully, people tend to ignore bad news once they've made their mind up.(eg The image Emirates has versus the reality seen elsewhere on pprune).
The upside is if you can't get an airline job now- you never will!
Good Luck
Joining any of the low cost crowd will get you a lot more flying, you'll be wanting less again soon enough! I don't know how the money would compare but at Easy its not the usual complaint.At least in the airlines your days off are not normally interfered with and you can do some planning.
It's horses for courses but I will almost certainly be sticking with airline flying(and its problems)from now on.At least I gave corporate a go so I would recommend that you try it in the other direction,you will have options either way.Try not to get bonded if at all possible(difficult I know),I have personal experience of the possible difficulties you may encounter if it doesn't work out.
There can be some difficulties transferring easily between these two types of job I think.Take your time and research your options carefully, people tend to ignore bad news once they've made their mind up.(eg The image Emirates has versus the reality seen elsewhere on pprune).
The upside is if you can't get an airline job now- you never will!
Good Luck
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Thank you Flanker. Nice post and had some very good points in it.
I have actually apllied to several airlines and I am going throught the system as I write. Also a couple have put me in their pilot pool after interviews,and will put me in school once vacancies open.
As you know It does take quite some time to complete a hiring process for a respectable airline and you canīt really expedite it.
So meanwhile I am waiting for a position or an answer to my papers and interviews... hahahah It is just SOOOOOOOOOOO boring. Instead of sitting around I decided to go and get a type rating. wonīt hurt you know. Thanks to the VIP jobs I can afford it as well.
JJ
I have actually apllied to several airlines and I am going throught the system as I write. Also a couple have put me in their pilot pool after interviews,and will put me in school once vacancies open.
As you know It does take quite some time to complete a hiring process for a respectable airline and you canīt really expedite it.
So meanwhile I am waiting for a position or an answer to my papers and interviews... hahahah It is just SOOOOOOOOOOO boring. Instead of sitting around I decided to go and get a type rating. wonīt hurt you know. Thanks to the VIP jobs I can afford it as well.
JJ
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To JJflyer and anyone else...
I expect to be hiring pilots for corporate flying in the not too distant future, and this particular thread is troubling me. I always feel a responsibility to see to it that employees are always happy with their jobs, and I always feel motivated to do whatever is possible to help with this.
To the corporate (or VIP) pilots, what you would like to see in corporate flying jobs that would help you to feel satisfied with this type of work?
To JJflyer, would a job at a fractional jet operator give you the flying hours and other benefits you're looking for?
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Safe flying to you...
[This message has been edited by Flight Safety (edited 15 June 2001).]
I expect to be hiring pilots for corporate flying in the not too distant future, and this particular thread is troubling me. I always feel a responsibility to see to it that employees are always happy with their jobs, and I always feel motivated to do whatever is possible to help with this.
To the corporate (or VIP) pilots, what you would like to see in corporate flying jobs that would help you to feel satisfied with this type of work?
To JJflyer, would a job at a fractional jet operator give you the flying hours and other benefits you're looking for?
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Safe flying to you...
[This message has been edited by Flight Safety (edited 15 June 2001).]
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Let me shortlist a few things.
1. Pay on time.
2. If a pilot is expected to be on call 24h / 365 a year it should reflect in the paycheck.
3. Rotation 2 on 1 off or something like that would be desirable. This would allow crew to go home or and plan ahead. Otherwise a schedule supplied atleast 2 weeks in advance. This does not usually work with VIP or corporate ops so a rotation it is.
. Benefits such as medicare, retirement, profit sharing etc.
For me. Well I consider flying important. The more flying and less sitting around the better. I can do that sitting around when I retire.
JJ
1. Pay on time.
2. If a pilot is expected to be on call 24h / 365 a year it should reflect in the paycheck.
3. Rotation 2 on 1 off or something like that would be desirable. This would allow crew to go home or and plan ahead. Otherwise a schedule supplied atleast 2 weeks in advance. This does not usually work with VIP or corporate ops so a rotation it is.
. Benefits such as medicare, retirement, profit sharing etc.
For me. Well I consider flying important. The more flying and less sitting around the better. I can do that sitting around when I retire.
JJ
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Just so you'll know, it will be many months from now before I hire anyone (unless my circumstances change more rapidly than I expect). I'm posting this because I got a resume in e-mail already, and I'm not ready to offer anything at this time.
I do however feel close enough to this situation (the need will arrive before too long), that I'm interested in gathering the details of what pilots would consider a very desirable working environment. When the need does arrive, I don't want to make a mistake and create a work environment that would be distressing, because of a lack of understanding about what would make the pilots happy employees.
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Safe flying to you...
I do however feel close enough to this situation (the need will arrive before too long), that I'm interested in gathering the details of what pilots would consider a very desirable working environment. When the need does arrive, I don't want to make a mistake and create a work environment that would be distressing, because of a lack of understanding about what would make the pilots happy employees.
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Safe flying to you...
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One issue regarding corporate flying that I'm not sure how to work out is the on-call situation. In most cases having at least one other person available solves the basic problem of an employee being able to count on uninterrupted time off when they're not on-call. When you're on-call, you're on-call, and when you're not on-call, you're not on-call.
As I see it for corporate flying, that would mean having at least 2 flight crews. That could work (the expenses could be justified) depending on how much flying has to be done. If there's more than one aircraft type being flown, then both flight crews could possibly be rated on both types. How would being type rated on both a GV and a 757-200 executive for example work out, assuming the GV would be flown (often spur of the moment) about 3 or 4 times as often as the 757 (with most of its flights being well planned in advance)? Would this be a suitable work enviroment?
I generally understand the issues with trying to fly more than one type in a given time period, but would flying 2 types create a serious safety problem?
Also, I strongly believe in providing good salaries and benefits, so I don't see a problem there.
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Safe flying to you...
[This message has been edited by Flight Safety (edited 17 June 2001).]
As I see it for corporate flying, that would mean having at least 2 flight crews. That could work (the expenses could be justified) depending on how much flying has to be done. If there's more than one aircraft type being flown, then both flight crews could possibly be rated on both types. How would being type rated on both a GV and a 757-200 executive for example work out, assuming the GV would be flown (often spur of the moment) about 3 or 4 times as often as the 757 (with most of its flights being well planned in advance)? Would this be a suitable work enviroment?
I generally understand the issues with trying to fly more than one type in a given time period, but would flying 2 types create a serious safety problem?
Also, I strongly believe in providing good salaries and benefits, so I don't see a problem there.
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Safe flying to you...
[This message has been edited by Flight Safety (edited 17 June 2001).]
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Flight Safety--
I would recommend that you have dedicated crews for each type. IMHO mixing two completely different types (as in your example) does not promote safety of operations. This was tried many years ago in a large corporation that I worked for, and NONE of the crews liked it. In fact, come to think of it, we had three types, B727, GII and FH227. Guess which type generated the most flight hours and actually PAID for itself? Yes, it was the FH227, based in Teheran. We averaged 145 hours per month with two Captains and one (rated) First Officer, six days per week. Was much younger then so the pace was not noticed.
I would recommend that you have dedicated crews for each type. IMHO mixing two completely different types (as in your example) does not promote safety of operations. This was tried many years ago in a large corporation that I worked for, and NONE of the crews liked it. In fact, come to think of it, we had three types, B727, GII and FH227. Guess which type generated the most flight hours and actually PAID for itself? Yes, it was the FH227, based in Teheran. We averaged 145 hours per month with two Captains and one (rated) First Officer, six days per week. Was much younger then so the pace was not noticed.
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I suppose having 3 flight crews would work, two for the GV and 1 for the 757. It would take 2 crews for the GV to solve the on-call duty issue, and with the 757 flights not being that frequent and mostly planned in advance, a fair amount of scheduled time off could be relied upon for that crew.
JJflyer mentioned his boredom at flying just 120 hours per year, which I understand. The 757 crew might fly twice that many hours per year, but that's all. The GV on the other hand would fly around 600 hours per year, but that flight time would have to be divided between the two crews.
So that leaves about 300 hours per year for each GV crew member and 200-250 hours per year for the 757 crew members. All three crews could enjoy scheduled time off, knowing that when they're off duty, they're off duty. Do you think this would be enough flight hours for each crew member to keep his or her skills up? It seems to me it would be.
Would this work?
[This message has been edited by Flight Safety (edited 17 June 2001).]
JJflyer mentioned his boredom at flying just 120 hours per year, which I understand. The 757 crew might fly twice that many hours per year, but that's all. The GV on the other hand would fly around 600 hours per year, but that flight time would have to be divided between the two crews.
So that leaves about 300 hours per year for each GV crew member and 200-250 hours per year for the 757 crew members. All three crews could enjoy scheduled time off, knowing that when they're off duty, they're off duty. Do you think this would be enough flight hours for each crew member to keep his or her skills up? It seems to me it would be.
Would this work?
[This message has been edited by Flight Safety (edited 17 June 2001).]
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Having crews X-qualified can be both good and bad.
I flew at a time A CE525, B737 and some turbo-props for a year or so. I did not find it diffucult to keep up to speed. Requires a lot of interest from pilot to keep reviewing abnormal procedures. I donīt think that operating a B757 and G IV or V with crews that are qualified on both airplaes would be a problem.
Safety is an important issue, but with proper initial training and continuous recurrency training this would surely not be a problem. A proficiency check in each type every year. That adds up to a procheck every 6 months for any given crewmember. Now the question would be if it was cheaper to have separate crews for both types as training is not cheap.
I know for a fact that they send their crews for type specific recurrency training once every 2 years and have them obtain a type rating every year in another aircraft of the same category and class. What I remeber is that heavy iron bizjet types and recurrency is horenndously expencive. GIV @ over 30000 USD initial and 12000-15000 USD for recurrency. When a B747 type can be obtained for 7900 USD makes a big difference.
JJ
I flew at a time A CE525, B737 and some turbo-props for a year or so. I did not find it diffucult to keep up to speed. Requires a lot of interest from pilot to keep reviewing abnormal procedures. I donīt think that operating a B757 and G IV or V with crews that are qualified on both airplaes would be a problem.
Safety is an important issue, but with proper initial training and continuous recurrency training this would surely not be a problem. A proficiency check in each type every year. That adds up to a procheck every 6 months for any given crewmember. Now the question would be if it was cheaper to have separate crews for both types as training is not cheap.
I know for a fact that they send their crews for type specific recurrency training once every 2 years and have them obtain a type rating every year in another aircraft of the same category and class. What I remeber is that heavy iron bizjet types and recurrency is horenndously expencive. GIV @ over 30000 USD initial and 12000-15000 USD for recurrency. When a B747 type can be obtained for 7900 USD makes a big difference.
JJ
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OK, let's suppose that two total flight crews are hired and all 4 pilots are type rated on both aircraft. The cost of initial training and recurrency would be the same regardless for a GV. I haven't checked, but would assume that a 757 type rating would be in the ballpark of a 747 rating.
If the limit of type ratings for each pilot is held to only 2 types, would this overburden the pilots with training, systems study and emergency procedures? The examples given by both of you guys (JJ and 411) include at least 3 types, which I imagine would be difficult and no fun.
I'm looking at roughly 800 hours total per year for both types, which is about 400 hours per year for each crew member. Would 400 hours per year be a good balance of time spent flying, and time made available for system study and procedures familiarization, plus some time to relax with the family?
Looking at costs only, I'd prefer to hire only 2 crews, but if it comes down to safety issues and crew satisfaction, I'll hire 3 crews. With 4 pilots, I'd still have a 3rd crew member available for the GV for the occasional long haul overseas, but these should normally be planned flights and not spur of the moment flights.
As a side note, I do wish that Gulfstream would fix the reliability issues with the GV. That aircraft will need to have a very high dispatch reliability for my needs, plus I'd hate to see the pilots having to deal with constant MEL situations and schedule changes because of the aircraft's unavailablity due to maintenance issues.
If the limit of type ratings for each pilot is held to only 2 types, would this overburden the pilots with training, systems study and emergency procedures? The examples given by both of you guys (JJ and 411) include at least 3 types, which I imagine would be difficult and no fun.
I'm looking at roughly 800 hours total per year for both types, which is about 400 hours per year for each crew member. Would 400 hours per year be a good balance of time spent flying, and time made available for system study and procedures familiarization, plus some time to relax with the family?
Looking at costs only, I'd prefer to hire only 2 crews, but if it comes down to safety issues and crew satisfaction, I'll hire 3 crews. With 4 pilots, I'd still have a 3rd crew member available for the GV for the occasional long haul overseas, but these should normally be planned flights and not spur of the moment flights.
As a side note, I do wish that Gulfstream would fix the reliability issues with the GV. That aircraft will need to have a very high dispatch reliability for my needs, plus I'd hate to see the pilots having to deal with constant MEL situations and schedule changes because of the aircraft's unavailablity due to maintenance issues.
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FlightSafety--
Would a GIV-SP work for your needs? From reports that I have received from the NBAA the -IV is a much more reliable aircraft.
As for the pilots....with two ratings/qualifications at the same time, have you considered the insurance angle? Your underwriter may have objections. Seems to me that you would also increase your training costs big time.
Would a GIV-SP work for your needs? From reports that I have received from the NBAA the -IV is a much more reliable aircraft.
As for the pilots....with two ratings/qualifications at the same time, have you considered the insurance angle? Your underwriter may have objections. Seems to me that you would also increase your training costs big time.
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411A, agreed on the training costs, however it looks like training costs for one more type are less than another salary (plus benefits). So that's 4 salaries with benefits plus 8 training costs vs. 6 salaries with benefits plus 6 training costs. I'll have to check the insurance.
From reading the above posts, it seems there are two major issues flying corporate-
VIP (excluding the salary and benefit issues) that I'd like to solve. These are the on-duty issue (pager, cell phone, on-call 24/7/365, no planned time off, etc), and the low flying hours issue.
So one possible solution is to have 3 flight crews rated on one type each, with about 300 annual hours for each GV crew member, and 200-240 hours for each 757 crew member. The other solution is 2 flight crews that are dual rated, with about 400-450 annual hours. I'm sure there are other possible solutions.
A solution that does not appear acceptable, is 2 flight crews single type rated, with 600 annual hours for the GV crew, and 200-240 for the 757 crew. This solution would be fairly easy on the 757 crew (except for the low annual hours), but pretty hard on the GV crew (because of the spur of the moment flight needs).
The closer I get to these needs, the harder I'll work the numbers, but at this stage I like the 2 crew dual type arrangement the best, followed by the 3 crew single type arrangement. I think either would work, but feel the 3 crew arrangement would be somewhat more costly (excluding the insurance considerations).
The GIVSP will not make Europe from Texas, especially flying west, without a fuel stop. But then again I think those flights would be fairly rare. Reliability will be very important, so by the time these things start to happen, if the GV isn't fixed, I guess I'll have to look at the GIVSP (or a Falcon).
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Safe flying to you...
From reading the above posts, it seems there are two major issues flying corporate-
VIP (excluding the salary and benefit issues) that I'd like to solve. These are the on-duty issue (pager, cell phone, on-call 24/7/365, no planned time off, etc), and the low flying hours issue.
So one possible solution is to have 3 flight crews rated on one type each, with about 300 annual hours for each GV crew member, and 200-240 hours for each 757 crew member. The other solution is 2 flight crews that are dual rated, with about 400-450 annual hours. I'm sure there are other possible solutions.
A solution that does not appear acceptable, is 2 flight crews single type rated, with 600 annual hours for the GV crew, and 200-240 for the 757 crew. This solution would be fairly easy on the 757 crew (except for the low annual hours), but pretty hard on the GV crew (because of the spur of the moment flight needs).
The closer I get to these needs, the harder I'll work the numbers, but at this stage I like the 2 crew dual type arrangement the best, followed by the 3 crew single type arrangement. I think either would work, but feel the 3 crew arrangement would be somewhat more costly (excluding the insurance considerations).
The GIVSP will not make Europe from Texas, especially flying west, without a fuel stop. But then again I think those flights would be fairly rare. Reliability will be very important, so by the time these things start to happen, if the GV isn't fixed, I guess I'll have to look at the GIVSP (or a Falcon).
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Safe flying to you...
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FlightSafety--
Would seem to me that:
One dedicated crew for the 757....
One dedicated crew for the GV...(or GIVSP)
plus another Capt for the GV...
The third Captain would be the "swing guy" Captain or First officer, as the need indicates.
Noted last year in SNN a GV parked on the ramp, and the handling agent mentioned that the OWNER was beside himself because...the number one engine had seized at 30 West...on a brand new aircraft.
Think the GIV-SP would be your best bet, the GV has MANY problems (according to NBAA, and I am a member).
The Falcon is a good aircraft but, if you ever have to buy parts, prepare to pay BIG TIME.
Would seem to me that:
One dedicated crew for the 757....
One dedicated crew for the GV...(or GIVSP)
plus another Capt for the GV...
The third Captain would be the "swing guy" Captain or First officer, as the need indicates.
Noted last year in SNN a GV parked on the ramp, and the handling agent mentioned that the OWNER was beside himself because...the number one engine had seized at 30 West...on a brand new aircraft.
Think the GIV-SP would be your best bet, the GV has MANY problems (according to NBAA, and I am a member).
The Falcon is a good aircraft but, if you ever have to buy parts, prepare to pay BIG TIME.
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Flightsafety and 411A.
I've been a corporate pilot for about 20 years and have always been crossed qualified on our aircraft.
As far as how many pilots to hire for two airplanes, the NBAA recommends 3 pilots per aircraft as an average. Our department, a major U.S.corporation, has 5 GV's and 2 F70's. We currently have 26 line pilots and 5 managers flying our fleet worldwide. All pilots are dual qualified and we have no problems handling 2 different aircraft types. Several pilots in our "country club" also fly in the U.S. Air Force Reserves, so they are actually flying 3 types.
What you need to look at is how many hours you plan on flying per year and what kind of trips (duty/flight hours) you plan on doing. With the GV's, we frequently add a third pilot on long flights (12+ hours) so our pilot/aircraft ratio is higher than the average.
As far as training costs go, it's usually cheaper. At FlightSafety, if you have a training contract, it allows you to pay for training on the most expensive aircraft in your fleet, and the cheaper aircraft is "free". I know this is true with FlightSafety International but this may not be true if you also use FlightSafety-Boeing. I don't know about insurance costs being any higher, I think they are only interested in how, and how much, you train.
I've been a corporate pilot for about 20 years and have always been crossed qualified on our aircraft.
As far as how many pilots to hire for two airplanes, the NBAA recommends 3 pilots per aircraft as an average. Our department, a major U.S.corporation, has 5 GV's and 2 F70's. We currently have 26 line pilots and 5 managers flying our fleet worldwide. All pilots are dual qualified and we have no problems handling 2 different aircraft types. Several pilots in our "country club" also fly in the U.S. Air Force Reserves, so they are actually flying 3 types.
What you need to look at is how many hours you plan on flying per year and what kind of trips (duty/flight hours) you plan on doing. With the GV's, we frequently add a third pilot on long flights (12+ hours) so our pilot/aircraft ratio is higher than the average.
As far as training costs go, it's usually cheaper. At FlightSafety, if you have a training contract, it allows you to pay for training on the most expensive aircraft in your fleet, and the cheaper aircraft is "free". I know this is true with FlightSafety International but this may not be true if you also use FlightSafety-Boeing. I don't know about insurance costs being any higher, I think they are only interested in how, and how much, you train.